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Old 2014-12-26, 22:58   Link #521
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I would assume his cousin that helped in the battle.

Someone said above (I think) what happens to the Arkenstone in the book, which is almost guaranteed to be in the extended edition.
I'll look forward to seeing that if it's in the extended edition. But for now I'll enjoy laughing at the idea that Bard managed to sneak off with the jewel everyone had been so focused on before hell broke loose .
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Old 2014-12-29, 01:13   Link #522
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
In a sense this movie was kind of hilarious.

Only half way home from the theater did I even think about the fate of the things that the conflicts in this movie were based on. Who is King under the Mountain now? What's going to happen with all that gold? Did Bard seriously just manage to sneak off with the Arkenstone?
If you'd read Lord of the Rings, or The Hobbit, Dain becomes King under the Mountain, given that he's Thorin's cousin and next in line.

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They did a good job tying this in with the LOTR and make it all fit nicely as a 6 movie epic. But it's just kind of hilarious that so much was kind of ducked. I enjoyed the movie and the conclusion and didn't even think about what they kind of left out of mention until I was half way home.

I will say though my least liked moment was Thorin and his bunch charged the field and turned the tide of the battle...You are half a dozen guys! You aren't leading an army of the dead here. I was ok with some of them dying since that's the kind of result that is going to happen.
That actually happened in the book as well; Thorin and his crew basically charged out, and the Dwarven army rallied.

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In the end the Hobbit films were fine. They were solid setup for the LOTR movies. But it's probably that trilogy of movies I'll see many times again and less the Hobbit movies. Good movies, but not quite as drawn towards having to rewatch them often.
Can't blame you. IMO this trilogy doesn't quite match up, but it's not bad by any measure.

I did enjoy Dol Gondur though. Galadriel walking into the fortress and pwning that orc, and then tenderly carrying Gandalf out, and then the Nine in all their power and armor and ghostly glory converge on her, Sauron's mocking-

"I am not alone."

And then Saruman and Elrond appear and kick arse.

Still, I'm very disappointed there was no shout of "Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!" as the Dwarves go to work on the elves.
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Old 2014-12-30, 15:04   Link #523
willx
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Yeah, this trilogy wasn't nearly as good as the Lord of the Rings series..

What bugged me the most were the liberties that the writers took with some of the content:
1) I don't remember any of Thorin's company dying in the book other than himself
2) Aren't they supposed to emerge covered in the finest weapons and armor which helps them turn the tide?
3) Related to #1, but this whole Tauriel falls in love with dwarf and then he dies buts he lives thing kind of seems awkward. It did definitely keep me guessing -> "Happy end? Sad end? Both dead? Hm, well, they can't kill off the woman I guess." And heck. how do you explain her being missing in the Lord of the Rings series then? Oh, and suddenly Legolas' dad stopped being racist? Or class/racist with respect to wood elves?
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Old 2014-12-30, 15:12   Link #524
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I remember three of the party dying. Thorin, Kili, and Fili. I don't remember if it was covered in the Hobbit but it was covered in The Return of the King.
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Old 2014-12-30, 15:33   Link #525
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I remember three of the party dying. Thorin, Kili, and Fili. I don't remember if it was covered in the Hobbit but it was covered in The Return of the King.
The tomb of Balin in Moria. Ori is also there. Balin and co went to moria to reclaim it against the advice of the current king.
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Yeah, this trilogy wasn't nearly as good as the Lord of the Rings series..

What bugged me the most were the liberties that the writers took with some of the content:
1) I don't remember any of Thorin's company dying in the book other than himself
2) Aren't they supposed to emerge covered in the finest weapons and armor which helps them turn the tide?
3) Related to #1, but this whole Tauriel falls in love with dwarf and then he dies buts he lives thing kind of seems awkward. It did definitely keep me guessing -> "Happy end? Sad end? Both dead? Hm, well, they can't kill off the woman I guess." And heck. how do you explain her being missing in the Lord of the Rings series then? Oh, and suddenly Legolas' dad stopped being racist? Or class/racist with respect to wood elves?
Elves can die cause of grief. Lúthien is an example when Beren died.

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Old 2014-12-30, 17:33   Link #526
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Originally Posted by Ghiest Cid View Post
The tomb of Balin in Moria. Ori is also there. Balin and co went to moria to reclaim it against the advice of the currentLut
Oín also died there because of the Watcher in the Water. The remainder of the Company is still alive and serving under Dáin Ironfoot, though they were quite elderly by the time Frodo reached Rivendell.
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Yeah, this trilogy wasn't nearly as good as the Lord of the Rings series..
That's the problem when you try to adapt a short children's book into a first-rate feature film. The three LotR books gave PJ and his writers a lot of padding and wriggle room, but the Hobbit, with its difference in tone and smaller content, presented a new kind of challenge, especially since PJ wanted his first film trilogy to be an extension of the new one.
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2) Aren't they supposed to emerge covered in the finest weapons and armor which helps them turn the tide?
I'm afraid that route kind of got cockblocked with the "the mountain's gold is cursed with dragon sickness" theme that PJ used to illustrate Thorin's moral decay and upwelling greed. I mean, he even threw down his own grandfather's crown when he realized what he was becoming. The sequence after that pretty much proclaimed that them dwarves were not defined by their love of gold but by their unwavering loyalty and their inability to turn away from a battle. Which is why they ditched the bling and settled for good ole doughty iron.
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3) Related to #1, but this whole Tauriel falls in love with dwarf and then he dies buts he lives thing kind of seems awkward.
Uh...he does die, both in the novel and the movie...unless my memory cheats me spectacularly, PJ seldom if ever allowed characters doomed to die in the books to survive in the movies, especially if they hold prominent roles. The only case I remember where a non-background character did NOT follow his ordained fate was Beregond, who died in the defense of Osgiliath in the third LotR movie (he gets speared on the ground by Gothmog, Sauron's deformed lieutenant) instead of becoming Faramir's vassal in Ithilien during the restoration of Gondor;
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And heck. how do you explain her being missing in the Lord of the Rings series then?
Simple. She sailed over the sea and went to Valinor, answering the Valar's summons as all Elves are eventually meant to do (save, of course, Arwen, who will stay due to both grief and the fact that there will be no gray ship left in Middle-Earth, capable of bearing her to the Undying Lands), finding solace in a land of eternal song and bliss.
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Oh, and suddenly Legolas' dad stopped being racist? Or class/racist with respect to wood elves?
Racist...? Well, thing is, his anger against the Dwarves appears to be born from the fact that Thrór, Thorin's grandfather, somehow got his hands on the White Gems of Lasgalen, a necklace wrought by the Elves of Mirkwood, reportedly as a wedding gift for Thranduil's now-deceased wife (Legolas later reveals she died at Gundabad and her body was never recovered). If you remember the first movie's extended edition, Thrór was practically goading Thranduil with them, almost snatching them from right under his nose ---- thus turning into a feud what was, so far, a perfectly mellow relationship between neighboring sovereigns. So, yeah, Thranduil resents the Dwarves for withholding the last physical memento of his wife (if this information turns out to be utterly correct, though, as the White Gems of Lasgalen seem to have been invented by PJ himself and not by Tolkien, and this is the explanation that's been making the rounds on the Internet; I don't know where are the original references), but from the looks of it, Thrór was the one who started it all with his megalomania.

Thranduil, OTOH, has no tiff against the Edain (the humans), the Hobbits or the Wizards (though he does describe them as an occasional nuisance, as they often come with trouble on their heels or just ready to conjure up some).
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2014-12-30 at 17:51.
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Old 2015-01-01, 19:12   Link #527
willx
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
Thranduil, OTOH, has no tiff against the Edain (the humans), the Hobbits or the Wizards (though he does describe them as an occasional nuisance, as they often come with trouble on their heels or just ready to conjure up some).
I meant his disdain for wood elves. Basically the movie painted him as a giant pr!ck the whole time and then he gets all kindly after Kili dies, but yes, I do get your other points -- curious whether people are going to try to do a Silmarillion movie (or series of movies) now..
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Old 2015-01-02, 09:10   Link #528
Renegade334
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I meant his disdain for wood elves. Basically the movie painted him as a giant pr!ck the whole time and then he gets all kindly after Kili dies, but yes, I do get your other points -- curious whether people are going to try to do a Silmarillion movie (or series of movies) now..
No info on that; maybe he just sees Tauriel as a commoner unfit for Legolas and her origins are merely another excuse for his disdain. Or maybe it had to do with the complex relationships between the different Elven people (those who stayed and those who left when the Valar issued their invitation to Aman) that dwelt in Middle-Earth when Beleriand still existed; many of these kingdoms were insular and wary of each other; some (especially those that belonged to the sons of Fëanor) even executed trespassers, regardless of whether they were Elven neighbors or not.

And Elves have long memories of those who wronged them or caused tragedies.

As for the Silmarillion, perish the thought: Christopher Tolkien will never allow another movie adaptation of his father's work. Despite the fact that both trilogies caused a resurgence in book sales, he's still sore about how the rights to LotR and the Hobbit were sold and how the stories were skewed. He won't sell the rights to the Silmarillion while he's still head of the Tolkien estate. His son is more open-minded, but CT practically marginalised him within the Tolkien trust a couple years back, in retaliation for lending his help to the LotR production crew.
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Old 2015-01-02, 10:56   Link #529
Ghiest Cid
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About sindar silvan relationship.
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post...wly-silvan-elf

Here is profile of thranduil and state how they merge with silvan.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thranduil


Here is appendix b of unfinished tales.
http://www.oocities.org/ulmo10/ut-cg-appendixb.html
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Old 2015-01-19, 04:02   Link #530
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I just want to report that, as a slowpoke, I just watched the third film a few hours ago.

My opinions:
1. This film was good. Worth seeing.
but
2. It is clear that in order to make this film, the previous film had to suffer by laying down the foundations but nothing else.

I didn't like the 2nd film very much, and almost didn't see the third. Now I see that film 2 and 3 together, was a MUCH better combo. All the extra bits in 2 that made no sense was neatly tied together in 3.

Peter Jackson messed up when he ended up with an unplanned trilogy. What he had was good as a whole, but film 2 ended up being weak because it had too much story elements that didn't go anywhere until the final film.

I think it would have been better if the dragon was slain in the 2nd film. But I guess they had no choice because they needed to lengthen the third movie somehow.

The actions were fine. The fighting was done well and much better than the goblin mine rubbish. The portrayal of the madness and Bilbo, and the Council, were well done.

All in all, I feel bad that many people might have been put off by the bad decisions in film 2. I went into film 3 with very low expectations, almost preparing to hate it. But I believe the third film is worthy of the LotR film legacy.

It is just a pity that the 2nd film just didn't have a payoff. The dragon battle and gold smelting was silly, I didn't feel anything then. The third film? I FEEL the heroism. Even the Scottish Dwarf, who had just shown up mid-film, I cared for. And the Elf Dwarf romance did have a point.

I went to the cinema waiting to be disappointed. I came back out very glad that I was wrong. The Hobbit was a fine trilogy... As long as film 2 and 3 are watched back-to-back.
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Old 2015-01-19, 22:39   Link #531
GDB
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Anyone check out the fan-made "Tolkien Edit" yet? They cut the three movies down to about four and a half hours and supposedly made it vastly closer to the original book.
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Old 2015-01-20, 00:54   Link #532
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Anyone check out the fan-made "Tolkien Edit" yet? They cut the three movies down to about four and a half hours and supposedly made it vastly closer to the original book.
I hear there is also an edited fan version of lotr trilogy.
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Old 2015-04-11, 02:22   Link #533
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Oh dear, oh my. I stumbled upon a few Hobbit clips on YouTube, one of which was of
Spoiler for :
Turns out that it was a good thing I didn't see this in theaters, since I was unable to stifle any laughter. Oh god, I know it was supposed to be emotional, but their faces! I'm a terrible person.

Sigh. So much for dying with his brother to, ya know, defend their homeland and uncle, 'cause, ya know, things like that totally aren't central to Tolkien's verse.

But, I shouldn't criticize what I haven't seen. I'm going to have to find time to watch the entire thing one day. It'll be entertaining once I shut off my inner critic.
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Old 2015-04-11, 10:21   Link #534
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Elves can die cause of grief. Lúthien is an example when Beren died.
I think "die from grief" is just a fancy metaphor the book uses for suicide or allowing themselves to die from starvation. Elves are immortal but not invincible, they can off themselves if they want to.
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Old 2015-04-11, 11:14   Link #535
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I thought it was because they 'faded'? I'm sure I remember Arwen living long past the age of Aragon and so on, and eventually fading away from sadness or something (I'd have to go read the Silmarillion again). But suicide would work too.
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Old 2015-04-11, 11:43   Link #536
Renegade334
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In the Silmarillion, Tolkien specifically states that
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"Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return."
So, yes, it is possible for Elves to actually die from grief, provided it is strong and debilitating enough. In Arwen's case, it is not stated how long she lived as she left the company of the mortals (thus no one chronicled the event), but rumor has it she went into seclusion in the now-abandoned Lothlórien and lived there, until one day, she laid herself down on a hill and at long last passed away, probably too tired to continue living in a gray, joyless world (the power of the rings no longer conceals the disheartening "decay" of Middle-Earth from the eyes of the Elves and thus this state of affairs aggrieves them far more than it does Men [cf. above quote], who do not fully live in complete communion with Nature, thus leading to an inevitable state of constant depression) where no white ship remains to bear her back to Aman, the land of everlasting bliss (and therefore a chance at healing). You can find the conclusion of that tale in the appendices of The Return of the King, not The Silmarillion.

Besides, Tolkien is not like one of the nameless authors of the Bible who replaced certain nouns and verbs with euphemisms (like how one prudish monk/scribes discreetly replaced the original Hebrew or Greek verb for "having carnal relations with (x)" with "to 'know' (x)"); he's rather straightforward and unambiguous (especially if the deaths mirror their Norse/Teutonic/Anglo-Saxon sources of inspiration) on this point, such as in the case of Nienor Níniel, who unknowingly married her lost brother Túrin Turambar (after both were separated during their childhood and reunited years later, unaware of each other's identity), and committed suicide when the dragon Glaurung, in an ultimate fit of spite (a "F-U" from beyond the grave, really), revealed her the truth. In those cases, Tolkien even describes how the suicide victims did the deed.
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