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View Poll Results: Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 61 | 71.76% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 17.65% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 5 | 5.88% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 2 | 2.35% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 1.18% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.18% | |
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-04-30, 20:59 | Link #181 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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And, lets remember the Milgram experiments; better than half of the participants were willing to kill another person just cause a guy in a lab coat told them to. That makes Mustang's actions in keeping with what the majority of the population would have done then. Makes it hard to condemn him for doing what most people would have done, especially when you weigh intent (I find that important for morality, in case you can't tell ). I personally see him as having found another option from what the guy in the white coat told him to do (defending his men was his goal, not killing as ordered), but even if you don't agree with that, his actions are typical of those in that situation. Quote:
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2010-04-30, 22:40 | Link #182 | |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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As some have said, I think Roy is like Kenshin post-Tomoe but pre-Meiji Era. We have yet to see what he does after this is over. |
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2010-05-01, 08:51 | Link #183 | ||||||||
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Lol. Hell yeah I lack empathy. He's a mass murderer of an innocent population. I don't care if he was guilty or remorseful or did it against his will. He has free will, and he did it. There's no defending that. I don't care who you are or what your reason; you could be the nicest person in the world - the minute you mass murder a group of innocent men, women and children, you're a contemptible human being, in my opinion. Quote:
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2010-05-01, 10:18 | Link #184 |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Don't you love it when you hit a button on the keyboard that makes a whole giant post get erased? And you haven't Ctrl + C'd it?
Ranting aside, the core of my post was this question: how long can you wait before "being reasonable" (waiting for another solution, suggestion, person who is more worthy) becomes "omission"? If Roy thought of every possibility he could, and didn't find a way. If he asked everyone he could, and no one suggested anything better. How long could he wait to find a better solution without changing from being reasonable to being a coward? I don't have the answer, because I still don't know what would be the right thing in this situation. Everyone weighs the pros and cons, and make their decisions based on what they think is more pro or less con. I do not believe there is a god, or a higher power, or ultimate judgement. There is no absolute right or absolute wrong. I believe we are here now, and this life is all there is, so we can't keep hoping that other people come up with better solution just because we don't like the path to the outcome. No one would have ever done anything if everyone thought like this. I know that dictator's and many horrible people also thought like this. I was going to use Hitler as an example, but I don't know if this would crucify me, so I'm going with this: even though I may not agree with some people's actions, I can admire their determination. Please note that this is not in any way saying that "bad actions" are good just because someone is determined. Even if I admire someone's determination, I can still fight against that person and also have completely different ideas of right and wrong. Determination is not related to respect to others, or anything but the will to do something. Again using the example of Kenshin, I remembered that after the Shishio arc, Yahiko said "Were we right? We must be the correct ones, right? We won." and Kenhin responded "If you think we are right because we won, you're thinking just like Shishio did." In the end, I think some people are just more lucky or capable of establishing their view of what is right or wrong. With that in mind, I think Roy thought he couldn't wait longer because it would be omission from his part. |
2010-05-01, 10:22 | Link #185 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The town where Copernicus was born.
Age: 38
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Sorry for the late response but I've had more important things to do. Nonetheless this discussion is interesting and I wouldn't want to drop it yet.
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As for Kenshin vs. Roy, Kenshin AFAIR didn't face anyone that could be an analogue to Envy. |
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2010-05-01, 11:52 | Link #186 |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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This is a really interesting discussion, I have to confess.
For me, the Kenshin/Mustang compare and contrast really points up Roy's raison d'etre in life all the more. Roy is the ultimate practicalist - every decision seems to be an equation. Will the eventual good outweigh the immediate harm? If yes, "engage". That's it - cold practical algebra. Wheras with Kenshin, his eventual choice was to pursue a path independent of the practical considerations. Call it idealism or whatever you like, but he abandoned his course because he found it morally indefensible, and pursued a path of pacifism because he found it intrinsically worthy for his own sake. As to the question of moral culpability, I do think it's an oversimplification to say "both did bad things, so there can be no distinction". There are degrees of wrong, surely - can we compare Hitler with Vladamir Putin? I find both distasteful, but I can make a distinction between the depth of their crimes against humaity. I think the most important distinctions between Kenshin and Roy are twofold. First, that Kenshin was fighting a war against well-armed and trained opponents who had started the conflict, wheras Roy was executing a genocide against civilians. And second, Kenshin was a child (15 years old, ironically the same age as Ed at the start of FMA) at the time. In a way, it might be more useful to compare Mustang with Armstrong. Again, Mustang made what he saw as the practical choice - "These people are going to die anyway, whether I kill them or not - but if I kill them, I might be able to prevent the next genocide later." Armstrong chose what I would call an act of civil disobedience - irrespective of the outcome, he simply couldn't stomach being a part of it anymore. He paid a heavy price - his career was derailed. His sister dismissed him as a coward and basically disowned him. Roy, OTOH, had his career in tact and was able to launch a lifelong quest for power.
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2010-05-01, 12:10 | Link #187 | |
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Join Date: May 2004
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2010-05-01, 12:10 | Link #188 |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Whatever, lonewolf777, stick to your talking points and ignore the advances in the discussion where they don't suit you. You may believe that revenge is justified, but I wager most do not (considering most countries' laws), and that's one of the morals of the series, or else Scar would still be whacking alchemists. You may not believe that redemption is possible for even the lowest of trangressors, but I wager most of us do, as the author clearly does, and the last episode clearly states. You may choose to ignore 106 chapters of characterization and believe that Roy Mustang is in it for personal glory and position instead of personal redemption and punishment, but I wager most of us take the series at face value, and do not. You obviously don't realize the depth of the situation Mustang was in or the thoughts behind his actions, as illustrated by the author, because we've been explaining them for most of the last 10 pages and you continually answer the same way, with barely an acknowledgment of their existence.
We get it. You don't like Mustang. You find his actions horrible and unjustifiable. Guess what, so do we. The difference lies in that we don't think he had a better choice. You say he could have taken his men and ran, but you ignore everything we've seen about this military that tells us he and his men would have been killed for desertion (not having a powerful family for cover like Alex) and the Ishbalans would have been slaughtered just the same, probably more painfully. And even before that, you look at the situation as if he knew all the horrors that awaited him in Ishbal before he torched his first rebel. You think they break in their precious state alchemists on the women and children first? Or on the combatants, to instill a healthy fear for and enmity against the ones who are able to fight back, so that they all start to look alike? And actually, do we ever see Mustang nuking noncombatants? Or is it just that one "former" combatant mentioned already with the gut wound (chapter 61), who probably had several hours of agonizing death ahead of him had Mustang let him go (since Scar had just killed the only Ishbalan-friendly doctors around)? You imply he should have known the military would do things like this and should have never joined them in the first place. We say he was naive to what was really going on. Do you think the horrors of the Ishbal-style extermination campaigns were the kind of thing that got any unbiased press? Does any militaristic country ever let that kind of "poor for recruitment" message reach the public? Do we even know if the cause of the Ishbal Rebellion was common knowledge when he joined up to "help and protect the people of his country" (chapter 58)? The public certainly didn't know that the point was to kill as many people as possible. On both sides, of course. Mustang didn't find that out until the course of the series. You say that Mustang put the lives of himself and his men above those of the Ishbalans. Damn straight he did. They were trying to kill him and his men. And were doing a very good job on the other units, or else the state alchemists might never have been called in in the first place. However you find yourself there, you can't exactly throw down your arms and say "hold up, I don't want to kill you any more" in the middle of a war, especially one as bloody as this one. That's a very good way to get "gift horsed" and take the Pine Box Express back home. Related to that, you scoff at the idea that Mustang is doing this to better the country. You consistently say "he's doing such-and-such to elevate/protect his position" but pay little more than lip service to what his stated plans are and what he has done to ensure he keeps himself on the straight and narrow. Like the young lady at his back, whose primary job is to take him out should he step off that path, something she is willing to and almost had to do this last episode. And we see that she's not going anywhere. If he wasn't willing to have her die after she killed him, he sure as hell wouldn't be looking to replace her with someone more lenient once he reaches his position. Read over 61 again. Between his conversations with Hughes and Hawkeye, you get his entire basic reason for continuing to be. He's taking on the responsibility of both those below him and those potentially below him. He's the one "crossing the river of blood" and "shouldering the corpses" so that it doesn't need to be done by the next generation. Sometimes people have to do distasteful things to make things better. We all like to say the ends don't justify the means (at least I hope we do), but sometimes there's no justifying the only means that will get you to a worthy end. But if those are the only means you have available to you, how can you not, in "good" conscience, use them? Whether it's a scrambled brain, or an incinerated body, killing is killing. Murder is murder. "Sin", as seven of the characters in this series will tell you, is "sin". There's no justification for it. But sometimes it's going to happen anyway, and you just have to do your best to use it to steer things to a better situation down the road. I'm through arguing this. I personally suggest, with all my non-existent clout, that we take this to the Mustang thread if we insist on continuing it, but at the very least, let's not take it into the next episode thread. We've already tarnished the best episode of this series with this inane discussion...
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2010-05-01, 12:19 | Link #189 | |
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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2010-05-01, 13:24 | Link #190 |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Well, now - inane, really? I don't disagree that this evolved into something more suitable for the Mustang thread than the episode thread, though it started as a debate on the Envy situation. Still - I think it's been a very interesting discussion, with some well-reasoned opinions on both sides and mostly (but not always) a respectful tone. There's lots of inane posts scattered all over the place on these boards, but I take issue with the term as applied here.
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2010-05-01, 13:36 | Link #191 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Isn't Arakawa telling you here that there's always a "better choice"? Of course it is, that's the whole point of this scene.... yet, you say Roy didn't have a better choice? Sorry, but I think it's clear the series itself renders this argument invalid.
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2010-05-01, 14:00 | Link #192 | |
Anxious bookseller
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Location: Shibuya Psychic Research
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2010-05-01, 17:54 | Link #193 |
Retweet Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
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Late to the party as always, but..Wow, absolute brilliance this episode...I almost even felt sorry for that scum Envy...Um I guess it's fair to say that Mustang is unbeatable at this point...Simplistic and refined power he possesses...I rank the origin episode for "Little one in the Flask" as the best episode of the series...This episode was in the same area code...I don't think I can take this much epic every week...Since about the mid-30's I've been awed by the intensity of this series...
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2010-05-01, 18:31 | Link #194 | |||||||||
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2010-05-01, 19:09 | Link #195 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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And don't forget that the series isn't over. Al and Ed still haven't gotten their bodies back. I think it safe to say that the story seems to be pointing toward a "save everybody" ending, but "get our bodies back", especially concerning both brothers, is still very much in limbo.
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2010-05-02, 00:49 | Link #196 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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So really, I don't see why we should take Roy's situation into account... clearly Arakawa doesn't care about such things...
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2010-05-02 at 01:00. |
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2010-05-02, 04:09 | Link #197 |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Whatever, whatever, none of that is important now. Just saw 55 and I'm juiced about the "special guest star"... Hehe... Where's our episode thread at? I have got to do some talking about this! ^_^
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Last edited by quigonkenny; 2010-05-02 at 04:25. |
2010-05-03, 00:00 | Link #198 | |
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