Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Double standards, again. Heroes does it, we praise them for being pragmatist badasses. Villains does that they are reviled for being cheating honorless monsters.

Indeed, that's why over the course of a year my argument regarding Force Ch. 07 slowly changed from "Cypha is a cheating bastard" to "Signum is an inefficient swordswoman". We can't blame Cypha for using her Anti-Magic powers so all the blame lies on Signum.

EDIT: Page claimed for honor being condemned to lose against cheating.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Double standards, again. Heroes does it, we praise them for being pragmatist badasses. Villains does that they are reviled for being cheating honorless monsters.

Since when?

Cheating has always been considered cool!

Hell, more often than note a cheating villain gets more and more importance and fans.

Of course, if someone hates another character, he will always find ways to insult him (and if he loves it, he will always excuse him).

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Of course, if someone hates another character, he will always find ways to insult him (and if he loves it, he will always excuse him).

Heh, i love Signum the most but that don't stop me from admitting she totally blew it against Cypha xD

[Justin_Brett]

What, you mean people are UNFAIR to a villain who was meant to be disliked, and did a pretty good job of it? What a revelation. Seriously, people dislike antagonistic characters, that's a fact. Exactly when did this turn into a court case or something?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Since when?

Since a long time.

Cheating has always been considered cool!

Not really. Combat pragmatists only got more loving since Spaghetti Westerns, before that, having a hero cheating his way to win would have been unthinkable. Yes, you gotta thank a cheating Italian for making cheating heroes cool. Admit it, without Clint Eastwood's Man with No Name, we would not have Han Solo, Indy shooting the swordman, or Guts holding the loli as hostage.

Hell, more often than note a cheating villain gets more and more importance and fans.

In the same series, a honorable villain will have more chance to gain popularity than one who cheats. Ask Hokuto no Ken fans about it.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sheba

In the same series, a honorable villain will have more chance to gain popularity than one who cheats. Ask Hokuto no Ken fans about it.

This. A THOUSAND times this.

An admirable but antagonistic worhty opponent always be cooler than a gloating Smug Snake.

Zest *o*

[WarpObscura]

I'd just like to throw this quote out, because I think it's relevant.

"It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving."

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Sheba

In the same series, a honorable villain will have more chance to gain popularity than one who cheats. Ask Hokuto no Ken fans about it.

Well, the Hisoka/Kuroro fanbase is quite split

[dahak]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I suppose I should specificy that if one actually wants to live, the survival instinct is very powerful.

Then its not a relevant argument since it isn't something that prevents you from making other decisions.

Incidently there is no single survival instinct. There are instinctual behaviours that evolved as pro survival of the species, which are quite the same thing.

And one of the marks of sapiance is not being held hostage to your instincts, but understanding that you do things for other reasons.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Again, look at Kevorkian.

Kevorkian was repeatedly acquitted. He was only convicted when he decided to represent himself and the Judge refused to hear any of the witnesses he want to call.

That you appear blind to the subtleties of the case [Kevorkian often acted in a manner that while probably correct didn't sufficiently document it to avoid the possibilty he was commiting murder]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

And yeah, Thoma wanted to seclude himself and let the virus consume him... at first.

I took that as he wanted to crash into the ground at or above terminal velocity, myself, rather than wait to die.

Same logic Zest used.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Okay, I should have clarified more.

You appear to mean try an argument that is in total contradiction to what you said.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I have a problem when a 3rd party thinks they can decide what other 2 parties deserve to live or not.

There is a basic logical flaw in that. To whit Murders are always going to be in favour of them killing people and their victims are dead and so are lacking agency.

Thus you can't punish murderers. Because you get one vote for it was fine and one abstention due to death. Oh and Kevorkian committed no crime in your eyes, since he and his patients are the two parties involved, so I'm not sure why you keep bring him up.

The second flaw is that it denies people the opportunity to invest in a third party the ability to decide if they were acceptably killed as part of banding together to maximise their chances of survival. Or have you given up on survival being the highest moral imperative?

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

A person considering their own life to be more important to them, well, that goes without saying.

Actually that one doesn't either. And is the exact opposite of what you said.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

They have a strict set of rules for when it's okay to kill. "Anyone who looks at you funny is fair game" was not one of them.

Er no. They claim to have rules requiring them to exterminate all witnesses and anyone who opposes them. Not any forbidding them from killing.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Yes, because the Bureau would *so* go out of its way to make sure that a cure was found for the Hucks before they turned into lumps of flesh.

I believe they would have tried. If nothing else putting the Huckebein in Eternal Coffin buys an indefinite amount of time, since their disease isn't going to progress while they are in temporal stasis.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Chrono, back in A's, was quite WILLING to fire the Arc En Ciel towards the Earth to stop the Book of Darkness. He didn't consider teleporting the core into space until Nanoha, Hayate and Fate pointed out that it was possible.

Not firing the Arc en Ciel would have resulted in the destruction of the earth. Chrono was willing to kill a smaller number of people to save the rest. That he hadn't realised that the resources available to him gave him another option first isn't a great flaw since his iteration down the strategy tree was optimising for preventing a planetary annihilation. It wasn't as if he was less than delighted with the alternative plan.

[vic-vic]

Originally Posted by dahak

I believe they would have tried. If nothing else putting the Huckebein in Eternal Coffin buys an indefinite amount of time, since their disease isn't going to progress while they are in temporal stasis.

I don`t think that Huckbein would like to go into magic-induced coma. Moreover, what will prevent TSAB from simply leave them in such state, instead of finding cure.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by dahak

I believe they would have tried. If nothing else putting the Huckebein in Eternal Coffin buys an indefinite amount of time, since their disease isn't going to progress while they are in temporal stasis.

Eternal Coffin wouldn't work. Anti-magic and such. In a society where magic is key, they have no way that we know of to put the Huckebein in stasis, because the Eclipse makes that impossible--so currently the Bureau would have no way of halting their inevitable destruction as they search for a cure.

[itanshi1]

Somebody here had a signature that befits the topic of discussion here, hmm who was it

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Eternal Coffin wouldn't work. Anti-magic and such. In a society where magic is key, they have no way that we know of to put the Huckebein in stasis, because the Eclipse makes that impossible--so currently the Bureau would have no way of halting their inevitable destruction as they search for a cure.

Given that Materialized ice works, then yes, Eternal Coffin would work.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Given that Materialized ice works, then yes, Eternal Coffin would work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Eternal Coffin spell wasn't actually ice. Some supplementary material saying it was just stasis and not actual ice. If that's the case, I don't see the spell working on them.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Eternal Coffin spell wasn't actually ice. Some supplementary spell saying it was just stasis and not actual ice. If that's the case, I don't see the spell working on them.

Really? I thinked Eternal Coffing was an ice-based spell with the magic creating and stasis effect. Still i don't see it working on the Hucks, yough.


That makes me questioning the description of M.C.F.(Mana Conversion Affinity), it's supposed to tranform magic instantly into another type of energy, yet Cypha's divider was able to effortlessly dispell Agito's multi fireball spell. How can this work? Is the description about MCF inaccurate? Because if Cypha was able to dispell it means that was still magic and not real fire.

[green-link94]

the energy source that kept the fire going was cut off.

it would probably have worked if she had used her affinity like a flamethrower.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That makes me questioning the description of M.C.F.(Mana Conversion Affinity), it's supposed to tranform magic instantly into another type of energy, yet Cypha's divider was able to effortlessly dispell Agito's multi fireball spell. How can this work? Is the description about MCF inaccurate? Because if Cypha was able to dispell it means that was still magic and not real fire.

Was it stated that Agito used M.C.F. ?
Homing fireballs without any fuel sounds like magic to me.
And I think Cypha is the best of the Hucks at the Magic Canceling thing... Read that somewhere, please correct me if I`m wrong.
Isis and Veyron both used fire/explosions on their infected opponent just fine.

[Akiyoshi]

I don't know where's the official source but the Wikia confirmed Agito as having a Fire attribute MCF.

I also, at first, handwaved Cypha canceling the fireball spell as Agito not really having the MCF like Signum does, but apparently the supplemental material listed Agito as a Fire MCF user so the description of "instantly tranforming magic into a different type of energy/element" enter in conflict with the Eclipse's specifications about it's anti-magic properties. Just as you Said, Veyron uses fire just fine and Isis creates explosions so the Eclipse is unable to cancel regular fire which means the official description about Fire MCF is incorrect.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I don't know where's the official source but the Wikia confirmed Agito as having a Fire attribute MCF.

I also, at first, handwaved Cypha canceling the fireball spell as Agito not really having the MCF like Signum does, but apparently the supplemental material listed Agito as a Fire MCF user so the description of "instantly tranforming magic into a different type of energy/element" enter in conflict with the Eclipse's specifications about it's anti-magic properties. Just as you Said, Veyron uses fire just fine and Isis creates explosions so the Eclipse is unable to cancel regular fire which means the official description about Fire MCF is incorrect.

Maybe in that case, it was different.
It was a spell with a delay and Signum was the one controling it.
If her MCF is instant, than she couldn`t used it for a spell like that.
Just my two cents... I can be 100% wrong here.