Evangelion Rebuild 3.0: You can (not) Redo [Evangelion Shin Gekijouban: Q]

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You mean CHARACTER BUILDING, right?

There are no "filler" episodes of Eva. Each episode serves a distinct purpose. If you doubt me, give me an episode, I'll tell you its purpose.

I see no purpose in that episode of fail new military mech or whatever. n there is more episode like that.

[Reckoner]

Lol well you can answer too, but I have more than a few reasons for this.

This episode was all about showing why everyone is relying on the Evangelions. The other options are either ineffectual or faulty. World building, basically saying that others are not all around trying to sit on their asses and saying "please save us eva's!"

In the good old days, episodes that did not explicitly move the plot forward were spent on some good characterization and world building. Helping the setting and stuff.

The movie on the other hand decided that spending a huge amount of time on Toiji and friends silly antics was good material.

[Archon_Wing]

The episode about Jet Alone (God damn, I can't remember the name) which name it was adds nothing much to the plot in and of itself. However, it's largely an episode to bring about Misato's character, and also hammer in the fact that NERV is the centerpiece for saving the world. It also implies that there's someone out there that also wants the Evangelions to hold the monopoly on world security.

If we went for true filler, I would pick up "Magma Diver", due to the weaker budgeting and somewhat concentrating on fanservice, though it's still technically adding development for Asuka and Shinji's relations. I'd also single out the episode about the computer virus angel, though that develops Ritsuko and sets up stuff for the end of her character arc. But nobody cares about Ritsuko anyways.

For the most part the series doesn't really have "filler". It wasn't all psychological melodrama like many would remember.

[Vicious108]

The episode with the wannabe alternative Evangelion was one of my favorites in the first half. Great development for Misato and Ritsuko and the former's relationship with Shinji, valuable insight into the state of the world and the importance and influence of Nerv and the Evas, as well as into Gendo's character with his unscrupulous tactics of outright jeopardizing any possible competition. Also, Houchu Ohtsuka. So yeah, all in all a very solid episode, and if you can't appreciate quality storytelling just because it isn't advancing the "main plot", then maybe Evangelion isn't the show for you.

Also, Magma Diver had the closest thing to a "dere" Asuka moment in the TV series, labeling it filler would be a sin. And the "fanservice" was part of the development of Shinji and Asuka's relationship and of the tension between them. There's a reason one of the last things Shinji sees before deciding on Instrumentality in EoE is Asuka in revealing clothing.

The only episode I would understand being considered filler-esque would be episode 14, since, you know, half of it was a recap. But the other half did contain foreshadowing for Rei's character, so even that one couldn't exactly just be skipped.

Oh, and I care about Ritsuko.

[Archon_Wing]

I didn't mind the recap episode, and I usually hate them. But it was done with that kind of exceptional directing of the series that lets me not care about the nitpicking.

The first half of the series is very rich in character building and development, and is pretty underrated as such. I'm guessing it's because everyone seems to remember the series for the crazy imagery of the last few episodes, and hence the image of the series as mindfuck psychobabble, while in reality, it actually is a good story and not some kind of nonsensical BS.

[Guardian Enzo]

I loved those character and world-building eps in the first cour of Eva - in some ways, more than the "important" eps in the second. In any case, the payoff loses its punch without those early episodes to give some context to the story.

This cycle repeats itself over and over. I heard the same complaints about Seirei no Moribito, about Tsuritama, about E7: AO - it seems as if people want a dessert that's all frosting and no cake.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This cycle repeats itself over and over. I heard the same complaints about Seirei no Moribito, about Tsuritama, about E7: AO - it seems as if people want a dessert that's all frosting and no cake.

I have nothing against character and world building episodes otherwise I wouldn't even be defending it here in the case of NGE (And series like Serei no Moribito did this great too), but the complaints I and a lot of others have against E7: ao were that these episodes were just plain poor.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I loved those character and world-building eps in the first cour of Eva - in some ways, more than the "important" eps in the second. In any case, the payoff loses its punch without those early episodes to give some context to the story.

This cycle repeats itself over and over. I heard the same complaints about Seirei no Moribito, about Tsuritama, about E7: AO - it seems as if people want a dessert that's all frosting and no cake.

Indeed. I don't know about those other series, but it always baffles me when I hear that complaint about Eva. Such detractors fail to realize that the later episodes would have nowhere near the same impact without those so-called "filler" episodes. The "plot-relevant" episodes were all about watching the dissection and crumbling of the characters' foundations, which would be basically meaningless if we hadn't gotten to know them beforehand over the course of the first half of the series. People do seem to appreciate the deconstructive nature of the series for the most part, but some forget that something must first be built if the deconstruction is to have any emotional weight behind it.

Plus, those character building episodes still possessed so many interesting insights and commentary on human nature. That's actually one of the things that separates the original from Rebuild to me as well. Rebuild does spend time on what do seem like character building scenes on a surface level, but they're generally so vapid and lacking in true substance that they do feel like filler this time around.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I have nothing against character and world building episodes otherwise I wouldn't even be defending it here in the case of NGE (And series like Serei no Moribito did this great too), but the complaints I and a lot of others have against E7: ao were that these episodes were just plain poor.

90% of the complaints that these episodes were "poor" cited the exact same reasons I'm talking about.

Of course, the fact is that the current run on AO has completely validated everything it's done up to this point, but that discussion is already happening on another thread so I'll leave it at that.

[Yot-chan]

Look...I'm getting total deja vu here...

In case you don't know, back in '97, people who liked the TV series ending were totally attacking EoE for being visually stunning, but lacking the depth of the TV Episodes 25 and 26.

Me, I liked TV episodes 25 and 26. But I also liked D&R and EoE. Some people said I was "superficial" because of that. Some people even said I wasn't a "real" Eva fan because I didn't denounce the movie(s).

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[BetoJR]

Oh, God. Don't remind me of EoE... I still get nightmares every now and then.

[Vicious108]

As far as I'm concerned, EoE was the pinnacle of Evangelion. It showcased Anno's superb talent for directing better than any of the TV series' episodes, had many of the very best and most powerful scenes in the series and provided an extremely bold and at the same time fitting conclusion to the themes the series had been built upon. The notion that it simplified the conflicts portrayed in the original ending merely because it presented them alongside actual visuals and the outward reality of events is ludicrous. And thankfully, not one I've heard often. In fact, I often hear the exact opposite - that it was even more incomprehensible and "made no sense". So yeah, not at all like comparing the original Evangelion (which includes both the TV series and EoE) to what Rebuild is doing now. EoE didn't dumb anything down, not to mention it's quite clear that it was the intended ending all along, otherwise portions of it wouldn't be present in the TV series' preview for episode 25.

[BetoJR]

Still. Nightmares. Yeah.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

As far as I'm concerned, EoE was the pinnacle of Evangelion. It showcased Anno's superb talent for directing better than any of the TV series' episodes, had many of the very best and most powerful scenes in the series and provided an extremely bold and at the same time fitting conclusion to the themes the series had been built upon. The notion that it simplified the conflicts portrayed in the original ending merely because it presented them alongside actual visuals and the outward reality of events is ludicrous. And thankfully, not one I've heard often. In fact, I often hear the exact opposite - that it was even more incomprehensible and "made no sense". So yeah, not at all like comparing the original Evangelion (which includes both the TV series and EoE) to what Rebuild is doing now. EoE didn't dumb anything down, not to mention it's quite clear that it was the intended ending all along, otherwise portions of it wouldn't be present in the TV series' preview for episode 25.

You're one of the lucky ones then. Like Yot-chan I've grown accustomed to seeing the more snob members of the fandom dismiss End of Evangelion as pandering to those lesser beings that were unable to comprehend the sheer genius of the last episodes of a show that ran out of budget. I think that nowadays most of that stigma is gone but a few years back it looked quite like the hate train for the new movies looks today.

Do mind that I'm still not completely sold on the new movies myself: Asuka got the shaft quite a bit with her new role and Toji takes the prize of being rendered mostly useless with those same changes. On the other hand Mary so far looks to be nothing more than otaku pandering and a waste of precious runtime but I've been known to dislike the movie format for the toll it takes on character development so I'm at least willing to give this remake the benefit of the doubt untill the end of the 3rd movie.

[Reckoner]

Most of the people who said that were people who thought EoE was Anno's big "F U" to the audience for pressuring him to come out with more evangelion, which is simply ridiculous.

I do not think linking the two is a very accurate comparison. Especialyl considering what I read about in the interviews for Rebuild, I got the impression that Anno didn't really care about having Mari as a character, but was heavily pressured by his staff to put her in, particularly the writerr Enokido if I recall correctly. The reasons why are not that hard to discern. They probably thought, "lets have another cute heroine! Oh wait, she has to be well written too? It'll work itself out!"

And why should we surprised by what Enokido has done to this film? We have him to thank for the entire catastrophe that was that ending:

Excerpt 1: http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/226/enokido1.png

Enokido: Because "Rebuild of Evangelion" is basically a reconstruction of the TV series, we presume that sooner or later Rei II will die. If Shinji-kun were to save Rei II it would mean a significant departure from the TV series. However, I believed that the last scene of the film had to be an earth-shattering climax. When I had this idea, it was impossible for me not to communicate it. I remember, on the third day [of the sessions], performing a solo play in front of everyone using hand gestures and body movements entitled "this is how it ends!"

-- So, in this play, you performed actions like [Shinji] pulling [Rei] up and out [of the Angel]?

Enokido: Right. Rei gets completely absorbed by the Angel. It's just as though she has died and entered the netherworld. The audience is thinking that Rei is dead. Despite this, Shinji pilots Unit-01 again in order to save Rei. He cries out "Ayanami!" and reaches forward, with an awful noise, through the front of the entry plug. He must establish some means of descending to the underworld. Finally, having grabbed (the unclothed) Rei’s hand, he pulls her out with a sudden movement. I feel I demonstrated this method of rescue with all my might. I completely transformed into Shinji. I think everyone was staring at me very coldly (laugh).

Excerpt 2: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9607/enokido2.png

Enokido: ... I felt the development of the second half of the TV series was incredible. Only, I was a little saddened by death of Rei II and her replacement by Rei III. For myself, I wanted that Rei who had repatedly shared battles and encounters with Shinji to go on to the end. But the original scenario for "Break" was, naturally, similar to the TV series, with Rei II self-destructing. On the morning of the third day [the production team] stayed together, I suddenly had the thought: "What if, in the final scene, Shinji happened to save Rei? ... It would be incredible!" I worked myself up into a frenzy. Among the reasons for my enthusiasm was the recognition that this would completely overturn the expectations of the audience. When we speak of the most important “catharsis” provided by film, we might say that a film creates in the audience a sense that the characters are in danger, only to overturn it: we go from, “this character is in danger and surely will be badly hurt,” to “it can’t be!” This constitutes, so to speak, a betrayal of the audience in the form of a sudden change. This “salvation” is the essence of the final scene.

Excerpt 3: http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7826/enokido3.png

[Note: I couldn't quite work out the complete meaning of the first two sentences of this part without knowing the question Enokido was asked, so I left them out. They seem to relate to Anno and his assistant Todoroki "taking over" the concept.]

Enokido: ... At that time I had only decided that Shinji would save Rei II. Afterwards, as I was performing and speaking more or less off the top of my head, I was entering a kind of trance state. As is typical of me, when I reached the climactic scene where [Shinji] cries “Ayanami!” and begins to walk forward, just as I grabbed [Rei’s] hand and pulled [her] upwards, I suddenly came back to myself (laugh). “Now what happens?” I wondered. Now, in the film, when Shinji saves Rei, Kaworu-kun suddenly descends from heaven and impales him with a spear. When I was enthusiastically performing the "saving" scene, I couldn't envision anything except Kaworu-kun stabbing me with something sharp and screaming "That's Enough! Act Responsibly!" (laugh)

EDIT:

Oh and things like...

-- I have a feeling that those ideas influenced the final film. What other discussions did you have about Mari?

Enokido: We didn't just discuss her character traits, but we were also tangled up in discussing to what extent she should appear in the film. I remember that this caused everyone a great deal of distress. If we wanted to increase her appearances we could, but, because we were limited by the running time of the film, the number of scenes depicting the activity of other characters would be reduced. Even watching the completed film, there are selections we made at the last minute. If we added more Mari, we would have to further cut strong scenes involving Rei and Asuka, but if we didn't, then there would have been no point to putting Mari in the second film [to begin with]. In the end I think we were impressed with her character and have high expectations for her in the future.

I remember digging up tons of bull crap decisions in the interviews, but eh.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

do not think linking the two is a very accurate comparison.

Right. Back then, detractors said that EoE was eye-candy that lacked the depth of the series, and did terrible things to the characters. Nothing in common with detractors' view of Rebuild at all.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

the original Evangelion (which includes both the TV series and EoE)

You might not say that if you'd been watching the series in '96, is all I'm saying.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Right. Back then, detractors said that EoE was eye-candy that lacked the depth of the series, and did terrible things to the characters. Nothing in common with detractors' view of Rebuild at all.

If you're trying to compare in a very superficial manner.

However, in the end, the bigger issues with the film come down to the basics like pacing, proper amounts of development, etc.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Right. Back then, detractors said that EoE was eye-candy that lacked the depth of the series, and did terrible things to the characters. Nothing in common with detractors' view of Rebuild at all.

Except the "terrible things" in EoE were entirely different in nature from the ones in Rebuild. In the latter those complaints refer to how little proper development the characters received, whereas in EoE they were all about the characters' tragic fates, which certain fans didn't appreciate and thus foolishly assumed to be a sort of revenge against the fanbase on Anno's part.

In other words, in Rebuild what's terrible is how the characters were written, whereas in EoE what was allegedly terrible was how the characters met mostly unhappy conclusions after all their efforts in the TV series. But if you thought the downward spiral that was the last third of the TV series was ever headed anywhere warm and inviting, your expectations were very much warped.

So yeah, when people complain about Asuka being terrible in Rebuild it's not about her meeting that terrible fate so much as it is about how underexposed and poorly written she was in general and before the incident happened. (Soryu) Asuka is my favorite character in the series, but I still loved EoE even though she was skewered and eaten to death in it, because her role and scenes in it were fantastic. And obviously, I can't say the same for Shikinami's in 2.0. So yeah, big difference there, and, as Reckoner said, that comparison only works on a very superficial level.

And, perhaps more importantly, either way I couldn't care less about what other people allegedly thought of EoE way back then; it isn't relevant to my own analysis of the film in any way.

You might not say that if you'd been watching the series in '96, is all I'm saying.

Or, you know, I'd still hold the same view, because the quality of a work of art does not change based on completely extraneous circumstances like that. It doesn't matter when I watch something or what the alleged majority thinks about it - those things don't change a work's contents or merits in any way.

[Archon_Wing]

EoE having strong imagery that was disturbing was sort of the point. It wasn't supposed to be easy to watch, but I can't fault anyone for being too uncomfortable for not wanting to deal with such things. But it really provides clear and concrete answers to round out the plan and still leaves much to thought.

At the very least it adds a lot more depth of a compelling nature and stayed consistent thematically. I don't think such a strong argument can be made in Rebuild's favor-- it just doesn't offer as much to chew on. Even on its own, the plot just doesn't hold.

TV ending was nice, but I don't think it's complete without the movie.

[Roger Rambo]