StarCraft 2

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Exactly why tempests will suck. Carriers rarely if ever had a problem against ground units because of vastly superior maneuverability. They were rather mobile for cap ships (as compared to the horrendously slow battlecruisers), and if you microed them, the range on the interceptor waves was so huge that you could basically keep away from even ranged goliaths if you played it right.

No...the way to get to the carriers was by air units, and now blizzard amplified that weakness to a sickening degree.

Unless the tempest costs half of that of the carrier, it probably will be a very worthless unit, especially if protoss have not gained the capabilities to repair their mechanical units.

Still, all it means is Tempests could no longer operate alone. And with the Mothership as the new ultimate weapon, Protoss Tempests would probably be easier to obtain than carriers were in SC1 by being slightly lower on the tech tree. Perhaps the point with the mothership's Timebomb ability is to shield Tempests against air attacks?

So basically Tempests are even weaker against air units than Carriers, but even stronger against ground units than Carriers. They would be harder to use, certainly, but I wouldn't call them useless. You would need a LOT more goliaths (or whatever the SC2 equivalent) to take one down.

EDIT: An example in SC2 I can compare to is the Siege tank; a unit that is only truly useful in siege mode, and can deal great damage, but if you are not careful a zealot bomb or zerglings can inflict massive casualties in a very short time. No one could claim siege tanks as being useless, could we?

[Demongod86]

Siege tanks would probably damn well be useless if they were as high on the tech tree as the carriers were, and if they cost as much.

And once again, Tempests are NOT ANY stronger against ground units than carriers were. Go back and watch the video posted in this thread, and watch the Tempest section of the video. Count how much damage the 20 damage missile turrets do to the tempest before it goes down. They spent around 320 damage on the shields, which I counted as 20-40-80-120-160-200-240-280-320 and then 160 on the actual hull of the tempest before it blew up right as that section ended.

Now watch the tempests in the twilight archon section of the clip. A tomato cannon instantly takes one down, meaning their actual HP, even after armor, is less than 260. Now another one gets taken down by bare battlecruiser lasers, no tomato cannons this time. It takes 6 shots. So at most, tempests have 0 armor and 204 HP on the hull (34x6=204), which is practically impossible given blizzard's love of multiples of 5, and that 8 missiles hit the tempest in the prior video before it blew up, meaning we're looking at a measly 160 HP before dying. How much armor does it have? Probably not too much.

Either way, it's a frail piece of junk. Against ground, it's got a total of 480 life compared to the carrier's 450. Against air, 160 compared to 450.

Pretty crappy tradeoff.

[gummybear]

I feel that shield > HP for protoss because shield can be regen, while hp you cause regen. I don't think it's completely defendless like you put it aginst air, I just think that it have a special shiel;d face towards the ground while it use normal shielding towards the sire. This is toss we are talking about, they will have shield no mattter what.

Also, solo unity will most likely be kill anyway in SC, it's a rule unless you have cloak. If you have it in a group of warp ray, I think it will be a very different story. the tempist can cover ground while warp ray covers the air. but that's only if you go pure air. I think the good old zealot + dragoon/immorals will still do very good in SC2

[WhiteWings]

Siege Tanks were one of the Terrans strongest assets as well as making things very interesting in the games. I'm not sure I'd want to see various changes to the Terran forces to make them even stronger or prefer to see the power of the Siege Tank to remain as they were in SCI.

I really hope there are more Protoss Units coming and that the old Carrier would be still around. Man I loved the swarms of interceptors attacking like pissed off hornets...

About the Zerglings.... It was hard enough dealing with a bunch a mass produced and cheap zerglings attacking en masse. Now they are going to be swarms of mobile bombs? Good for the Zerg players and too bad for the others. Even with whatever Protoss or Terran counters that would come up its going to be pain handling them even more so now. Anyway, personally, I felt the Zerg had too much of an advantage generally over the others. The Overlords alone seemed a bit too useful in that they were detectors, transports, and supply depots in a single basket.

I just hope the Terrans are a much useful bunch this time around. Those Battlecruisers are long due for some upgrades anyway.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by WhiteWings

About the Zerglings.... It was hard enough dealing with a bunch a mass produced and cheap zerglings attacking en masse. Now they are going to be swarms of mobile bombs? Good for the Zerg players and too bad for the others. Even with whatever Protoss or Terran counters that would come up its going to be pain handling them even more so now. Anyway, personally, I felt the Zerg had too much of an advantage generally over the others. The Overlords alone seemed a bit too useful in that they were detectors, transports, and supply depots in a single basket.

A single basket... that easily falls prey to Corsairs.
There is a reason why the most recent MSL grandfinal ended with a PvsP match. Before Boxer, Zerg resigned supreme. Boxer made Terran popular, and only recently did Protoss now make their move in professional gaming. It's all about inventing new strategies.

Just a reminder; swarms of Zerglings was only viable because they were cheap on both resources and also supply. Now, if morphing Banelings require precious gas and increase supply demands, like how Lurkers were made from Hydralisks, then practical uses of Banelings would be more limited.

[Demongod86]

Except corsairs are gone, replaced by the more micro-intensive phoenix..., but since overlords were classified as LARGE, somehow I have the sinking feeling that phoenixes will SUCK against them.

[WhiteWings]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

A single basket... that easily falls prey to Corsairs.
There is a reason why the most recent MSL grandfinal ended with a PvsP match. Before Boxer, Zerg resigned supreme. Boxer made Terran popular, and only recently did Protoss now make their move in professional gaming. It's all about inventing new strategies.

Just a reminder; swarms of Zerglings was only viable because they were cheap on both resources and also supply. Now, if morphing Banelings require precious gas and increase supply demands, like how Lurkers were made from Hydralisks, then practical uses of Banelings would be more limited.

True, true. And like everything else the very advantages can be the very vulnerabilities. But think of it this way. Though the advantages of the Overlord is really a double -edged sword the advantages are considerable. With a just a few upgrades the overlord can delpoy troops AND detect hidden enemies at the same time. That means despite having to pay more attention to the safety of the Overlords a player can afford concentrate their attention to other matters. It does matter in a game. I know.

Well, so far the Protoss units look great though I hope more changes and more updates to the current units as well as a few additions would be nice. But considering how the current Protoss units have seriously undermined the effectiveness of the Terran Siege Tank and the Marines (eg. Immortals special shields against the Siege Tanks and the Tempest carriers against the Marines for example) I can't wait to see what upgrades the Terrans will have.

[Clarste]

Stop whining about Tempests please. We'll see what they're like when the game becomes playable. And even if they're useless when a playable beta comes out, that doen't mean they'll stay useless. Judging them now is pointless. There is no amount of evidence that can be collected that would make judging them now meaningful, because the game isn't finalized yet. Remember, they're not just hiding the game from us, they're also in the process of making it. Things will change. The early demonstrations we've seen mean absolutely nothing about what we'll see in the end, especially concerning things as utterly and completely changeable as health and damage values.

What we do know is what Blizzard intends with the Tempests. They are meant to be an air to ground attacking specialist that is vulnerable to air attacks. Presumably will tweak them until they actually are.

PS: They sound a lot like what Guardians in SC1 are.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Oh, just for reference; it is now confirmed that Terrans have the following new units:

Viking: A vehicle that could transform from a goliath-shaped mech to an aircraft. Abilities unknown. (Very versatile, as one might imagine.)

Thor: A heavy-mech. Powerful, though not known how powerful exactly. It is NOT likely to be mothership-grade, as much as people might complain on the web.

Supply Depots: Can now retract underground to facilitate unit movements in the base, may be used as doors at a choke-point. Unknown if it would hinder supply while retracted.

Sensor Dome: New Terran building that could supposedly detect enemy units on the minimap. Not sure how it works.

Planetary Fortress: Upgrade available for the Terran Command Center, granting the CC defensive weapons. Power and range of weapon unknown.

EDIT: This just came in; Photon Cannons are now replaced by Phase Cannons. There will be no Photon Cannons in SCII, as such all Protoss defenses will be mobile.

[gummybear]

Planetary Fortress: Upgrade available for the Terran Command Center, granting the CC defensive weapons.

Thank God, now I can finally do something while I am falling back.

*crossing fingers for a upgrade for siege tanks firing nukes!

And I am not 100% sure but then I think I have figure out what TA can do; it can use the skills of the SC1 arbiter.

[wsheit]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Oh, just for reference; it is now confirmed that Terrans have the following new units:

Viking: A vehicle that could transform from a goliath-shaped mech to an aircraft. Abilities unknown. (Very versatile, as one might imagine.)

Thor: A heavy-mech. Powerful, though not known how powerful exactly. It is NOT likely to be mothership-grade, as much as people might complain on the web.

Supply Depots: Can now retract underground to facilitate unit movements in the base, may be used as doors at a choke-point. Unknown if it would hinder supply while retracted.

Sensor Dome: New Terran building that could supposedly detect enemy units on the minimap. Not sure how it works.

Planetary Fortress: Upgrade available for the Terran Command Center, granting the CC defensive weapons. Power and range of weapon unknown.

EDIT: This just came in; Photon Cannons are now replaced by Phase Cannons. There will be no Photon Cannons in SCII, as such all Protoss defenses will be mobile.

just out of curiosity, what's the source for this new info? - the official site hasn't been updated

[WhiteWings]

Real or not they sound pretty good. It's high time the Terrans got some a bit more decent weapons of war. Maybe Terrans units and buildings ought to have a self-destruct ability that could damage the enemies in desperate times though I won't think that will ever happen.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by wsheit

just out of curiosity, what's the source for this new info? - the official site hasn't been updated

The last bit of info came from a Blizzard employee (alias Karune) who periodically posts Q&A on the Battlenet forums. The others came from an European magazine, but has also been confirmed by the same employee (though as usual, subject to future changes.)

Often, the SCII website is the last to spill the beans...

[Oppius]

Blizzard returns after this game will join legendary Duke Nukem Forever.All I can say is Blizzard too busy handling World of Warcraft.

[gummybear]

Originally Posted by Amex_Yohko

Blizzard returns after this game will join legendary Duke Nukem Forever.All I can say is Blizzard too busy handling World of Warcraft.

... Kids, there is a lession here to be learn: Don't do crack.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Oh, just for reference; it is now confirmed that Terrans have the following new units:

Viking: A vehicle that could transform from a goliath-shaped mech to an aircraft. Abilities unknown. (Very versatile, as one might imagine.)

Thor: A heavy-mech. Powerful, though not known how powerful exactly. It is NOT likely to be mothership-grade, as much as people might complain on the web.

Supply Depots: Can now retract underground to facilitate unit movements in the base, may be used as doors at a choke-point. Unknown if it would hinder supply while retracted.

Sensor Dome: New Terran building that could supposedly detect enemy units on the minimap. Not sure how it works.

Planetary Fortress: Upgrade available for the Terran Command Center, granting the CC defensive weapons. Power and range of weapon unknown.

EDIT: This just came in; Photon Cannons are now replaced by Phase Cannons. There will be no Photon Cannons in SCII, as such all Protoss defenses will be mobile.

Terrans apparently now are going anime-style. Superjumping reapers, transformers, bigass mechs (read: gundams)...oh joy.

As ot the poster that mentioned tempests are like guardians:

That's the PROBLEM. Don't you get it? This is what's replacing the CARRIER. Carrier=>Guaridan=VERY VERY BAD.

[Child_of_Sierra]

So by "transform" the Viking could switch back and forth between each mode like the siege tank? Or is it like an upgrade that is a one time switch between being a land-type unit to an arial unit?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

So by "transform" the Viking could switch back and forth between each mode like the siege tank? Or is it like an upgrade that is a one time switch between being a land-type unit to an arial unit?

It should be both-ways. Otherwise there is no point.

Now, the question is if you can build it in a factory, or a starport...

Here is my Theorycraft:

You should be able to build the Viking in both buildings, in respective modes. But you wouldn't be able to research "transformation" until you have both buildings built. After research is done, you can use your factories to increase output of your airforce, or use your starports to supplement ground force production. This wouldn't be imbalanced, because it apears Viking is going to be the ultimate jack-of-all-trades. Mass starports would still be needed if you want BC, and Thor mechs would still need Mass Factories with add-on.

EDIT: Another thing that needs to keep in mind, is that Vikings would be VERY hard to upgrade for. We don't even know if its armour value will change from "ground armour" to "air armour" when transformed. Further, it would take ages to upgrade both Viking weapon modes, so a player might be inclinded to keep his Vikings in a particular mode while the other mode's upgrades catches up to a reasonable level.

[Demongod86]

Well, I think it will be built in the factory BUT would need its air mode researched at the starport, which has the factory for a PREREQUISITE.

[Justice Knight]

after watching the new video ,i have no idea wat does Twilight archon do.can any1 fill me in?