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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 791 | 63.74% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 163 | 13.13% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 95 | 7.66% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 67 | 5.40% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 17 | 1.37% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 18 | 1.45% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 7 | 0.56% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 7 | 0.56% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 4 | 0.32% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 72 | 5.80% | |
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll |
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2008-10-05, 15:41 | Link #4101 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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How exactly Lelouch gave the world a choice is beyond me. Lelouch planned, Lelouch executed, the world answered EXACTLY as Lelouch had predicted. Just what kind of choice is this? Charles and Schneizer used force, Lelouch used cunning. That's more like "delusion of choice". You do what I want you to do as though you wanted to do it yourself, yet I have created all those parameters that will force you down the path I chose. Therefore you didn't choose, I did. It's not the world's choice, it's Lelouch's choice. He chose the tomorrow he wanted for Nunnally and made it happen. He DID force everyone into someone's vision of the world, whether it's purely Nunnally's or his as well is up to interpretation.
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2008-10-05, 16:18 | Link #4104 | |
Kuu-chan is hungry
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
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And the world's choice that Lelouch gave them was to work towards a real and truly lasting peace with justice or continue fighting each other and the horrors of war. |
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2008-10-05, 16:19 | Link #4105 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2008-10-05, 16:24 | Link #4106 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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The question was do the people REALLY want something Lelouch didn't indirectly dictate and plan to the last detail? Choice is a very difficult thing to have. Making your life a living hell so you can hate and renounce me upon my death isn't exactly what I call choice.
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2008-10-05, 16:42 | Link #4107 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Anyhow, a big part of what Lelouch did was ideally, something Nunnally wanted. It was the first time Lelouch ever got Nunnally right on. Lelouch indirectly manipulated people so they would want peace, so he wouldn't have to force it on them, as Schneizel would've done. Ideally, peace through Lelouch's methods would be more genuine and last longer, but is also more fragile. |
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2008-10-05, 19:26 | Link #4108 |
I desire Tomorrow!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far away from reality as possible
Age: 41
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People probably want peace, but they'd have peace with either Charles, Schneizer or Lelouch. Lelouch adopted Schneizer's way and used it to the extremes to become as hated as possible, then replaced himself with another figurehead, Zerozaku. The only difference to the result that I am aware of is that people THINK they can choose, when in reality, Lelouch planned it so they'd choose exactly what he wanted. He hardly gave them a choice, only a delusion of freedom. The world still moves by his own wishes. That the world can no longer perceive that is irrelevant to the result at hand. That no Geass is used hardly makes it that much different (Oh wait... Schneizer is still Geassed... Yeah, no Geass...choice...). Lelouch did create a world that Nunnally could smile in, a world like Euphie wanted, so all the sacrifices make sense for Lelouch. He didn't care how many he had to kill, as he didn't before, he gave a world to Nunnally, as was his initial wish. If he did it so that the world had a choice, all those who got killed indeed hardly had a choice, to actually consider him a martyr is ridiculous, and to consider his death a just atonement for who knows how many people, who had to die for him to become the most hated tyrant ever, is giving that too much and undue credit.
Doing it so that people can forget Euphie's incident is also something Lelouch would have done, but in this case, he's giving the world even more death to erase the past from their memories. Going down the path of evil to honor and cleanse a friend's memory or creating a world for a loved one to live in happiness is human, and many will sympathize with it, but it's hardly as noble as people make it seem. To actually consider him a Messiah, who sacrificed himself to give the world a false sense of choice, and died for atonement after he plunged the world in despair and massacre... How's that so noble that him being alive is a crime? Because he willingly sacrificed countless lives including his own for a better world? I don't argue about his, but did he ask whether all those people wanted to die for his "Zero Requiem", for this so called "freedom of choice" he gave "selflessly" to the world? When he was first made emperor, Lelouch could have allowed the world to see his good face and not openly provoke everyone if he so desired peace, join the UFN on mutually agreed terms and make a world Nunnally and Euphie would have approved, without ever having to use Damocles, and leaving Schneizer as the sole enemy of everyone, should he had chosen to keep a stance against Lelouch. Sure, he was mistrusted because of the Geass, but that could have been eventually fixed, or he'd just have to live with trying to prove himself trustworthy on every ocassion. So we're actually excusing the death of thousands or millions on the basis of what? Lelouch's death? Lelouch's bad name for eternity? Lelouch's wish to erase Euphie's incident? Lelouch's Zero Requiem which basically gave the world the option he chose for them indirectly? Lelouch's wish to atone for using Geass to bend people's will? Which is redeeming enough? Or is it "people would have been killed anyway" that makes it redeeming enough? Is THIS the grand ending people fear of losing if Lelouch is alive? If Lelouch DID feel guilty about anything, is getting himself killed better than living on to make up for it? How come Suzaku has to live EXACTLY like that? If Lelouch is indeed dead, isn't Suzaku getting a worse deal, a)having to live with himself, b) having to hide his face from everyone since "Suzaku" is dead, and remembered as the Knight of Zero, the tyrant's number one knight, and c) ever seeking ways to make the world better to atone for whatever his crimes are. Why is it a crime if Lelouch shares a burden similar to Suzaku's, possibly for eternity? Let's say though that he did die. He died for the world? Oh please, sure he died for himself, he died for Nunnally, he died for Euphie, possibly for Shirley, even Rolo. Certainly not for the world. So... he made himself hated and died for them...? How is that noble exactly when he had all the chances to honor their memory with putting his whole life to good use instead of using the easy way out? He gave the world a choice? No, he gave the world the tomorrow HE desired, not a real choice. He died for atonement? How's getting yourself hated through the usual means (you know, terror, massacre, injustice) and dying according to plan atones for all the lives lost or EVEN for Euphie's memory? Oh, I can see Euphie being delighted at the thought of more people getting killed... It's a disgrace to her memory. And for the religious westerners, do not confuse getting hated and killed when you have done no crime with purposefully getting yourself hated and killed after you've terrorized the globe and killed countless people. Lelouch had multiple and harder paths to take to make the world better, after all, a genius like him can think of many ways, yet he chose the easiest out... UNLESS he knew he couldn't die, therefore he'd have to live exactly like Suzaku, in which case, yes, he took the hardest path to atonement while turning the world into the place Nunnally and Euphie wanted. To have to live under a different face, to be hated by everyone while bearing the memory of all your crimes for eternity and finding new ways to honor the memories of the lost, that's far more fulfilling and hard as an end that getting yourself killed after all the suffering you've caused, provided of course you DO repent about it. But Lelouch did have things he regretted. So that makes his chosen path the easiest way out of his guilt, unless he knew he'd actually have to live with it.
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2008-10-05, 21:35 | Link #4110 |
KLAC OF THE ANIME WORLD
Join Date: May 2007
Location: gs series
Age: 34
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well maybe lelouch is geass version of this http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?i...4398930xo1.jpg (of course i found this sayin in a different forum) about lelouch
Lelouch is the hero that the world deserves, but not the one it needs. That's why the world hates him, because he can take it. Because he's not a hero. He is a silent guardian... a watchful protector... a dark knight.
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2008-10-05, 22:13 | Link #4111 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NJ
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npal, I also don't see it as Lelouch giving the world a choice.
But I may not be following you with some of the other things you have stated... What he did was the following: 1. Became the Emperor of Britannia. 2. Broke all the lines of Nobility in an effort to destroy all status and lineage based prejudice. 3. Due to what he did above in #2 he most likely receive a lot of resentment and hatred from many within the empire who lost their status... 4. He then set out to make the rest of the world serve him and hate him. 5. He attempted to do this prior to any move that Schniezel would make. 6. He defeated Schneizel in a battle between the Empire and those who weren't a part of it. 7. He stripped everyone else in the world of their status, power, and nobility... 8. They were now all ruled by a "tyrant" who killed anyone who opposed him. 9. He died in a manner that gave the people back their hope for a future, while leaving that prejudice that they all had for each other behind... Basically he took away the "It's Britannia's Fault!" / "These Damn Elevens need to learn their place!" and such... All of these people who refused to see eye to eye due to their status or hardship had now been put under the same roof, been brought down to the same level, had lost all hope for the future, and this effectively broke the lines of prejudice that had run deep throughout the world... Now these people that had a bleak hope that was granted by the miracle "death / murder" of their tyrant leader, are now able to work together to talk peacefully without prejudice over what they want for the future... Up to his death everything had gone to plan that I agree with npal... But he had put faith in the wishes and hopes of the people to learn from their experiences and move on... He only wanted peace for the people at this point, he had no idea how long it would last or how fragile or strong it would be, but he put all the right things in place to make it possible... There are no real heroes in this story, and really no true villains... What you have here are a bunch of people who wanted similar or some what different things and they each took their own path to find them... In the end it was his experiences through out this journey that lead him down the path that he felt was best... And that was giving the people the best scenario possible for them to work together beyond prejudice to make the choices needed for tomorrow. |
2008-10-05, 22:17 | Link #4112 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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2008-10-05, 23:10 | Link #4113 |
I'm trying to find you..
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Based on my understanding. Lelouch finally found his "truth" which is to give the world peace which is Nunnally and Euphemia's ideals. Which is not FORCING ideals on people. But by changing their hearts. That is why he wanted to put all the hate to him so that he can show people that justice will triumph.
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