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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 791 63.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.80%
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-10-05, 15:41   Link #4101
npal
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How exactly Lelouch gave the world a choice is beyond me. Lelouch planned, Lelouch executed, the world answered EXACTLY as Lelouch had predicted. Just what kind of choice is this? Charles and Schneizer used force, Lelouch used cunning. That's more like "delusion of choice". You do what I want you to do as though you wanted to do it yourself, yet I have created all those parameters that will force you down the path I chose. Therefore you didn't choose, I did. It's not the world's choice, it's Lelouch's choice. He chose the tomorrow he wanted for Nunnally and made it happen. He DID force everyone into someone's vision of the world, whether it's purely Nunnally's or his as well is up to interpretation.
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Old 2008-10-05, 15:52   Link #4102
AceD
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Originally Posted by cors8 View Post
Lelouch forcing everyone into his vision of the world goes against everything he fought for in the end. Charles and Schneizel's plans forced the world to submit or die. Lelouch's was the only one that gave the world a real choice.
i dont think all the people lelouch had killed had much of a choice
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Old 2008-10-05, 15:56   Link #4103
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^ Missed that point, agreed and cookied.
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Old 2008-10-05, 16:18   Link #4104
cors8
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Originally Posted by Voracious Hollow View Post
i dont think all the people lelouch had killed had much of a choice
So the status quo was better? People died for no reason prior to any action Lelouch took. For Lelouch, the ends justified the means most of the time.

And the world's choice that Lelouch gave them was to work towards a real and truly lasting peace with justice or continue fighting each other and the horrors of war.
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Old 2008-10-05, 16:19   Link #4105
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
How exactly Lelouch gave the world a choice is beyond me. Lelouch planned, Lelouch executed, the world answered EXACTLY as Lelouch had predicted. Just what kind of choice is this? Charles and Schneizer used force, Lelouch used cunning. That's more like "delusion of choice". You do what I want you to do as though you wanted to do it yourself, yet I have created all those parameters that will force you down the path I chose. Therefore you didn't choose, I did. It's not the world's choice, it's Lelouch's choice. He chose the tomorrow he wanted for Nunnally and made it happen. He DID force everyone into someone's vision of the world, whether it's purely Nunnally's or his as well is up to interpretation.
It wasn't the fact that Lelouch wanted to give people a choice. It was the fact that Lelouch wanted people to actually want peace instead of just forcing it on people like Schniezel and a huge ass frejia. When people themselves want peace, it's genuine, not some fake dictator crap.
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Old 2008-10-05, 16:24   Link #4106
npal
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The question was do the people REALLY want something Lelouch didn't indirectly dictate and plan to the last detail? Choice is a very difficult thing to have. Making your life a living hell so you can hate and renounce me upon my death isn't exactly what I call choice.
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Old 2008-10-05, 16:42   Link #4107
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
The question was do the people REALLY want something Lelouch didn't indirectly dictate and plan to the last detail? Choice is a very difficult thing to have. Making your life a living hell so you can hate and renounce me upon my death isn't exactly what I call choice.
People don't want peace?
Anyhow, a big part of what Lelouch did was ideally, something Nunnally wanted. It was the first time Lelouch ever got Nunnally right on. Lelouch indirectly manipulated people so they would want peace, so he wouldn't have to force it on them, as Schneizel would've done. Ideally, peace through Lelouch's methods would be more genuine and last longer, but is also more fragile.
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Old 2008-10-05, 19:26   Link #4108
npal
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People probably want peace, but they'd have peace with either Charles, Schneizer or Lelouch. Lelouch adopted Schneizer's way and used it to the extremes to become as hated as possible, then replaced himself with another figurehead, Zerozaku. The only difference to the result that I am aware of is that people THINK they can choose, when in reality, Lelouch planned it so they'd choose exactly what he wanted. He hardly gave them a choice, only a delusion of freedom. The world still moves by his own wishes. That the world can no longer perceive that is irrelevant to the result at hand. That no Geass is used hardly makes it that much different (Oh wait... Schneizer is still Geassed... Yeah, no Geass...choice...). Lelouch did create a world that Nunnally could smile in, a world like Euphie wanted, so all the sacrifices make sense for Lelouch. He didn't care how many he had to kill, as he didn't before, he gave a world to Nunnally, as was his initial wish. If he did it so that the world had a choice, all those who got killed indeed hardly had a choice, to actually consider him a martyr is ridiculous, and to consider his death a just atonement for who knows how many people, who had to die for him to become the most hated tyrant ever, is giving that too much and undue credit.

Doing it so that people can forget Euphie's incident is also something Lelouch would have done, but in this case, he's giving the world even more death to erase the past from their memories. Going down the path of evil to honor and cleanse a friend's memory or creating a world for a loved one to live in happiness is human, and many will sympathize with it, but it's hardly as noble as people make it seem. To actually consider him a Messiah, who sacrificed himself to give the world a false sense of choice, and died for atonement after he plunged the world in despair and massacre... How's that so noble that him being alive is a crime? Because he willingly sacrificed countless lives including his own for a better world? I don't argue about his, but did he ask whether all those people wanted to die for his "Zero Requiem", for this so called "freedom of choice" he gave "selflessly" to the world? When he was first made emperor, Lelouch could have allowed the world to see his good face and not openly provoke everyone if he so desired peace, join the UFN on mutually agreed terms and make a world Nunnally and Euphie would have approved, without ever having to use Damocles, and leaving Schneizer as the sole enemy of everyone, should he had chosen to keep a stance against Lelouch. Sure, he was mistrusted because of the Geass, but that could have been eventually fixed, or he'd just have to live with trying to prove himself trustworthy on every ocassion. So we're actually excusing the death of thousands or millions on the basis of what? Lelouch's death? Lelouch's bad name for eternity? Lelouch's wish to erase Euphie's incident? Lelouch's Zero Requiem which basically gave the world the option he chose for them indirectly? Lelouch's wish to atone for using Geass to bend people's will? Which is redeeming enough? Or is it "people would have been killed anyway" that makes it redeeming enough?

Is THIS the grand ending people fear of losing if Lelouch is alive? If Lelouch DID feel guilty about anything, is getting himself killed better than living on to make up for it? How come Suzaku has to live EXACTLY like that? If Lelouch is indeed dead, isn't Suzaku getting a worse deal, a)having to live with himself, b) having to hide his face from everyone since "Suzaku" is dead, and remembered as the Knight of Zero, the tyrant's number one knight, and c) ever seeking ways to make the world better to atone for whatever his crimes are. Why is it a crime if Lelouch shares a burden similar to Suzaku's, possibly for eternity?

Let's say though that he did die.
He died for the world? Oh please, sure he died for himself, he died for Nunnally, he died for Euphie, possibly for Shirley, even Rolo. Certainly not for the world. So... he made himself hated and died for them...? How is that noble exactly when he had all the chances to honor their memory with putting his whole life to good use instead of using the easy way out?
He gave the world a choice? No, he gave the world the tomorrow HE desired, not a real choice.
He died for atonement? How's getting yourself hated through the usual means (you know, terror, massacre, injustice) and dying according to plan atones for all the lives lost or EVEN for Euphie's memory? Oh, I can see Euphie being delighted at the thought of more people getting killed... It's a disgrace to her memory.

And for the religious westerners, do not confuse getting hated and killed when you have done no crime with purposefully getting yourself hated and killed after you've terrorized the globe and killed countless people.

Lelouch had multiple and harder paths to take to make the world better, after all, a genius like him can think of many ways, yet he chose the easiest out... UNLESS he knew he couldn't die, therefore he'd have to live exactly like Suzaku, in which case, yes, he took the hardest path to atonement while turning the world into the place Nunnally and Euphie wanted. To have to live under a different face, to be hated by everyone while bearing the memory of all your crimes for eternity and finding new ways to honor the memories of the lost, that's far more fulfilling and hard as an end that getting yourself killed after all the suffering you've caused, provided of course you DO repent about it. But Lelouch did have things he regretted. So that makes his chosen path the easiest way out of his guilt, unless he knew he'd actually have to live with it.
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Old 2008-10-05, 19:40   Link #4109
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Wow, that's a lot of words, npal. I just thought the ending was awesome.

Oh... and shouldn't this forum technically be going under OLDER SERIES now?

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Old 2008-10-05, 21:35   Link #4110
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well maybe lelouch is geass version of this http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?i...4398930xo1.jpg (of course i found this sayin in a different forum) about lelouch

Lelouch is the hero that the world deserves, but not the one it needs. That's why the world hates him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He is a silent guardian... a watchful protector... a dark knight.
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Old 2008-10-05, 22:13   Link #4111
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npal, I also don't see it as Lelouch giving the world a choice.

But I may not be following you with some of the other things you have stated...

What he did was the following:

1. Became the Emperor of Britannia.
2. Broke all the lines of Nobility in an effort to destroy all status and lineage based prejudice.
3. Due to what he did above in #2 he most likely receive a lot of resentment and hatred from many within the empire who lost their status...
4. He then set out to make the rest of the world serve him and hate him.
5. He attempted to do this prior to any move that Schniezel would make.
6. He defeated Schneizel in a battle between the Empire and those who weren't a part of it.
7. He stripped everyone else in the world of their status, power, and nobility...
8. They were now all ruled by a "tyrant" who killed anyone who opposed him.
9. He died in a manner that gave the people back their hope for a future, while leaving that prejudice that they all had for each other behind...

Basically he took away the "It's Britannia's Fault!" / "These Damn Elevens need to learn their place!" and such... All of these people who refused to see eye to eye due to their status or hardship had now been put under the same roof, been brought down to the same level, had lost all hope for the future, and this effectively broke the lines of prejudice that had run deep throughout the world...

Now these people that had a bleak hope that was granted by the miracle "death / murder" of their tyrant leader, are now able to work together to talk peacefully without prejudice over what they want for the future...

Up to his death everything had gone to plan that I agree with npal... But he had put faith in the wishes and hopes of the people to learn from their experiences and move on... He only wanted peace for the people at this point, he had no idea how long it would last or how fragile or strong it would be, but he put all the right things in place to make it possible...

There are no real heroes in this story, and really no true villains... What you have here are a bunch of people who wanted similar or some what different things and they each took their own path to find them... In the end it was his experiences through out this journey that lead him down the path that he felt was best... And that was giving the people the best scenario possible for them to work together beyond prejudice to make the choices needed for tomorrow.
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Old 2008-10-05, 22:17   Link #4112
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Now these people that had a bleak hope that was granted by the miracle "death / murder" of their tyrant leader, are now able to work together to talk peacefully without prejudice over what they want for the future...

Up to his death everything had gone to plan that I agree with npal... But he had put faith in the wishes and hopes of the people to learn from their experiences and move on... He only wanted peace for the people at this point, he had no idea how long it would last or how fragile or strong it would be, but he put all the right things in place to make it possible...

There are no real heroes in this story, and really no true villains... What you have here are a bunch of people who wanted similar or some what different things and they each took their own path to find them... In the end it was his experiences through out this journey that lead him down the path that he felt was best... And that was giving the people the best scenario possible for them to work together beyond prejudice to make the choices needed for tomorrow.
That's my understanding of it as well, he destroyed the hatred caused by Charles, and has destroyed the corrupt Britannian society. Its now up to Nunnaly, Cornelia, and Suzaku (because let's be blunt Ougi is useless) to make up the world as is.
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Old 2008-10-05, 23:10   Link #4113
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Based on my understanding. Lelouch finally found his "truth" which is to give the world peace which is Nunnally and Euphemia's ideals. Which is not FORCING ideals on people. But by changing their hearts. That is why he wanted to put all the hate to him so that he can show people that justice will triumph.
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Old 2008-10-05, 23:40   Link #4114
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For the last time, the issue is not whether he died, but whether people think the "tyrant" is gone and they can get on with their lives in a world at last united and working towards peace.
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Old 2008-10-05, 23:46   Link #4115
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Jesus: Died for the world's sins.
Lelouch: Died for his father's and his own sins.

Jesus: Rose again after 3 days.
Lelouch: Rose again after [unknown so far] days.
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Old 2008-10-06, 00:12   Link #4116
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Jesus: Died for the world's sins.
Lelouch: Died for his father's and his own sins.

Jesus: Rose again after 3 days.
Lelouch: Rose again after [unknown so far] days.
Did you just compare Lelouch to JESUS CHRIST?
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Old 2008-10-06, 00:13   Link #4117
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Did you just compare Lelouch to JESUS CHRIST?
I didn't start it though. An earlier post by someone gave me the idea. And it's just for the sake of comparison
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Old 2008-10-06, 01:02   Link #4118
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I didn't start it though. An earlier post by someone gave me the idea. And it's just for the sake of comparison
But theirs an obvious difference, when you look at the records and protrayal of Jesus Christ.
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Old 2008-10-06, 01:07   Link #4119
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That's just it, the portrayal. Geass is a 3rd person view though, looking at what happens while its happening, not BS'd through time like a magical fairytale.
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Old 2008-10-06, 01:10   Link #4120
Droplet
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But theirs an obvious difference, when you look at the records and protrayal of Jesus Christ.
Of course, lol. Don't take it so seriously.
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