2012-12-11, 12:01 | Link #31341 | |||
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Setting aside Ryukishi's odd opinions about men and women...
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I am aware that KNM argues that both EP8 and most of Ryukishi's interviews are ridden with lies, but a statement such as "if you don't understand this, you don't understand the story" seems really strong and unnecessarily misleading, even if you are intentionally trying to deceive those "without knowledge" to honor those who "achieved knowledge" (or, in KNM's words, are one of "the chosen"). What chance does one have to "gain" the knowledge then? Except asking Guru KNM of course. Meanwhile, trying to save all three romances in the Golden Land has been hinted at during the Love Duel, and is probably the most we've got in terms of a gameboard "motive" for Shkanontrice (and is more like Yasu's "wish" from a Prime perspective), if there is such a thing in the first place. Of course we could now claim that he only implied that this is the reason Beatrice jumped off, therefore never outright said it, and that it is therefore possible that he tricked us yet again. If that would be the case: well... sorry Ryu, I don't think I have enough "love" for you to see 'it'. Then again no love in the world would be able to trust you at that point. What twisted love consists of doubting your every word anyway? Quote:
Of course, everything is possible with duct tape semantic cheats so it sadly degrades to lol"who do we want as culprit"lol. Don't you agree, Kyrie? I knew you would, after all we did for you in that blasted chapel. Last edited by qno2; 2012-12-11 at 12:22. |
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2012-12-11, 12:12 | Link #31342 | |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
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And what flashback in EP5? Can you be more specific?
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2012-12-11, 12:22 | Link #31343 | |
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That doesn't mean the scene couldn't have happened. Just that it couldn't have been Battler mistaking something for Kinzo.
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2012-12-11, 12:32 | Link #31344 |
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I don't mind an unreliable perspective. Those are very tall orders.
I greatly mind an insincere perspective. For example, the opening to John Dickson Carr's The Three Coffins aka The Hollow Man stated that several characters were not deliberately lying or omitting anything, but were recounting the events as best they understood them.
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2012-12-11, 12:53 | Link #31345 | |
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2012-12-11, 13:26 | Link #31346 | |
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I still think that the choices were symbolic and actually meant something like "Abandon your family to stay with me, abandon me to stay with your family or if you cant make a decision like that, just kill yourself". Yasu/Beatrice probably thought their idea of having it both ways was naive, but it actually fits in with what Dlanor said at the end of Our Confessions. |
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2012-12-11, 13:34 | Link #31347 | |
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I think it's not about knowing something you don't, because Ryuukishi made Dlanor say as well, that she only started understanding this triple structure when she went over this script.
"It does not matter whether what you feel for that woman called Beatrice is love or hatred when you read this. But, if somehow possible, I want you to arrive at what is hidden on the deepest layer of this story, her feelings. It was said that she constructed this story in twofold, but released only one form. But that is actually wrong. This is a story that exist thrice and was released only in one form. Through this incomplete manuscript, two of those three become exposed. I want you to struggle towards an idea for the last one out of your own strength. That is what I strongly wish to implore all of you readers to do, as a woman myself. " She doesn't say that this understanding comes from being a woman, Dlanor's understanding has lead her to liken her own motivation for releasing this story to be the same as what Beatrice should have realized. Quote:
He also said in an interview I translated once, that you can understand Umineko better if you have been "like a young girl in love". I think it is less his direct idea of Sex that comes into play here, but his idea of understanding the heart of another Gender. This is going very deep into analysis here, but I think he actually does make a personal difference between what is expected from men and women and what they actually feel. Umineko as a whole is basically also a huge comment about Gender and social roles, people not conforming to their expected roles or not being able to fulfill them because of personal "shortcomings". I think the same that he made Dlanor say about Beatrice, there being more personal bias in her story than she let herself believe, can be said for his story as well...and maybe his motivation to create "Our Confession" was this realization. He himself wanted to make us see that "there is love in everybody", but looking back at what he wrote he realized that he clearly despised certain actions no matter how motivated they might appear from another perspective. |
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2012-12-11, 13:58 | Link #31348 | |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
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Also, it's stated clear that Kinzo's pre-series death is valid for all games (except for the two last ones), but is it stated that "people wouldn't mistake something or someone for Kinzo" is valid for all games?
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2012-12-11, 14:18 | Link #31349 | |||
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It's hard to take the last part of Turn seriously as some kind of information pump to begin with. Sometimes a witch party is just a witch party. Quote:
I'm not saying a man can't write a woman plausibly and relatably (or vice-versa). However, taking into account many of the perspectives he's put forth in interviews, he comes across as being far less understanding of gender than his actual precedent texts suggest he is... or was, prior to Chiru. Either that or he's just not getting his feelings across the way he intends to, because his morality and attitude toward gender roles is markedly different (and, I think, mostly competently-handled) in-story. Of course, the entire thing could be more of a reference or example, a metaphor for something else. I suppose it depends how autobiographical you see Yasu as being. He may be conveying something considerably more personal but no fundamentally different than the more commonly-understood expectations of ordinary masculinity/femininity within the culture of his reader base. It may be something he can't come out and say, so he has to continue to use examples when discussing the matter with people. In so doing, perhaps he says things off-the-cuff that he doesn't entirely mean, things which contradict his earlier standpoints which he arrived at after having more time to think about it and get his thoughts in order. Because he wasn't actually talking about that thing, he was talking about himself and how he personally feels about an issue that he hopes people will understand in the same way they understand the more overt themes of identity in his novel. Not to say I'm outright stating that he is homosexual, or has a gender identity issue, or anything like that. However, I think it's a perspective that has to be considered given the themes of the story, and it might reconcile his seemingly contradictory opinions on matters he doesn't fully relate to as a less-than-perfect effort to explain his unspoken personal identity development with more socially-acceptable metaphors. The idea is really more to be understood as a person (or as a "human" as he might put it); which identities and expectations clash will vary from person to person, but it is possible to put those into a form of expression (through fiction) that others can comprehend and empathize with. In other words, you need not have actually been a young girl in love, but you need some commonality of human experience to understand what that's like when it's presented to you. Whether I agree with his conclusions on common experience and empathy (especially in relation to moral obligation) would be another matter entirely. But if that sort of empathy is what he's driving at, I can understand it even if I'm critical of the plausibility of his examples.
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2012-12-11, 14:48 | Link #31351 | |
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And yet, Beatrice claims that she did plan everything out from the very beginning.
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2012-12-11, 15:28 | Link #31352 | |
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Plus Ryukishi has claimed the George/Shannon romance is genuine. He might mean between George and the fictional character of Shannon, of course. EDIT: Haha, speaking of the Logic Error, reading over one of KNM's transcripts he commits a rather bad error of logic himself in discussing the "even if you join us" red. He posits that the inverse of a logical proposition is necessarily true (if p -> q, therefore if !p -> !q), which is not actually the case. Granted, it seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the point he's making, but it's hard to take someone seriously who doesn't know the difference between an inverse and a contrapositive.
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Last edited by Renall; 2012-12-11 at 17:44. |
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2012-12-11, 18:50 | Link #31353 | |
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I'd say that anything we have before Oct 4, 1986, while it may be part of the narrative, isn't really "on the gameboard". It's more like an explanation of the setup, and every game does that (even Legend, which just introduces the humans and the dynamics between them). What's it gotta do with gameboard PROOF that Shannon is a murderer? |
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2012-12-11, 19:20 | Link #31354 | |
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It's definitely possible for us to find evidence of Beatrice as the killer in this section. I think I was one of the first to try that post-EP6, at least on this board. However, Ryuukishi has made a point about giving suspects the benefit of the doubt several times in Umineko, so I'd like to look at this section again.
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2012-12-11, 23:15 | Link #31355 |
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Regarding Kinzo in Turn, perhaps Battler is in fact lying about seeing Kinzo do to his new found belief in magic he obviously didn't see butterflies. Perhaps when he accepts magic and becomes Beatrice's furniture he is actually because an accomplice to Beatrice and therefore hides the fact that Kinzo is dead.
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2012-12-12, 00:14 | Link #31356 | |
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2012-12-12, 04:05 | Link #31357 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2012-12-12, 05:35 | Link #31358 | |
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That interview sure is interesting, because Ryu is saying not that she couldn't choose between the three, but more that she was unwilling to let the any of the romances fail. It's like suicide was her plan all along, but she can't let a character die until their goal is achieved. Shannon can go at any time, as she gets the ring, Kanon does often die after a touching scene with Jessica and Beatrice dies once when she gives up and then once when Battler completes her. Also while saying she sacrificed herself to keep everyone else on the island alive is sweet in the theory of the story, in practice it is a little bit bonkers. FURTHERMORE, did he say Battler was fished out YEARS later? What? |
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2012-12-12, 06:06 | Link #31359 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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A side note, but I have to say dealing with Yasu's name has always been a bit difficult, because Yasu isn't Shannon or Kanon or Beatrice or Ikuko or anything. It's just the name we gave to the ultimate controller of that person's body. In Ikuko=Yasu, Ikuko is not really Yasu any more or less than Shannon or Beatrice is... Then again, even the personality structure of Yasu is a subject of debate and discussion. |
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2012-12-12, 09:34 | Link #31360 | |
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