[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[witchfan]

Not thinking about Monk (never heard of that), but there was a movie with this plot... I don't recall the name right now.

[Sherringford]

I think the movie you have in mind is Fracture, but that thing is so bad it gives anyone with an even remote knowledge of the legal system a headache.

...Renall, you should watch it and have a headache! C'mon!

[witchfan]

Yes! I think that's the one. I've never actually watched it, but a summary of the plot I read on wiki came to mind for some reason.

[Sherringford]

It's a pretty bad movie.

Also note Renall, that the reason most detectives get away with forcing confessions and such is that cases like Burdeau vs. McDowell in the US and similar cases in other countries generally allow citizens to do whatever they want, and the police just sort of turns a blind eye to it.

If it's evidence turned in by a private citizen, judges can't do anything to suppress it.
...Well they can try, but let's face it, judges hate criminals as much as anyone. They are not going to suppress evidence if they have an excuse not to.

[Renall]

Yeah but the testimony of what the culprit said to the citizen investigator is, while admissible (it's not hearsay), not necessarily the strongest. Yeah, I can see it now... Mr. Holmes won't enjoy discussing his drug use and whether his mood swings and altered states might call into question the veracity of his testimony. Mr. McGee might have some questions to answer about his reliability when information about his smuggling comes to light. And the less said of the "hard-boiled private eye" the better... court will be fun with those guys. Just why did you feel compelled to shoot him, again?

Nero Wolfe would probably demolish a courtroom though. Meticulous and documented. That's if you can get him to actually show up, but we'll see how he likes a subpoena.

[Sherringford]

Holmes was however so respected that royalty came to visit him, and drug use was seen as much more tame back then. His testimony was solid as it comes. Also, the only time he used a private citizen as a witness(The adventure of the dying detective) he had the good sense of bringing Watson to hide just in case. Other times he caught the criminal in public, he made sure to have other witnesses(usually the other suspects) as well.

Hard-boiled detectives on the other hand....yyyyeah, you are right about those. "Yes I obtained information from him." "How?" "By shoving my gun down his throat." "You can step down Mr.Philip."

[Renall]

I don't know what the rules are for venue changes in the UK, but I imagine Holmes would lose a bit of weight with jurors outside of London (and outside his own time). I suppose you can try to dredge up his various accolades to rehabilitate him after aspersions are cast on his relationship with Dr. Watson.

Oh yes, I'd go there. That's what they pay you for.

[Sherringford]

During Holmes time, suppressing evidence was an argument that barely existed. Holmes apparently had a degree in law considering how he defended someone in one story(somehow) and won the case, though he was probably just an overbearing witness. I think his testimony, if done outside of London, could be a bit weaker, but again that's why he usually got people to witness confessions or just told the police to do the interrogation themselves.

Holmes nowadays would be like the BBC series Sherlock where he just smokes cigarettes instead of doing cocaine, so bringing up his rehab wouldn't be particularly convincing.

"Holmes, did you dare to TRY TO QUIT SMOKING?"

I think that it would be better to point out how many crimes he commits and is never prosecuted for. Claim he is working for the police so that they can break a few rules. Now that would start up some supreme court stuff.

[AuraTwilight]

Oh yes, I'd go there. That's what they pay you for.

I now understand Renall's business strategy.

"Yea? Well the defendant is one of those icky faggot types, and he stole my client's Stretch Armstrong. He's also a liar liar with pants on fire, your honor."

[rogerpepitone]

Nero Wolfe went to a courtroom in "The Next Witness". There was another case where Wolfe ended up getting roped into testifying at the end despite his best efforts (can't remember which, though).

Ellery Queen in _The Scarlet Letters_ also counts.

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Hey, I was thinking that you guys detecting that the red is subjective may be from the author level.

What do you mean by the author level?

But at least what the rules for what the red truth actually were was consistent. This is something that Chiru was at least consistent with, even with Dlanor using Knox's rules since she believed that they applied. I really need to bring up that she once doubted that the Decalogue applied. Even if she did doubt once, those red wedges were how she did things. She could not have used them unless she personally believed to be true and only if Lambda or Battler as Game Master prevented her from doing so. Remember EP5 with the window? The Game Master can apparently stop red truth from being used by someone else when it comes to a game board. None of the rules for the red truth were at all spelled out. The same with the gold. Only the blue and purple truths were given specific, non-vague rules on their use.

Somebody mentioned game rules being done in red. I can't remember that happening. Sure people established facts in red, but that's about it.

Renall, you seem to take a lot of offense at how Chiru played out. I'll admit for most of Chiru I was bored. I wanted see some more mystery action and we get all this meta-world drama bull?! I couldn't stand EP6 at all. And both mystery games cut short? If anything I loved EP7 because it was chunky with info I could use for solving the mystery. To be honest I slammed down on the ctrl key during a good deal of EP5 and EP6 the first time around, lol. That's right, I IGNORED the whole trial with Erika and Battler once we got to the end and it was drama time the first time around. Why are you taking it so seriously? You didn't like it, move on. It's okay not to like it. They didn't really explain gold text and unlike red text we don't have nearly as many examples of it's use. Is it a deus ex machina? Up to interpretation. Does it suck? I'll agree that it does. Did how the trial play it suck? Sure I'll agree on that too.

Should we keep trying to prove to people that it sucks? Up to interpretation. Is Umineko a mystery story or is it a fantasy story? In my opinion, yes. Was it bad? I liked most of it more than most other Japanese stories I've enjoyed.

And people, don't gang up on Renall. Is it too much to ask to respect another person's opinion without arguing it? They didn't like how something played out, you were okay with it, deal with it.

MeoTwister, you are awesome with providing summaries for EP8 but it's not the same as reading through it. Sounds like it's not as good for me as EP7 was, but I'm not gonna attack the author or story about that.

So I'll say it again, I was mostly disappointed with Chiru. But what little I enjoyed about it was awesome.

[AuraTwilight]

And people, don't gang up on Renall. Is it too much to ask to respect another person's opinion without arguing it? They didn't like how something played out, you were okay with it, deal with it.

I didn't realize anyone was "ganging up" on Renall, seeing as how he pretty much pwns everyone who picks a fight with him and half the people in the discussion are on his side.

[MeoTwister5]

It is done.

Will post the final summary batch later today. Requesting someone to please give me the properly translated of the final text scroll at the end of the ??? just before the credits because I'm too tired to do it myself at this point.

Just wanna sit back and reflect at what I've seen so far. Initially thought I'd be bored and angry at the end of Ep8, but almost surprisingly I loved most of it and was almost completely satisfied by the given ending. At this point, if given the choice between inner peace and absolute truth, I'd choose inner peace any day.

So anyone got the final text scroll so I can finally put a close to this little project?

[Zeroxy]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

Here's an example that you used for subjective truth: I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. This is not completely incorrect, it's just a half-truth. She does call herself the Golden Witch and at least Maria recognizes her as the Golden Witch. But she is not the same Beatrice that Kinzo met, nor did she provide him with gold. Even thought Kinzo did recognize her as such, symbolically, before he died.

Originally Posted by haguruma

EDIT:
I really wouldn't call that truth subjective, as I explained above. That person, Yasu, is accepted by several people throughout the series as 'The Golden Witch, Beatrice'. She assumed the role by herself and was even aided further by Kinzo and the servants.
'The Golden Witch, Beatrice', as we learned by the time of EP3, is not a person but a title that is passed on from generation to generation. This is shown metaphorically through Vargilia who looses the name after the young girl in Kuwadorian succeeds her.
Even Beatrice Castiglioni wasn't 'The Golden Witch, Beatrice'. That was a concept that was created by Kinzo and he passed it on from girl to girl.

I'm seeing double./sarcasm

I was quoting Judoh, since Judoh said that stuff like titles and trolling were subjective and facts were objective. So I used that as a example. I haven't been here for a couple days so that's why I'm responding to this now.

Thank you for proving my point about red truth. That it doesn't tell the whole truth. And it is subjective. Opinions like You are incompetant, which Beatrice said to Battler, are by their nature subjective. And Battler was incompetent. But someone else reading up to that point could have a different opinion, for instance they thought Battler was competent. I know just roll with it.

So how could Beatrice say that in red? Because she knows it to be true. Doesn't matter what the reader or anyone else knows. And by 'know' I mean believe. Like you 'know' the sun will come up tomorrow. I could wax on about philosophy about what subjective and objective is but I'm not going to. I don't like talking about philosophy, too subjective, lol. What about the red at the end of EP4 that Battler couldn't say? Good point, except Battler wasn't Game Master (GM) at the time.

My previous post just mentioned that it seems that even if a person can say a red truth than a GM can keep them from saying it. It also seems that if the GM knows it not to be true than a person can't speak in red as well. What about the Erika trial thing? Erika using her duct tape had to prove that they were true and ultimately Lambda could have denied any red truths if she wanted to.

Bottom Line: The red Truth is subjective, the GM is what determines if it can be said. That's what I think anyway. Does it say the objective truth? Sigh, you'd have to define what you mean by objective but what's the point? Another semantic battle where it turn out everyone meant the same thing anyway? Boring. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. At least the mechanics of blue and purple text were spelled out. Screw gold text.

To AuraTwilight: Why pick a fight? Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you have to fight with them. Respect their opinion, and if you disagree give a reason why. If somebody doesn't like something let them not like it. He wouldn't need to ''pwn'' anyone if people would debate civilly. Or with humor.

For example, Renall seems to have the opinion that Beatrice had malicious intent for sending out the bottles. I thought she was just having fun. And depending on interpretation we could both be right.

[AuraTwilight]

To AuraTwilight: Why pick a fight? Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you have to fight with them. Respect their opinion, and if you disagree give a reason why. If somebody doesn't like something let them not like it. He wouldn't need to ''pwn'' anyone if people would debate civilly. Or with humor.

The hell are you talking about? I'm not picking a fight. I'm not even being mean to anyone.

If you're referring to my post about Renall's "business strategy", I'll point out that it's a joke referring to something only Renall and a few other people really understand. Renall and I are friends.

[Zeroxy]

Sorry to offend you. You said any time someone picks a fight with Renall he pwns them. I was making a general statement, why pick a fight? I wasn't referring you to specifically nor was that statement directed at you. Instead of "To AuraTwilight:" I should've said "In response to". In fact, you seemed to at least have some fun with the whole thing.

Did that clear things up?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

Sorry to offend you. You said any time someone picks a fight with Renall he pwns them. I was making a general statement, why pick a fight? I wasn't referring you to specifically nor was that statement directed at you. Instead of "To AuraTwilight:" I should've said "In response to". In fact, you seemed to at least have some fun with the whole thing.

Did that clear things up?

In short: Some people disagree with him. So they argue. Or "pick fights" as AT said it. Nothing more to it than that.

But nobody is doing that now. Aura's saying he can hold is own. Renall doesn't need you to hold his hand.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

And people, don't gang up on Renall. Is it too much to ask to respect another person's opinion without arguing it? They didn't like how something played out, you were okay with it, deal with it.

Uh what? We are all bros with Renall, we just like to joke around.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Zeroxy

I'm seeing double./sarcasm

I was quoting Judoh, since Judoh said that stuff like titles and trolling were subjective and facts were objective. So I used that as a example. I haven't been here for a couple days so that's why I'm responding to this now.

Thank you for proving my point about red truth. That it doesn't tell the whole truth. And it is subjective. Opinions like You are incompetant, which Beatrice said to Battler, are by their nature subjective. And Battler was incompetent. But someone else reading up to that point could have a different opinion, for instance they thought Battler was competent. I know just roll with it...

I don't lose anything in this argument on whether red is subjective or objective. I don't even really care. I call it that because that's what I'm used to calling it. So you can really beleive whatever you want. The wikia agrees with you in fact.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If you're referring to my post about Renall's "business strategy", I'll point out that it's a joke referring to something only Renall and a few other people really understand. Renall and I are friends.

To clarify: I am actually an attorney. So he's joking about how I must act in the courtroom, based on the way I argue and the silly things I'd just said.

Aura's mistake is saying business strategy, of course. I'm not a businessman; I'm a professional.