U.S. Politics Thread

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Are you referring to me or Kaijo? I understand that it can be annoying for the clueless to have overly strong opinions on things, but I don't think I need a thorough understanding of energy sources to say 'solar power is cool and has potential.'

No, not you. I think solar/wind/geothermal is massively cool. I also understand the power grid needs substantial work to handle many many small energy generators, and that solarizing a home is a substantial capital investment - something the "solar power wheeeee!!!!" people don't seem to grasp.

Electric cars are massively cool. But just like way back when gasoline carriages were new, finding refuel points was a hobby all unto itself and only rich people had the carriages. Unlike now, there was a fair infrastructure of transport choices and people walked more. We need mass transit in a thick net across the country - that is going to be a painful process. Personally, I'm as much for mass transit because of safety as I am for energy. People are getting too stupid to drive

[Solace]

Since you chose to make this an issue I will happily retort.

I deleted your thread since it's mainly aimed at me and my quote. I got your message, you've stated it a lot. However I wasn't bringing gun control up, at least not directly. I just didn't want to take only one snip from his quote, because it would be disingenuous.

Whatever opinion you hold about guns, or other major issues, I hope you understand that it's not just about "us" versus "them". People who advocate gun rights aren't all gun crazy idiots, and people who want gun control aren't all trying to make you submit to the new world order.

Ultimately, what people want is safety and peace of mind. Some people feel they are safer with a gun. Some people feel they are safer if no one has guns. Others believe in non-lethal weaponry, or better mental health, or at least some checks on the idiots running the asylum.

When someone like Jones, Beck, Limbaugh, or Piers, Feinstein, or whoever gets a moment to speak, they're constantly drumming the beat of fear. Fear those immigrants, fear those mentally ill, those stressed, those poor, those rich, those terrorists, those "others". Fear the shadows of government, of military, of regimes. Fear those who are in power, doing things you don't agree with. Do believe in this messaging, and stand firm in the conviction that you are right no matter how wrong someone says you are. Ignore facts, except selective ones that confirm what you already know. And remember, they're out to get you. It's you against them. They're coming.

Or something like that. The truth is, people can be quite weak in times of panic. They'll often say and do things they normally wouldn't. And there are charlatans who feed off of that.

I've already stated my opinion on gun control. I believe that owning a gun is a fair right, but it needs to be treated with the respect and humility and responsibility that such power grants. We need a society that understands the gun, and understands each other. We need to stop acting like Monsters are Due on Maple Street. And that was the point which ended the incredible segment that Stewart gave that night.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Today's standard appears to be Short scale (American) thousand (1,000), million (1,000,000), billion (1,000,000,000), trillion (1,000,000,000,0000), quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000), quintillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000), etc....

Though some countries still use I think is called Long scale (European) which is different after a million (1,000,000) into milliard (1,000,000,000), billion (1,000,000,000,000), billiard (1,000,000,000,000,000), trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000), etc....

I think by European you meant rest of the world and by American you mean USA-only (unless our Canadian fellows do use short scale).

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I think by European you meant rest of the world and by American you mean USA-only (unless our Canadian fellows do use short scale).

Um, no, you're pretty far off the mark here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_an..._and_languages

The majority of the countries in the world actually do indeed use the short scale. Long scale usage is primarily limited to Spanish and French speaking regions, while many Asian countries uses neither, as they have their own numbering system.

As far as Canada goes, they use both - short scale for the English speaking regions, and long scale for the French regions.

[DonQuigleone]

In Ireland and Britain it's short scale. Used to be long scale though.

I prefer Short-scale myself. Fits in better with the SI prefixes, which change every 10^3.

The map in the article is informative. The only parts that use long scale are mainland Europe (Excluding former USSR, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece) and Latin America (except Brazil) and France's former African colonies.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Solace

I deleted your thread since it's mainly aimed at me and my quote. I got your message, you've stated it a lot. However I wasn't bringing gun control up, at least not directly. I just didn't want to take only one snip from his quote, because it would be disingenuous.

It was directed at John Stewart, not you and that should have been obvious.

Whatever opinion you hold about guns, or other major issues, I hope you understand that it's not just about "us" versus "them". People who advocate gun rights aren't all gun crazy idiots, and people who want gun control aren't all trying to make you submit to the new world order.

I don't need some New World Order boogeyman to see what is happening in this country. The laws that are being passed, the militarization of the police, the surveillance all around us, it speaks for itself and that was the point.
For John Stewart to try and pretend that disarmament through gun control isn't part of the continued move into dystopia is to be ignorant of history, and yes, I am leveling that claim against him.

Ultimately, what people want is safety and peace of mind. Some people feel they are safer with a gun. Some people feel they are safer if no one has guns. Others believe in non-lethal weaponry, or better mental health, or at least some checks on the idiots running the asylum.

If no laws came from such sentiments that would be fine, but the problem is, when John Stewart makes the types of assinine comments like the one you quoted him saying, he takes a side in the issue, and because he has influence, aids and abeits the continued erosion of our rights that he claims isn't happening.
What i posted pointed that despite the facts, Stewart was still pushing an agenda to the detriment of his audience.

When someone like Jones, Beck, Limbaugh, or Piers, Feinstein, or whoever gets a moment to speak, they're constantly drumming the beat of fear. Fear those immigrants, fear those mentally ill, those stressed, those poor, those rich, those terrorists, those "others". Fear the shadows of government, of military, of regimes. Fear those who are in power, doing things you don't agree with. Do believe in this messaging, and stand firm in the conviction that you are right no matter how wrong someone says you are. Ignore facts, except selective ones that confirm what you already know. And remember, they're out to get you. It's you against them. They're coming.

The difference is when the actions of government justify the anger and concern of those that are paying attention.
Thus the reason I posted the pictures of the militarized police.
Remember, the cops have no obligation to protect you or me or anyone else in the US according to the Supreme Court, so why do they need all that military hardware?
Who are they going to war with?
This issue goes far beyond gun control, this goes right to the issue of freedom verses security.
A totalitarian state is the most secure type of state you can live in from a violent crime perspective provided the state doesn't single you out as an enemy or you don't mind being a slave.
Without freedom, is life worth living?
My answer is, no.

So you see Solace, for some of us it isn't about fear as John Stewart claims.
It is about demanding our politicians adhere to the principles of the oath of office they took. The constitution is clear, it is a contract, and when they swear to uphold it they are signing that verbal contract and we expect them to follow through with it.
When they don't, as when they attempt to ban firearms, or attack abortion rights, or free speech, or whatever attack on our natural rights they are attempting (and both major parties do it), we have an obligation to call them on it.
So John's statement is wrong.

I've already stated my opinion on gun control. I believe that owning a gun is a fair right, but it needs to be treated with the respect and humility and responsibility that such power grants. We need a society that understands the gun, and understands each other. We need to stop acting like Monsters are Due on Maple Street. And that was the point which ended the incredible segment that Stewart gave that night.

The problem I have with Stewart's monologue in that segment is that it fails to address the fact that the concern isn't fantasy it is justified.
To use your example, we aren't in a "Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" scenario here. It isn't about people chasing after their shadows finding monsters from their imaginations in unsupportable claims against what is happening.
We have ample evidence to support the reality that politicians intend on disarming the population for irrational and illogical assumptions.
Cuomo has done it in New York, Oregon is considering it, as are other states.
Using the Twighlight Zone for another metaphor, it would seem that if anything we're in the "Obsolete Man" scenario where the state has become too big for its own good and logic and reason is no longer considered valuable when pitted against the ideology of one political group or another.
As I said earlier, we are corporatist society where money and power mean more than the rights or freedoms of the individual and that is the problem.

[Triple_R]

In fairness to GundamFan0083, I saw the pictures he put up before, and why police officers need that much heavy duty hardware and guns and even tanks is a bit beyond me.

Yeah, exactly who are they going to war with? You only need this much armament if you're actually going to war with a serious oppositional force. You certainly don't need anything remotely close to this to take down a lone wolf. If this is to deal with the Timothy McVeighs and Adam Lanzas of the world, it's a bit much.


Now, it's quite possible, even likely, that this is just standard issue US government "go REALLY big, or go home" sort of thinking where "too big to fail" is nothing less than a philosophy on life itself. But when you have police officers going around like that, it's going to cause paranoia if they're dealing with anything short of hundreds of people rioting and burning buildings down.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In fairness to GundamFan0083, I saw the pictures he put up before, and why police officers need that much heavy duty hardware and guns and even tanks is a bit beyond me.

Military police in the US isn't meant for policing civilians. Law enforcement has to rely on it's own and state level resources first.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In fairness to GundamFan0083, I saw the pictures he put up before, and why police officers need that much heavy duty hardware and guns and even tanks is a bit beyond me.

Yeah, exactly who are they going to war with? You only need this much armament if you're actually going to war with a serious oppositional force. You certainly don't need anything remotely close to this to take down a lone wolf. If this is to deal with the Timothy McVeighs and Adam Lanzas of the world, it's a bit much.


Now, it's quite possible, even likely, that this is just standard issue US government "go REALLY big, or go home" sort of thinking where "too big to fail" is nothing less than a philosophy on life itself. But when you have police officers going around like that, it's going to cause paranoia if they're dealing with anything short of hundreds of people rioting and burning buildings down.

Well, to me, it's more of an issue of principle. We protect important officials with weapons, and we protect banks with weapons. And certainly these things could be abused. A guard could easily go crazy and shoot them all.

So if we don't let people protect themselves with weapons, it's sorta implying that elected officials and money (banks) are more important than a citizen's own life.

Now, of course there are reasonable limits. We don't need tanks to defend our own homes, but as you suggested, the need for that kind of armament for the authorities is a bit hard to comprehend.

Anyhow, just feel free to VM me, since this topic exploded in our faces a few weeks ago, and will likely be pruned here.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Bri

Military police in the US isn't meant for policing civilians. Law enforcement has to rely on it's own and state level resources first.

We don't have "military police" in the US - those pictures are of *civilian* police who have scooped up excess armaments because the military industrial complex needs consumers.

If you ask, they'll come up with scenarios of why they "need" that stuff but police have a bad history of misapplication of any toys they are given.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Vexx

We don't have "military police" in the US - those pictures are of *civilian* police who have scooped up excess armaments because the military industrial complex needs consumers.

I think bri probably thought those were military police as in actual MPs, which we do have.

Actual military police have no jurisdiction outside of military bases in the US, they also perform additional duties beyond what a civilian police would normally do.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vexx

No, not you. I think solar/wind/geothermal is massively cool. I also understand the power grid needs substantial work to handle many many small energy generators, and that solarizing a home is a substantial capital investment - something the "solar power wheeeee!!!!" people don't seem to grasp.

Electric cars are massively cool. But just like way back when gasoline carriages were new, finding refuel points was a hobby all unto itself and only rich people had the carriages. Unlike now, there was a fair infrastructure of transport choices and people walked more. We need mass transit in a thick net across the country - that is going to be a painful process. Personally, I'm as much for mass transit because of safety as I am for energy. People are getting too stupid to drive

Actually Vexx, I am wondering why your colleagues have yet to harness "human energy". We run diesel generators to power treadmills and all sorts of exercise equipment, but should we have some sort of experimental implant for fat people that direct the energy converted from fats to some microwave absorbing satellite?

You guys did great with MKULTRA sneaking hallucinogens into people's food. With the advent of nanotech, I am sure you guys can implant some energy transfer device surrepitiously into obese people to power the grid nationwide.

After all, if US really goes the way of Idiocracy, we can always use humans as fuel cells because they are filled with the electrolytes from the Brawndo they drink.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Vexx

If you ask, they'll come up with scenarios of why they "need" that stuff but police have a bad history of misapplication of any toys they are given.

I think you just described all humanity...

That being said, let us please move away from gun control. It's frankly a boring issue mostly because it is an endless abyss of a discussion that never changes and constantly seems fruitless. It's not en vogue to be moderate, so no one says anything worth hearing concerning the issue...

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by james0246

I think you just described all humanity...

Since when was putting a motor in a rod of plastic a misapplication?

Oh yes, reduced birth rates.

I don't think all misapplications are done nefariously, it is just that people don't realiae that such ways of utilising such tools in their own way may result in misfortune for orhers; after all, one man's meat is another man's poison, plus hindsight is always 20/20.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I don't think all misapplications are done nefariously, it is just that people don't realiae that such ways of utilising such tools in their own way may result in misfortune for orhers; after all, one man's meat is another man's poison, plus hindsight is always 20/20.

Nefarious? No, probably not. We always think we need certain tools at certain times to accomplish certain tasks. And sadly, sometimes that need is actually a want instead. But whatever the case, we all occasionally fail at common sense and too often confuse our own fanaticism with logic.

[GundamFan0083]

Let's talk corruption and intimidation by US politicians, those are usually juicy subjects are they not?

Top Cuomo Aide Delivers Public Rebuke of State Worker Who Talked to the Press
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/22/ny...ress.html?_r=0

And a little something on the US's "recovering" economy.

Why is Wal-Mart worried? Payroll tax could cut consumer spending. (+video)
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...entryLeadStory

[Kyuu]

This is the real difference between the two parties right now.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, let us please move away from gun control. It's frankly a boring issue mostly because it is an endless abyss of a discussion that never changes and constantly seems fruitless. It's not en vogue to be moderate, so no one says anything worth hearing concerning the issue...

As long as the NRA messaging gets overwhelmed by constant calls for gun safety, then things will definitely change. Until then, yes, it's the same old crap. So, that's all there is to that.

So, shoving the gun issue aside, there is actually an even bigger fight. The fight against unchecked Corporatocracy. Unfortunately, issues like guns and abortion are tied into it, because the corporate need common people with garnished support via social issues. I'm sure many of us here are aware of this.

[DonQuigleone]

I think this article is relevant.

Stephanie was then told by a billing clerk that the estimated cost of Sean’s visit — just to be examined for six days so a treatment plan could be devised — would be $48,900, due in advance. Stephanie got her mother to write her a check. “You do anything you can in a situation like that,” she says. The Recchis flew to Houston, leaving Stephanie’s mother to care for their two teenage children.

About a week later, Stephanie had to ask her mother for $35,000 more so Sean could begin the treatment the doctors had decided was urgent. His condition had worsened rapidly since he had arrived in Houston. He was “sweating and shaking with chills and pains,” Stephanie recalls. “He had a large mass in his chest that was … growing. He was panicked.”

Nonetheless, Sean was held for about 90 minutes in a reception area, she says, because the hospital could not confirm that the check had cleared. Sean was allowed to see the doctor only after he advanced MD Anderson $7,500 from his credit card. The hospital says there was nothing unusual about how Sean was kept waiting. According to MD Anderson communications manager Julie Penne, “Asking for advance payment for services is a common, if unfortunate, situation that confronts hospitals all over the United States.”

The total cost, in advance, for Sean to get his treatment plan and initial doses of chemotherapy was $83,900.

Why?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

In a free market, you get charged extra for being desperate. If you are sick and dying, the free market demands that you give them all your money and get into debt to survive. After all, they want to charge as much as you are willing to pay. And if they can clean you out in the process because you are not willing to "not live", that's your bad luck.

The wonderful hand of the market. Maximising profit one sick person at a time.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And if they can clean you out in the process because you are not willing to "not live", that's your bad luck.

How true.

To add another truth, people often tout those words as if they won't be affected by it. In other words, they make the presumption of being immune to that bad luck. However, when bad luck does strike, there will be tears.

Funny how mortality can be easily forgotten.