AnimeSuki Forums

Keroko · 2009-04-28, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Sure, but she was saved by Nanoha, not by some generic teenager coming from nowhere. I'm not complaining about the new characters introduction, since we just have this page right now and that's not enough to judge about it. But that's just the vibe coming from this page you know : "Shounen Touma and shojou Lily, their encounter"...
How could it be more cliché?

Erio. Caro. Escalator.

Nuff said.

NorthernFallout · 2009-04-28, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Its just a dramatic character introduction, that tells us nothing about the plot. Subaru was introduced and saved the same way in StrikerS, remember?

Remember, if it's a male, it's never ok ;3

Keroko · 2009-04-28, 04:29

My above statement still stands.

Erio lived through it (and became quite the pimp) so as long as the author doesn't dive too deeply into cliches, this guy might as well.

Of course, I myself am curious what the relationship between this guy and the Aces is going to be. If he's paired of with Lily from the bat... where's the fun in that?

Sheba · 2009-04-28, 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

But that's just the vibe coming from this page you know : "Shounen Touma and shojou Lily, their encounter"...
How could it be more cliché?

You want Lily to run to school with a toast in her mouth, then bump into Touma and falling, showing her pantsu in her all white glory?

Nina.Wolken · 2009-04-28, 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

You want Lily to run to school with a toast in her mouth, then bump into Touma and falling, showing her pantsu in her all white glory?

That would not be worse than what we got here : the frail girl pleading silently (see the sparkle in her eyes!) her prince (also known as random guy n°859 whome will appear to have incredible abilities soon enough) to fly to rescue her...
No matter how you look at it, it's cliche =_='. And you know Sheba, you can still hope that you will have the sus-mentionned encounter in ViVid, I'm sure some people would still scream "Awesome" if something like that was to happen...orz

LoweGear · 2009-04-28, 04:53

It's not in the cliche, it's in the execution of it. Cliches are rather difficult to avoid nowadays, not without going

- totally bonkers
- totally illogical
- totally boring

Which wouldn't be too good for the purposes of the story at hand.

The "Damsel in Distress" cliche is just fine, just need to see how they actually do it

Nina.Wolken · 2009-04-28, 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

The "Damsel in Distress" cliche is just fine, just need to see how they actually do it

In Nanoha? In the serie I know and love where girls are actually the ones kicking ass?

Keroko · 2009-04-28, 05:02

Lowe raises a good point. If we go and call scenes cliche, then it becomes really hard not to find cliche scenes in Nanoha.

Nanoha carrying a near unconscious Fate in her arms? Cliche.

Bridge goodbye scene? Cliche.

'I'm willing to become a demon to save Hayate' Wolkenritter attitude in A's? Cliche.

'We must attack together' final battle in A's? Cliche.

... You know, I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

There are lots of things that are cliche in Nanoha, but as long as it is executed in an interesting way, people won't care about it. Erio saved Caro in the nearly exact 'shounen saves shoujo' way, but people didn't care about the cliche because it was pulled of in an interesting way.

LoweGear · 2009-04-28, 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

In Nanoha? In the serie I know and love where girls are actually the ones kicking ass?

You know, that actually drives home the reason the damsel in distress trope is being played out here: Because in a setting where it seems the girls are always the ones getting all the attention, suddenly having a GUY have a large slice of the glory is a much welcome change of pace, and adds some much needed variety to the Nanohaverse

Besides, it's also telling that the title of the manga is "Magical War Chronicles Lyrical", and not "Magical Girl Lyrical" as it used to be

Nina.Wolken · 2009-04-28, 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

... You know, I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

There are lots of things that are cliche in Nanoha, but as long as it is executed in an interesting way, people won't care about it.

You didn't actually, since none of the scenes you mentionned were nearly as common (in a shounen manga) as what we have in this page. Plus speaking of Nanoha taking Fate in her arms after she blasted her, or the bridge scene, that became nearly "classic" for a number of fans. I doubt this panel will know the same fame...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

suddenly having a GUY have a large slice of the glory is a much welcome change of pace, and adds some much needed variety to the Nanohaverse

Speak for yourself

...

LoweGear · 2009-04-28, 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

You didn't actually, since none of the scenes you mentionned were nearly as common (in a shounen manga) as what we have in this page. Plus speaking of Nanoha taking Fate in her arms after she blasted her, or the bridge scene, that became nearly "classic" for a number of fans. I doubt this panel will know the same fame...

Actually they are common, just executed differently due to the dynamics of the characters involved. And this isn't about what's "memorable", it's about what's "cliche", and we're just trying to point out that this particular manga panel isn't anymore "cliche" than any other moment in Nanoha.

We can duke it out some more, or we can just wait to see the actual context of the panel before deciding what kind of cliche are they enacting in the scene exactly

Besides, a Nanoverse character using a Squall-like Gunblade? That's already memorable to me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Speak for yourself

...

I was, if you didn't notice

Sheba · 2009-04-28, 05:22

I'll add more salt to the wound: this is canon and count in the continuity. TSUZUKI IS HETEROING UP THE FRANCHISE HE HELPED FLOURISH HAHAHAH!

Iromaru · 2009-04-28, 05:34

Now I'm really worried about the future of Nanohaverse. If this manga turns out to be a shonen harem with another generic "cool" guy as the main protagonist I will be REALLY disappointed

What made Nanoha so special and great was a cost of awesome badass girls and yuri vibes, I don't want a male lead in Nanoha...

Nina.Wolken · 2009-04-28, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

We can duke it out some more, or we can just wait to see the actual context of the panel before deciding what kind of cliche are they enacting in the scene exactly

I agree, that would be wise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'll add more salt to the wound: this is canon and count in the continuity. TSUZUKI IS HETEROING UP THE FRANCHISE HE HELPED FLOURISH HAHAHAH!

And that's what I call a suicidale course of action

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

Now I'm really worried about the future of Nanohaverse. If this manga turns out to be a shonen harem with another generic "cool" guy as the main protagonist I will be REALLY disappointed

We should wait for the serialisation to really begin (in July?) before to get too pessimistic. This panel is just from the introductive chapter, nothing decisive concerning the remaining of the manga hopefully.
But if it was to turn like that, the good point is that I won't have to waste my money in purchasing the Nyantype every month : ).

Sheba · 2009-04-28, 05:49

You didn't get the memo? They dropped the magical girl part of the name in this manga?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

And that's what I call a suicidale course of action

.
.

Because stagnation is better yay!

Seriously what Tsuzuki was trying with StrikerS was having Nanoha passing the torch to a new generation. Were you guys so blinded by NxF that you could not see that? It worked for many shonen manga like Dragon Ball and JoJo's Bizarre Adventures.
JoJo had the audace to try as many genres as possible with the new generations: Gothic horror with Jonathan, Adventure action with Joseph, standard shonen journey with Jotaro, thriller with Jousuke, mafia drama with Giorno and prison drama with Jolyne. And this is why it is epic.

Keroko · 2009-04-28, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

You didn't actually, since none of the scenes you mentionned were nearly as common (in a shounen manga) as what we have in this page.

Really? So tearful goodbye scenes, villains with a dramatic purpose and the hero(ine) crying another in his/her arms are not nearly as common in shounen manga?

Do give me the titles you are reading, 'cause I want to read them as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

Plus speaking of Nanoha taking Fate in her arms after she blasted her, or the bridge scene, that became nearly "classic" for a number of fans. I doubt this panel will know the same fame...

Again, that all depends on its execution. I doubt it will become 'classic' seeing how it's just an introductory scene, but to shout 'OMG cliche!' in the face of Nanoha, Erio and Hayate doing exactly the same is hypocritical at best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iromaru

Now I'm really worried about the future of Nanohaverse. If this manga turns out to be a shonen harem with another generic "cool" guy as the main protagonist I will be REALLY disappointed

What made Nanoha so special and great was a cost of awesome badass girls and yuri vibes, I don't want a male lead in Nanoha...

.... I can't help but be amazed at how fast people are jumping to conclusions. Seriously, all this page does is introduce a male character. How does that suddenly turn Nanoha into a shonen harem? We don't even know what this guy's connections with the Aces is, or will be, at all. Much less if he's going to be the lead of the story (which I highly doubt).

Nya~n · 2009-04-28, 06:01

YAY HAREM.Finally, the guys are shafted no longer. The Nanoha series seriously needs new blood in the form of guys that can give the girls a run for their money.

Also, as Sheba puts it: Canon. IN YOUR FACE YO

Keroko · 2009-04-28, 06:05

Besides, everybody knows that if there is a harem, that harem is Nanoha's. This guy's no lead, he's a follower, only a recent addition in Nanoha's ever expanding harem.

Nina.Wolken · 2009-04-28, 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

You didn't get the memo? They dropped the magical girl part of the name in this manga?

It still be called "Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha" though, I'm not the only one who's half blind here >_>.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

Seriously what Tsuzuki was trying with StrikerS was having Nanoha passing the torch to a new generation. Were you guys so blinded by NxF that you could not see that?

Would you stop bashing NxF shippers all the time please? What the point of bringing that here? To like N/F pairing makes us a bunch of stupid fans unable to understand what's going on in MSLN? Seriously, I wonder who is the one who really missed the point in StS: the one going on with all the teasing distilled about N/F or the one acting like an overexited fanboy everytime a Yuno fanart pops-up even if this one has been shafted from the serie : ).
And I did see what they tried to do in StS (and regret somehow that they didn't totally succeed u_u') and I don't really like the idea of having a whole bunch of new characters to assimile again, but I could deal with that if the senario is better than in StS.

My problem would be to change the focus of the serie on a unknow guy. There is already thousands of manga focusing on average teenager who have to save the world out there, but how many of them have badass girls like MSLN had, as their protagonists?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Really? So tearful goodbye scenes, villains with a dramatic purpose and the hero(ine) crying another in his/her arms are not nearly as common in shounen manga?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Again, that all depends on its execution.

You answered it yourself. If the scenes were common, the execution was original and had an impact on me. With the panel we have here... nothing.

LoweGear · 2009-04-28, 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken

You answered it yourself. If the scenes were common, the execution was original and had an impact on me. With the panel we have here... nothing.

It clearly had an impact if it's enough to set off a discussion like this and send some of us here into a frenzy

I'm not going to argue about "impact", as that wasn't the original point of the discussion, but whether the scene was "cliche", i.e.-

"How could it be more cliché?"

And I believe that question was already answered - yes it's cliche, but then again so are a lot of things in the Nanoverse.

2009-04-28, 04:53	Link #1046
LoweGear Secret Society BLANKET Graphic Designer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco	It's not in the cliche, it's in the execution of it. Cliches are rather difficult to avoid nowadays, not without going - totally bonkers - totally illogical - totally boring Which wouldn't be too good for the purposes of the story at hand. The "Damsel in Distress" cliche is just fine, just need to see how they actually do it __________________ Against all the evil that hell can conjure, all wickedness that mankind can produce... We will send unto them, only you.

2009-04-28, 06:01	Link #1057
Nya~n umbrella moe~♥ Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: huh wha-?	YAY HAREM.Finally, the guys are shafted no longer. The Nanoha series seriously needs new blood in the form of guys that can give the girls a run for their money. Also, as Sheba puts it: Canon. IN YOUR FACE YO __________________

2009-04-28, 04:29	Link #1043
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	My above statement still stands. Erio lived through it (and became quite the pimp) so as long as the author doesn't dive too deeply into cliches, this guy might as well. Of course, I myself am curious what the relationship between this guy and the Aces is going to be. If he's paired of with Lily from the bat... where's the fun in that?

2009-04-28, 05:02	Link #1048
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Lowe raises a good point. If we go and call scenes cliche, then it becomes really hard not to find cliche scenes in Nanoha. Nanoha carrying a near unconscious Fate in her arms? Cliche. Bridge goodbye scene? Cliche. 'I'm willing to become a demon to save Hayate' Wolkenritter attitude in A's? Cliche. 'We must attack together' final battle in A's? Cliche. ... You know, I could go on, but I think I've made my point. There are lots of things that are cliche in Nanoha, but as long as it is executed in an interesting way, people won't care about it. Erio saved Caro in the nearly exact 'shounen saves shoujo' way, but people didn't care about the cliche because it was pulled of in an interesting way.

2009-04-28, 05:22	Link #1052
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	I'll add more salt to the wound: this is canon and count in the continuity. TSUZUKI IS HETEROING UP THE FRANCHISE HE HELPED FLOURISH HAHAHAH!

2009-04-28, 05:34	Link #1053
Iromaru Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007	Now I'm really worried about the future of Nanohaverse. If this manga turns out to be a shonen harem with another generic "cool" guy as the main protagonist I will be REALLY disappointed What made Nanoha so special and great was a cost of awesome badass girls and yuri vibes, I don't want a male lead in Nanoha...

2009-04-28, 06:05	Link #1058
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Besides, everybody knows that if there is a harem, that harem is Nanoha's. This guy's no lead, he's a follower, only a recent addition in Nanoha's ever expanding harem.