International Saimoe League 2008 - The Best of the Best

[qtipbrit]

Can we see the results of the test polls?
I'd like to see if there are still a lot of Suiseiseki fans around after the official death of the desu meme, and how Yukana's characters fared.

Also, I'm putting together a comprehensive prequalifiers standing list by anime so as to see which anime are more important to have watched to vote "better" in Saimoe (based on number of eligible characters and their ranks in the tournament), and I need to know the standings of:
Hayate no Gotoku's Ayumu Nishizawa (gah, <3)
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha's Vita
Fate/Stay Night's Sakura Matou
ARIA's Alice Carroll
Tsubasa Chronicles' Sakura (I kind of want to see a TC Sakura CCS Sakura matchup.)
On the "Contestants" section, ranks 31, 32, 37, 42, and 46 are open, so these characters correspond to one of these, correct?

If you're interested, (according to my mildly subjective list) I'd say that having watched Clannad, Rozen Maiden, Hayate no Gotoku, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and maybe Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are *highly recommended*, while Shakugan no Shana, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Fate/Stay Night, Lucky Star, Utawarerumono, and School Rumble are pretty important as well. (with Hanyuu and Saber as factors in their respective series.)

My "system" gives a more emphasis on how highly the characters are rated than how many characters there are from a series, so Kanon and Negima!? (with four characters each, assuming Ayu makes the cut) are a bit lower, while Shakugan no Shana is quite high up.

All this being said, I might need to go finish School Rumble and watch Utawarerumono to get the full "Saimoe experience".

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Can we see the results of the test polls?
I'd like to see if there are still a lot of Suiseiseki fans around after the official death of the desu meme, and how Yukana's characters fared.

Since there's no official standings page, I've posted them in the news section, and since these matches were unofficial from the start, they won't be saved. That being said, there were only 34 votes total, partly due to the voting problems everybody else were having earlier.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Also, I'm putting together a comprehensive prequalifiers standing list by anime so as to see which anime are more important to have watched to vote "better" in Saimoe (based on number of eligible characters and their ranks in the tournament), and I need to know the standings of:
Hayate no Gotoku's Ayumu Nishizawa (gah, <3)
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha's Vita
Fate/Stay Night's Sakura Matou
ARIA's Alice Carroll
Tsubasa Chronicles' Sakura (I kind of want to see a TC Sakura CCS Sakura matchup.)
On the "Contestants" section, ranks 31, 32, 37, 42, and 46 are open, so these characters correspond to one of these, correct?

Well, alphastickmania's in charge of the JPEG images I use, so I'm waiting on him for that. But everybody including myself has had a crappy week last week or so, so I don't know how much he has done.

31 - Alice, 32 - Sakura, 37 - Ayumu, 42 - Vita, 46 - Sakura

And assuming Sakura (CCS) makes it, you'll see her matchup. You'll see all 2016 possible matches in this league.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

If you're interested, (according to my mildly subjective list) I'd say that having watched Clannad, Rozen Maiden, Hayate no Gotoku, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and maybe Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are *highly recommended*, while Shakugan no Shana, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Fate/Stay Night, Lucky Star, Utawarerumono, and School Rumble are pretty important as well. (with Hanyuu and Saber as factors in their respective series.)

My "system" gives a more emphasis on how highly the characters are rated than how many characters there are from a series, so Kanon and Negima!? (with four characters each, assuming Ayu makes the cut) are a bit lower, while Shakugan no Shana is quite high up.

All this being said, I might need to go finish School Rumble and watch Utawarerumono to get the full "Saimoe experience".

I don't think I know half of these characters as much as I need to, and I'm usually never at home to download any of these. What I had fully under my belt is Shakguan no Shana, Fate/Stay Night, Kanon, Clannad, and Zero no Tsukaima, and I picked up Rozen Maiden recently before I started this project. I think a lot of votes will factor into what voters haven't watched along with what voters have, so some of the lesser anime could have problems. I've seen scenes of other characters, so that may be enough.

I don't have an anime list anymore, mainly since I'm busy doing things, but Hayate no Gotoku is in my plans somewhere.

[alphastickmania]

Alright. About my part, here's the deal. If I get the chance, I will work on them this Wednesday and they will be sent to minhtam by Thursday. If I don't, the upcoming weekend. As there is the Good Friday break, the batch would be sent to him by Saturday/Sunday latest. And the batch is not all 64. The fanvotes are still not complete. (That is so, isn't it?)

PS : Yeah, I had a shitty/busy week behind me.

[Fynal_Fyre]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

I don't think I know half of these characters as much as I need to, and I'm usually never at home to download any of these. What I had fully under my belt is Shakguan no Shana, Fate/Stay Night, Kanon, Clannad, and Zero no Tsukaima, and I picked up Rozen Maiden recently before I started this project. I think a lot of votes will factor into what voters haven't watched along with what voters have, so some of the lesser anime could have problems. I've seen scenes of other characters, so that may be enough.

I don't have an anime list anymore, mainly since I'm busy doing things, but Hayate no Gotoku is in my plans somewhere.

Personally neither do I, What I have fully under my belt is: Hayate no Gotoku, Zero no Tsukaima, Clannad, Lucky*Star and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.

IMO, a scene of a character's most moe moments is enough, one need not have watched an entire anime to know that Shana is indeed moe.

[KholdStare]

You know, a good idea might be to collect some of the scenes of the moe moments in a YouTube account or something, even though it might be impossibly difficult and time consuming for 64 characters.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

If you're interested, (according to my mildly subjective list) I'd say that having watched Clannad, Rozen Maiden, Hayate no Gotoku, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and maybe Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha are *highly recommended*, while Shakugan no Shana, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Fate/Stay Night, Lucky Star, Utawarerumono, and School Rumble are pretty important as well. (with Hanyuu and Saber as factors in their respective series.)

Well the good news is that I've caught all those series. Did have to go through Lucky Star after the last Saimoe, but now well versed enough for this one.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Since there's no official rules page, I've posted them in the news section, and since these matches were unofficial from the start, they won't be saved. That being said, there were only 34 votes total, partly due to the voting problems everybody else were having earlier.

Well, alphastickmania's in charge of the JPEG images I use, so I'm waiting on him for that. But everybody including myself has had a crappy week last week or so, so I don't know how much he has done.

31 - Alice, 32 - Sakura, 37 - Ayumu, 42 - Vita, 46 - Sakura

And assuming Sakura (CCS) makes it, you'll see her matchup. You'll see all 2016 possible matches in this league.

Ah, thanks, except that Sakura is 32nd and 46th, with no "Matou"
I'll take a guess and say that Tsubasa Sakura is higher than Fate/Stay Night Sakura, though it's really 50/50 here.
Do you expect there to be more test polls to correct the vote system as well?
I need to know how much I can be involved.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

You know, a good idea might be to collect some of the scenes of the moe moments in a YouTube account or something, even though it might be impossibly difficult and time consuming for 64 characters.

That would be a pretty good idea, and first off, I'd like to nominate myself as one who won't be doing this.

[minhtam1638]

Okay, let me address a few issues before I get started.

#1:

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Ah, thanks, except that Sakura is 32nd and 46th, with no "Matou"
I'll take a guess and say that Tsubasa Sakura is higher than Fate/Stay Night Sakura, though it's really 50/50 here.
Do you expect there to be more test polls to correct the vote system as well?
I need to know how much I can be involved.

Tsubasa Chronicle Sakura is the 46th. Actually, she got in because of Korean Best Moe '06, which didn't get an international outing until the top 16 was already in play.

#2:

Originally Posted by alphastickmania

Alright. About my part, here's the deal. If I get the chance, I will work on them this Wednesday and they will be sent to minhtam by Thursday. If I don't, the upcoming weekend. As there is the Good Friday break, the batch would be sent to him by Saturday/Sunday latest. And the batch is not all 64. The fanvotes are still not complete. (That is so, isn't it?)

PS : Yeah, I had a shitty/busy week behind me.

So did Psieye, apparently.

I'll need all of them by the April 1st deadline. I'll do my part to get you the rest of the nomination images (not all may be used) and hopefully we can get the ball rolling. There may be images to spare, but at least we're prepared.

#3:

Originally Posted by KholdStare

You know, a good idea might be to collect some of the scenes of the moe moments in a YouTube account or something, even though it might be impossibly difficult and time consuming for 64 characters.

Saimoe Japan does this all the time, and it has gained a lot of voters for Japan in general. Eventually, we're going to need one as well.

#4:

Lastly, one of my schedule "conflicts" is that I've been invited to an anime convention in New York City by my friends over at anime club. I may be moving it to Friday, but I was thinking of the possibility that maybe I could run a booth or something on that day, and for that special day, votes can be made on paper or something like that, and we could have posters and all. Sounds like something that could be out of the ballpark, but it could be possible. Regardless, I'll be in NYC for the anime convention, so we may see some vote trends increase after the Aquamarine period.

The date for this is April 19th, and the featured matchups during that day are (subject to change) Yuki vs. FANVOTE #2 (Kotomi at this point), Nagi vs. Kyou, and Tsukasa vs. Kagami.

[Psieye]

Well, that's consecutive shitty week #2 out of the way, now for #3 to start tomorrow. Weekend was spent 'recovering' from the fatigue. Aha... at least my work is more meaningful to me now than last year even if I have less free time. So what's been going on in this thread over the last few days...?

*reads*

Well, I'm sure I don't need to say it anymore, but KyoAni simply is an overall superior studio (veterans have other studios/directors they prefer over KyoAni's "brute Excellence" approach) and it just so happens they're getting Key's works to animate. Not sure how many people are aware that Key is considered one of those legendary companies that broke the trend of the market and defined the Moe Visual Novel as it is today. Strong character makers/animators are already a good recipe for making highly successful Moe characters. Factor in that success builds upon itself because more Doujin creators will create material on successful shows as they know they'll sell and circulate. And it is in Doujin that Moe grows and matures.

Raging at successful companies producing successful characters is... well it's understandable I guess. We are free to like or hate it but reality is reality.

Originally Posted by Fynal_Fyre

IMO, a scene of a character's most moe moments is enough, one need not have watched an entire anime to know that Shana is indeed moe.

Depends how Moe is defined and in my view, you can easily pick up on superficial Moe traits this way. The sort that any character can have from 'birth'. Higher Moe needs to be grown and matured after 'birth'. Context, history and character development. Is what separates the strongest hitters from the generic masses of characters.

If I was to pick out Yuki's most moe scene in Vol 4 (which resulted in me being brokenly loyal to her), it'd be some paragraphs of Kyon Narration or maybe that moment where Yuki makes a gesture that seems so utterly mundane to an outsider who can't see what's going on. It's even arguable many people won't even find that scene Moe. That's how Moe is - stronger stuff doesn't universally hit everyone.

[wontaek]

I am curious. There are some very popular, well known girls that always doesn't do well in these tournaments I wonder why? The female characters I'm referring to are

1. Shirakawa Kotori (D.C.) : Despite rabid fanbase, she seldom does well.
2. Yuasa Hiromi (True Tears): True Tears was one of the most talked about series of this spring yet she isn't getting the votes. May be due to many disliking her, fervently.
3. Ayukawa Madoka (Kimagure Orange Road): You won't believe how popular she was in late 80s.
4. Lynn Minmei (Macross) : The first anime character to have REAL gold disk. Popularity of Macross was, at one point, greater than Rozen Maiden and Nanoha series combined.
5. Metel (Galaxy Express 999): She was the dream woman of many animators.
6. Azusagawa Tsukino (Yakitate): Some claim her to be the prettiest girl ever.
7. Hazuki (Tsukuyomi): Has very strong fanbase from the manga series.

[FlareKnight]

^^ Can at least say why I haven't given those characters votes. Only series I've seen from that list is True Tears. Then I wasn't a big fan of Hiromi and so not that interested in voting for her.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by wontaek

I am curious. There are some very popular, well known girls that always doesn't do well in these tournaments I wonder why? The female characters I'm referring to are

1. Shirakawa Kotori (D.C.) : Despite rabid fanbase, she seldom does well.
2. Yuasa Hiromi (True Tears): True Tears was one of the most talked about series of this spring yet she isn't getting the votes. May be due to many disliking her, fervently.
3. Ayukawa Madoka (Kimagure Orange Road): You won't believe how popular she was in late 80s.
4. Lynn Minmei (Macross) : The first anime character to have REAL gold disk. Popularity of Macross was, at one point, greater than Rozen Maiden and Nanoha series combined.
5. Metel (Galaxy Express 999): She was the dream woman of many animators.
6. Azusagawa Tsukino (Yakitate): Some claim her to be the prettiest girl ever.
7. Hazuki (Tsukuyomi): Has very strong fanbase from the manga series.

Well... some of those girls are older than the concept of Moe - I'm no expert but I would guess "Moe" as a term was invented around the end of the 90s or so wasn't it? So voters (the precious few who have those classic shows) would need to very specifically ponder and analyse while filtering out the historic quality of art/animation/pace_of_storytelling. From my experience... most people don't like having to invent their own thoughts - they take what is given to them and maybe evaluate whether it's sensible/agreeable/logical or not. Modern shows are easy to scan for Moe - the industry is well aware of the economic advantages of Moe and people are used to thinking of Moe for new shows. How many people discuss Moe for the really old shows though?

As for the rest, it's down to Low Statistics. I've said numerous times last year, the results from Saimoe voting contests don't mean much to me because we don't have enough votes. We're getting a few thousand votes on our most heated matches - I'll start taking results seriously when we get a few hundred thousand. Rabid and Vocal fanbases don't mean much if they're not aware or motivated for these 'small' contests. I mean, Saimoe Japan was in 2ch with millions of users. How many votes were we getting again?

[DragoonKain3]

1) As a Kotori fan, Kotori's fanbase I think is just outspoken rather than numerous, considering...

Spoiler for small spoiler:

she gets the shaft time after time in both DC and its second season

2) Simply put, Horo beats everyone in winter '08 season on most people's moe meter. Not to mention True Tear's fanbase is divided, unlike almost united like say, Clannad. On top of that, I fail to see how any of the girls are moe to the majority of people. I just so happen to be the exception to the rule.

And if it's anybody who's moe, it would be either Aiko (for being pitiable) or Noe (for being just weird), and not Hiromi. Emo =/= Moe for most people, despite consisting of the same letters.

3) If we're talking about a non-Japanese, non-Korean audience (of which this league mostly comprises of), then very few have seen or even heard of Kimagure Orange Road. Which is a shame really, as it is the original series where the typical triangle between indecisive male lead, genki/weird girl, and icy/tsundere girl have started.

Looking at it, apart from Sakura, there's no one in the top 40 from before the year 2000, and even she's pretty recent in terms of when the series was available to the English anime community.

I personally have Madoka as my favourite lead before Yuuko of 12 Kingdoms, but didn't vote for her since on the moe meter Ukyo beats her in every respect IMO. But then again, I'm heavily biased lol.

And shameless advertising, but KOR has recently been unlicensed and Live-eviL is doing an excellent job on their subs. And don't let it being old fool you, as the remastered DVDs looks better than most recent shows. It's a definite must watch, if only to see where the typical romance anime came from.

4) Another old series. And here I thought Misa has a bigger following... but moe? I can see neither as one.

5) Can't comment, as to me that series is sleep-inducinzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

6) Didn't Tsukino make it to one of the saimoe tourney proper? She was beaten by none other than #7. Loli > all lol

7) Non-human + loli-looking = no comment from me.

But seriously, Hazuki was beaten by Rin, considered to be one of the most popular tsunderes of all time. If things were a bit different, it would be Hazuki that would've been an auto-shoo in and not Rin, since I doubt Rin's going to get any votes when there's Saber around.

[Psieye]

Hazuki I consider to be one of those slightly over-hyped characters who fell short in the end. Kinda like Hinagiku last year. Besides, Hazuki's time was a few years ago. Of course she won't be doing so well on this nominations phase where we only have 5 votes (weighted too) - how many Moe characters can you think up of? There are probably over 100 characters I want to nominate - I still haven't nominated because (aside from not having much free time away from hobbies and work) I don't know who to pick this time round. An older character would need to be absolutely outstanding to get priority over lots of fresh memories of modern characters.

[minhtam1638]

*sigh*... cruddy morning today. Let's see if I can get everything straightened out here.

When it comes to old characters, somebody recently left me a post over at the ISML forum making a reasonable but extremely excrutiating request:

Originally Posted by Xuanwu

Right now there are only 17 slots open, but nominations can come from any era. This clearly weights things to the recent competitors fresh in people's minds. As a result, this tournament won't be comprehensive, meaning the winner can't be considered the "#1 Moe character." Despite the past Saimoe tourneys, for example, Rei Ayanami can still be argued as the #1 moe character of all time because of the strength of her fanbase and merchandise sales. So if she's not in the competition, nothing will be settled in that respect.

It'd be nice to auto-include the older notable moe cases so they don't have to be nominated. Expand to 128 slots total, as well, so recent favorites could still be included. Then you'd have a competition that could truly claim to represent a cross-section of moe-dom.

Suggestions for auto-inclusion:

1. Rei, Asuka, and Misato from Evangelion

2. Fujiko from Lupin III

3. Dirty Pair, Yuri and Kei

4. Yomiko Readman from Read or Die

5. Sailor Moon, pretty much the whole cast, or at least the Inner Senshi

6. Pretty Cure (the original only)

7. Lum, from Urusei Yatsura, arguably Rumiko Takahashi's most iconic character

8. Ranma 1/2, take your pick

9. Faye Valentine and Ed, Cowboy Bebop

10. Misty/Kasumi and Jesse/Musashi from Pokemon (Pokemon's not a great show, but it was incredibly popular, so the two female stars were the first crushes of more than one young otaku of that time)

That eats up most of the 17 slots right there and it's only a partial list. So, again, I recommend expanding to allow more of the "classic moe" entries. Else, the title of "#1 moe character" will continue to go unresolved.

To which I left this reply:

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

While I agree with your proposal 90% (the 10% being Pokemon), there are negative effects on this.

1. I really wanted to research Saimoe even further and include entries from 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 respectively. However, the effects of that would mean that I would have to add more slots. As much as I would like to do an 128 x 128 league, it's virtually impossible unless I become a hikkimori (and I do have a life, thank you very much), and even as a hikkimori, that's pushing it. Currently, 64 x 64 is already pushing it, as the total number of regular season matches that I have to administrate, observe, and rule, is 63 x 32 = 2016. By increasing the total number of participants to 128, the total number of matches will be 127 x 64 = 8128, which is a lot more time consuming on my end and a lot more exhausting for the voters. And decreasing the number of matches will only make this league unfair for some participants, as strength of schedule is completely different.

2. Including girls automatically from before 2002, where there is no basis as to who really is moe, will only promote favoritism, and while I myself like to see Ayu Tsukimiya in this event, since she would be considered as a Rei Ayanami II, I need to include a set written in stone basis of qualification for this event. I know that it really isn't fair to those who were snubbed because of their matchups in Japan or Korea, but it is the only thing I can do at this point.

3. Yes, this tournament does weigh heavily on the more recent characters, since the basis I used was 2006 and 2007. However, the plan is to run this league every year, and the top 32 finishers from this tournament automatically qualify to be in next year's tournament as well. So if Rei Ayanami et al. doesn't get in this year, they'll just have a chance next year.

4. Misty and Jessie were entered in a handful of Saimoe tournaments, and they didn't even qualify because of lack of participation.

Now let me begin to emphasize: Yes. It does indeed weigh heavily toward the more recent characters - the only pre-2005 character I see in the yellow-to-purple region is the Cardcaptor Sakura characters, and that is understandable since Sakura Kinamoto (if I spell her surname wrong again, put an apple pie in my face), 2002 Saimoe Japan Champion, pretty much stood out within that year along with others. But other than that, characters from series such as the Sailor Moon girls and NGE end up being the forgotten ones merely because the Saimoe craze didn't start until 2002.

Oh, I didn't realize that I didn't announce the matchups for the third test here. Oh, well, I think everyone should know what they are at this point.

[KholdStare]

Can I just make a useless post to say that it's Sakura Kinomoto?

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by wontaek

I am curious. There are some very popular, well known girls that always doesn't do well in these tournaments I wonder why? The female characters I'm referring to are

1. Shirakawa Kotori (D.C.) : Despite rabid fanbase, she seldom does well.
2. Yuasa Hiromi (True Tears): True Tears was one of the most talked about series of this spring winter yet she isn't getting the votes. May be due to many disliking her, fervently.

Yes, Kotori is one of the greatest characters of all time, but she's not really one of the more moe ones. Moe =/= likability in general, so some characters are just great without being moe, like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann's Yoko, for example.
About True Tears: it's only one of the most talked about series because people only talk about three, Shigofumi, Spice and Wolf, and True Tears. (And sometimes Rosario + Vampire to flame Gonzo.)
And I wouldn't say any of the characters are really moe, either. Something about their character designs turned me off at first, but their personalities aren't ones that personify "moe", either.
Since I'm only really old enough to recognise these two, I'll comment on them.

Originally Posted by Psieye

Well... some of those girls are older than the concept of Moe - I'm no expert but I would guess "Moe" as a term was invented around the end of the 90s or so wasn't it?

It was probably mid-90's or so, but Wikipedia says that it's older than time itself. No, but it says that the general concept has been around since The Castle of Cagliostro, though I didn't really find her to be that moe.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Can May I just make a useless post to say that it's Sakura Kinomoto?

It seems like you can.

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm here:

Ahhh! You lost!

No idea how this came about, though, since

Spoiler for Crap:

She also has around two-thirds as many anime as I do, but has about as many 10's as I have 10's, 9's and 8's.

[minhtam1638]

News page on the website has been updated to say the least, but I am very close to having mononucleosis symptoms again, so I'm going to stop here and continue any work tomorrow.

What's new - no test polls scheduled (enjoy your Easter), nominations may see an extension, and there's a banner contest. Oh, and did I mention the new website look?

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

News page on the website has been updated to say the least, but I am very close to having mononucleosis symptoms again, so I'm going to stop here and continue any work tomorrow.

What's new - no test polls scheduled (enjoy your Easter), nominations may see an extension, and there's a banner contest. Oh, and did I mention the new website look?

Once again, I appreciate all that you do for this contest.

And I really like the new page, simply because I'm a softy for blue and feathers.

Note: I'm going to watch Nanoha and Code Geass for this tournament just to copy qtipsex.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

No idea how this came about, though, since

Spoiler for Crap:

She also has around two-thirds as many anime as I do, but has about as many 10's as I have 10's, 9's and 8's.

Okay that's really weird...okay. Maybe it accounts for the ratio of anime shared and anime not shared?

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Once again, I appreciate all that you do for this contest.

And I really like the new page, simply because I'm a softy for blue and feathers.

Note: I'm going to watch Nanoha and Code Geass for this tournament just to copy qtipsex.

Yes, It's a bit nicer than the straight light-green from before.
And it would probably be better to watch Rozen Maiden for this contest than it would be to watch Code Geass, since C.C.'s preranked at 14th (probably mostly because of how popular the anime is. She's not very moe at all.) while Rozen Maiden has four pre-qualified characters ranking in at 1st, 10th, 15th, and 27th.

Actually, don't watch Rozen Maiden and vote against Suiseiseki.
Yay.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Okay that's really weird...okay. Maybe it accounts for the ratio of anime shared and anime not shared?

Totals (unincluding Plan to Watch):
NC - 77
qtip - 120
K, secks - 176

21 similar - roughly 1/4 of NC's list, 1/6 of mine.
61 similar - roughly 1/2 of my list, 1/3 of yours.
Also generally similar ratings (Lucky Star )
ehh.

What compatibility does it say for you?
Link.