Dating

[UltimaWolf]

Well here is kind of a wierd and embarrassing question, but anyways, me and my girlfriend's 3 month anniversary just went by, now I haven't really had a long record with somone before (Sad I know), This is actually the longest, so I'm not really sure if I should be doing somthing or not for it. Anyways I did remember it and mention it to her, but the part that makes me feel bad is that she left me a nice letter on my dresser for me that night and I didn't really do anything for her and now that its kinda went by I feel it would kind of ruin the point of it if I tried to do somthing for her now. I did think about waiting a week or so and suprising her with somthing or if I should just wait till our next anniversary. I know this is a stupid problem, Sorry

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by UltimaWolf

Well here is kind of a wierd and embarrassing question, but anyways, me and my girlfriend's 3 month anniversary just went by, now I haven't really had a long record with somone before (Sad I know), This is actually the longest, so I'm not really sure if I should be doing somthing or not for it. Anyways I did remember it and mention it to her, but the part that makes me feel bad is that she left me a nice letter on my dresser for me that night and I didn't really do anything for her and now that its kinda went by I feel it would kind of ruin the point of it if I tried to do somthing for her now. I did think about waiting a week or so and suprising her with somthing or if I should just wait till our next anniversary. I know this is a stupid problem, Sorry

Warning, I am not qualified(never had intimate relationships) to answer such questions but what I do know is: "The earlier, the better", "Eat the ice cream before it melts", and that the real point of anniversaries is not to celebrate a mere passage of time but to celebrate and strengthen people's relationships---following this, make everyday an "anniversary" for her.

[Ascaloth]

Update on my situation;

Just got off a webcam MSN convo with her; it's the first time we tried a webcam convo. But again, conversation pretty much as usual about everyday stuff. No mention about the kiss, either.

So, is it time to hit any conclusions now, Ledgem? I'm actually thinking about stealing another one next time just to provoke something.

[Dakota]

^ Actually Ascaloth, don't do whatever the hell I did. Because she became a transman. But anyway.

You might be still on the boat. Act nonchalant and still let her start the MSN convos. And don't devote all your time to her and stuff. Have a life. It's hard, yes. Just let the tension grow and it'll eventually blow up in your face for better or for worse.

That is what I didn't do last time, and what I'm doing right now. It might be working out. I met this girl at college in the theater program, and we instantly became friends. I hid my feelings from her.

Over the summer I became a hermit of a sort (damn tarot card reading was right). I deleted my facebook (I suggest everyone to do this if it applies, it's eye-opening), and tried to remove my real identity from the internet in several ways. The important part is, she was also pretty much internet dead, which added to my interest in doing something similar, except probably more purposeful (and several other reasons). I could have texted her or called her at any time, but I held off.

Yesterday we had an AIM conversation until her laptop battery died. She needs to see me "ASAP." We're also living in the same building this year, myself on the third, she on the first.

This other girl I liked, well, I told her straight out that I liked her, and got turned down slowly and painfully. Turns out she's a fuckhead who had a boyfriend behind my back. So much for trying not to hurt my feelings. She texted me a week or so ago. I didn't answer.

tl;dr

IF YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT YOU WON'T SAY ANYTHING RETARDED ;D

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Dakota

^ Actually Ascaloth, don't do whatever the hell I did. Because she became a transman. But anyway.

You might be still on the boat. Act nonchalant and still let her start the MSN convos. And don't devote all your time to her and stuff. Have a life. It's hard, yes. Just let the tension grow and it'll eventually blow up in your face for better or for worse.

....

IF YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT YOU WON'T SAY ANYTHING RETARDED ;D

That's actually a good idea, and I'd probably go with this. The fact that the girl's Vietnamese (and therefore probably relatively conservative) still makes me think somehow that nothing will happen if I don't initiate them though. XD

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

That's actually a good idea, and I'd probably go with this. The fact that the girl's Vietnamese (and therefore probably relatively conservative) still makes me think somehow that nothing will happen if I don't initiate them though. XD

First off, a transman is a transgender going from female to male.

And I mean don't go out of your way to spend time with her, instead try to give reason for her to keep in touch with you.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Dakota

First off, a transman is a transgender going from female to male.

Okay. I think a WTF is in order now.

And I mean don't go out of your way to spend time with her, instead try to give reason for her to keep in touch with you.

Erm no, of course not. Not that this would be hard; she just keeps initiating conversations with me whether I do anything or not. :3

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Yeah, I guess you're right there. With this girl though, it's kind of hard not to think about how things might work out; like I mentioned earlier, she's from Vietnam, and apart from the language issues, what I know about her values sometimes makes me think she's, as I would put it, "a girl from the previous generation". Plus, there's always a possibility it'll become a long-distance relationship, and we all know how tricky those are. Moreover, I've been holding an attitude for a long time, even now, that it's best if I lived my whole life alone, due to....personal experiences with my family medical history. So to have actually done what I did....

I dunno. I was worried if I hurt her, but I'm less so about that at this point. So I guess in short, I'm fully prepared to fail....but I wouldn't know what to do if I somehow succeeded. And yet I still stole that kiss anyway.

There are two opposite ways to live life. The first is to be very calculating, and take your risks accordingly. The second is to jump right in and not think too much about what might happen as a result. I belong to the former category, but am trying to break out of it. The most successful people in life tend to belong to the latter category (although I'm sure there are countless more failures - but of course, you won't hear about them as much). Unless you're a totally reckless guy, I don't think you can go wrong by trying to stop calculating even just a bit.

What I mean is, you've calculated the odds. Long distance relationship, possible cultural and language barriers, possible value barriers, possible medical condition taking you away from her early... but let me ask you, is there anything wrong with just living for the moment at this time? Maybe a distance issue will come up; yes, it'll likely be painful, it might lead to a break up. Maybe the differences in culture and values will be too great and will lead to a breakup. Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe the relationship will be strong enough that you both find a way to be together regardless of where the other goes. Maybe it'll be strong enough that you both change for each other and redefine your values based on the other. Or perhaps it'll be a combination of the two - it'll be the best, most loving time of your life, but it'll end in a breakup. That's also a possibility.

But those are just calculations on my end, meant to tip the balance. It's really a philosophical question, when it comes down to it. Would you rather live to regret having done something, or would you rather regret not having taken action? To not have done something and to regret it - that's one of the most frustrating experiences. But that's also just my opinion.

Relevant XKCD comic:


My advice is to take it one step at a time. Even if you decide that the potential gains are worth it and set out to form a relationship, you might still get shot down. There are no guarantees. If you find someone you're interested in then, whether you know she's your goddess of perfection or not, it's up to you to act on it, make it happen, and maintain it. I've said it before: relationships aren't easy. They're a lot of work. It's just that, in a healthy relationship, you won't feel like you're putting in much work at all because you'll be getting a lot out of it.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Haha, that might be harder then it sounds. Like I mentioned, she's a girl from "the previous generation"; that is, she's like a girl from my parents' generation in all but actual years i.e. conservative by today's standards. What kind of body language can I reasonably expect from her? For all I know (and I have been working on this assumption all this time), I would have to be the one taking the initiative if I'm serious about getting anywhere with her.

But yeah, I'll see how it goes. I'll keep you guys posted.

Hah, what body language are you expecting?

My fiancee is arguably conservative. The way she showed me that she was interested in me was by sitting next to me in class regularly, and occasionally leaving me messages on FaceBook, unprompted. Granted, I was pretty dense at the time and didn't think anything of it; my sister noted that she seemed to have an interest in me, and pointed it out, and things went from there.

Which isn't to say that you should start looking for signs and really straining to think of how her actions could be signs of attraction toward you, but... keep your eyes open. If she changes her regular activity toward you at all, it could mean something. It could be good or bad, but it'd be something, potentially.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I just met her on campus today, we were each going to our respective classes, and we stopped at the canteen for a drink. And....the conversation pretty much mirrored the MSN one last night.

It doesn't mean anything. Conservative girls are some of the hardest nuts to crack because unlike the highly outgoing and liberal girls, they won't drop obvious hints or act seductive around you. (First girl I dated gave me her phone number the day I met her - I still didn't get the hint that she had an interest in me just from that, but that's a cliche expression of interest and not something you should expect from a conservative girl. Of course, you're friends with her and already have her number, I presume, so you wouldn't be able to get that anyway )

Honestly, despite the fact that you've provided logical arguments for why you shouldn't enter into a relationship with her, it sounds like you want to. So spice it up and provoke something - she may not want your advances (in which case you'll find out), but even if she does want your advances, she's probably not going to make things any easier on you. Not until she formally accepts you, anyway.

I don't have any advice for what you should do to set off another spark. If I knew you and her a little better I could probably think of something, but what ever I or anyone here would say, do what you think is best.

Good luck, and I'm looking forward to hearing about how it goes.

Originally Posted by Miko Miko

OMG Thanks guys, I know exactly what to do!
Omg.. I am definately going to talk to Alex tell him what I feel.

Congratulations! Telling another person how you truly feel can be very difficult, even if you're both deeply in love. Yet it's an essential part of maintaining a relationship. If you can be up-front with Alex, someone you're not madly in love with, then I think you'll be able to maintain future relationships very well. (Just make sure that whoever you're in a relationship with is also willing to share their true feelings, even if you have to prod them a little to get them out.)

Originally Posted by UltimaWolf

Well here is kind of a wierd and embarrassing question, but anyways, me and my girlfriend's 3 month anniversary just went by, now I haven't really had a long record with somone before (Sad I know), This is actually the longest, so I'm not really sure if I should be doing somthing or not for it. Anyways I did remember it and mention it to her, but the part that makes me feel bad is that she left me a nice letter on my dresser for me that night and I didn't really do anything for her and now that its kinda went by I feel it would kind of ruin the point of it if I tried to do somthing for her now. I did think about waiting a week or so and suprising her with somthing or if I should just wait till our next anniversary. I know this is a stupid problem, Sorry

Not a stupid problem at all, and congratulations on making it to the three-month mark.

Here's my take on it: don't worry too much about the formalities of what you should and shouldn't be doing. Take your cues from your girlfriend, and also be charming on your own. My fiancee and I only ever celebrated our yearly anniversaries (and birthdays... and now we also celebrate our engagement day... and then we're going to celebrate our wedding anniversary... oy, these dates pile up, soon I'll have one for every month). Yet occasionally I'll still go out of my way to do something special for her, somewhat spontaneously. It's important to do things like that, just to keep the relationship a bit fresh and to remind the other person that you're not taking them for granted (which is easy to do).

In other words, if the three-month anniversary was a big deal to you, then regardless of what social customs dictate and regardless of whether she thought that three months was a big deal, then you should have acted on it. You're not in trouble for not having done so, but the point is that it's your relationship, and you should feel free to do as you wish (all while respecting your girlfriend's wishes, of course). My opinion and the opinion of everyone else here is meaningless compared to you and her.

Honestly, you could make a big deal out of every single month's anniversary if you really wanted to. If your girlfriend would find it annoying, then don't, but if you're not sure if she'd be annoyed or not, then go ahead and do it anyway. Don't be afraid to show her that you care about her, value your relationship with her, and are excited about being with her. I'm quite certain that nearly everyone wants to know that they're loved and cherished - and who better to be loved and cherished by than by the person you love and cherish the most, as well?

(There'll always be exceptional cases to what I wrote above, but in general, don't be afraid to show affection, to communicate openly, to be yourself, and to make the relationship something unique. Each relationship is different, so why should they conform to the expectations of outsiders?)

Originally Posted by Dakota

tl;dr

IF YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT YOU WON'T SAY ANYTHING RETARDED ;D

If you keep your mouth shut you also won't initiate anything. If you're a really attractive guy and/or are around desperate girls, that's the only exception. Otherwise, you'll likely find that the girl (or guy) you were interested in slips away from you or is taken by someone else, purely due to your inaction.

Relationships are risks. When they fail, it can be painful. If you don't want to take the risk, don't. If you're in for the risk, then be in it to win it and don't hold back.

[UltimaWolf]

Thank you both for the advice. I'm going to try somthing tomorrow. Oh and thanks Ledgem about the 'Don't worry about what others think or what the normal is' I think that was one of my problems, I kept thinking about what everyone else does and not what I wanted or not wanted to do, so thanks.

[Olaguer]

Mmm. I could learn much by reading this thread. I'll keep on reading then. (Never dated a girl in my whole life. Age:19 Status : Virgin)

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

There are two opposite ways to live life. The first is to be very calculating, and take your risks accordingly. The second is to jump right in and not think too much about what might happen as a result. I belong to the former category, but am trying to break out of it. The most successful people in life tend to belong to the latter category (although I'm sure there are countless more failures - but of course, you won't hear about them as much). Unless you're a totally reckless guy, I don't think you can go wrong by trying to stop calculating even just a bit.

What I mean is, you've calculated the odds. Long distance relationship, possible cultural and language barriers, possible value barriers, possible medical condition taking you away from her early... but let me ask you, is there anything wrong with just living for the moment at this time? Maybe a distance issue will come up; yes, it'll likely be painful, it might lead to a break up. Maybe the differences in culture and values will be too great and will lead to a breakup. Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe the relationship will be strong enough that you both find a way to be together regardless of where the other goes. Maybe it'll be strong enough that you both change for each other and redefine your values based on the other. Or perhaps it'll be a combination of the two - it'll be the best, most loving time of your life, but it'll end in a breakup. That's also a possibility.

But those are just calculations on my end, meant to tip the balance. It's really a philosophical question, when it comes down to it. Would you rather live to regret having done something, or would you rather regret not having taken action? To not have done something and to regret it - that's one of the most frustrating experiences. But that's also just my opinion.

Relevant XKCD comic:


My advice is to take it one step at a time. Even if you decide that the potential gains are worth it and set out to form a relationship, you might still get shot down. There are no guarantees. If you find someone you're interested in then, whether you know she's your goddess of perfection or not, it's up to you to act on it, make it happen, and maintain it. I've said it before: relationships aren't easy. They're a lot of work. It's just that, in a healthy relationship, you won't feel like you're putting in much work at all because you'll be getting a lot out of it.

You know....that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, just on a personal level, there's certainly been more times when I wish "I had" than when I wish "I hadn't". Now is as good a time as any to make a change to that ratio for the better.

Everyone I asked (you included) says I should go for it, so....yeah. I'll look out a good time to try something again.

Hah, what body language are you expecting?

My fiancee is arguably conservative. The way she showed me that she was interested in me was by sitting next to me in class regularly, and occasionally leaving me messages on FaceBook, unprompted. Granted, I was pretty dense at the time and didn't think anything of it; my sister noted that she seemed to have an interest in me, and pointed it out, and things went from there.

Which isn't to say that you should start looking for signs and really straining to think of how her actions could be signs of attraction toward you, but... keep your eyes open. If she changes her regular activity toward you at all, it could mean something. It could be good or bad, but it'd be something, potentially.

I dunno actually. I recently had a friend told me about how a girl who was interested in him dropped hints like seeking him out for conversation and touching him more often. With this girl however, she's always been the one seeking me out for conversation, and for the latter, I frankly don't expect that out of her. I'd probably freak if she actually does that.

So I have no clue.

It doesn't mean anything. Conservative girls are some of the hardest nuts to crack because unlike the highly outgoing and liberal girls, they won't drop obvious hints or act seductive around you. (First girl I dated gave me her phone number the day I met her - I still didn't get the hint that she had an interest in me just from that, but that's a cliche expression of interest and not something you should expect from a conservative girl. Of course, you're friends with her and already have her number, I presume, so you wouldn't be able to get that anyway )

Honestly, despite the fact that you've provided logical arguments for why you shouldn't enter into a relationship with her, it sounds like you want to. So spice it up and provoke something - she may not want your advances (in which case you'll find out), but even if she does want your advances, she's probably not going to make things any easier on you. Not until she formally accepts you, anyway.

I don't have any advice for what you should do to set off another spark. If I knew you and her a little better I could probably think of something, but what ever I or anyone here would say, do what you think is best.

Good luck, and I'm looking forward to hearing about how it goes.

Thanks, I'll probably do like I mentioned previously; steal another kiss and make it last this time, when the time is right. I'll see how it goes and keep you guys posted.

EDIT: Just a thought though. Since both she and I have been avoiding talking about that kiss so far, should I bring it up at some point, or just leave it be?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Olaguer

Mmm. I could learn much by reading this thread. I'll keep on reading then. (Never dated a girl in my whole life. Age:19 Status : Virgin)

I didn't date until I was 19 (and even then, about a month away from turning 20). I also had a foolish (in hindsight) notion that if I didn't date before I turned 20, I'd probably never date in my life. Some people date much earlier, some people date much later. Don't be too concerned about it, unless you're into a "quantity over quality" for your relationships

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I dunno actually. I recently had a friend told me about how a girl who was interested in him dropped hints like seeking him out for conversation and touching him more often. With this girl however, she's always been the one seeking me out for conversation, and for the latter, I frankly don't expect that out of her. I'd probably freak if she actually does that.

So I have no clue.

Just as you and I would approach a girl differently, so too are all girls different in how they'll drop hints. Some girls drop extremely subtle hints that'd probably even give the FBI a hard time to figure out, and heck, others may not even drop hints at all. Unless you have reason to believe that you've done something wrong or that she won't communicate a negative to you, then it's fair game until she tells you that she's not interested.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Thanks, I'll probably do like I mentioned previously; steal another kiss and make it last this time, when the time is right. I'll see how it goes and keep you guys posted.

EDIT: Just a thought though. Since both she and I have been avoiding talking about that kiss so far, should I bring it up at some point, or just leave it be?

This is the part where you should do what you feel you're capable of and what feels right to you.

But since I'm feeling chatty, I'll give you my take on it anyway. I'm hesitant about the idea of a second kiss, because it's been done before. (On the other hand, since it's been done before it may be a stronger thing to do.) My personal strength is in talking and overcoming that knot in my stomach in order to say even potentially embarrassing things from the heart, so I'd try to find the right moment to formally ask her out. That brings up a host of other complications for us calculating types, though, because there are a million combinations for that - where do I go to say it? When? How do I say it, and with what words? And so on... I literally spent an entire day, starting around 9:30 AM and ending around 10 PM, studying and doing other activities with my now-fiancee, and the entire day I was calculating just that. It wasn't until we were about to part ways for the day that I was forced to make my move. (To my credit, my fiancee unknowingly thwarted nearly all my planning efforts - so it wasn't that I took so long on my own.)

Some girls freak out if you get so serious on them and talk about that sort of stuff. (With regard to the kiss, that'd be something akin to asking "I was wondering, about that time I kissed you... how did you feel about it?") Others don't like it because they want you to go through the whole ritual of asking them out or charming them. It's nearly impossible to know ahead of time. This is also partly why I said that you should do what you can do, want to do, and what you feel is right. You know this girl better than any of us here, and you also know yourself better than we do. Anything that would be way too uncharacteristic of you might make her feel uneasy... that sort of thing.

So for talking about the kiss... hard to say, because it depends on her. I mean, saying something like "you know, your cheek was really soft - would it be OK if I kissed you again some time?" (said in a semi-joking manner) might tickle her on the inside if she wants you to make further advances and liked that first kiss, but it might just come off as creepy and/or a nuisance if she really didn't like it. But you can't worry too much about that, because otherwise it'll prevent you from making any moves at all.

Either way, with your next advance - unless she's really dense and/or thinks you're just joking - you'll probably find out whether she wants you to continue or to stop.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Just as you and I would approach a girl differently, so too are all girls different in how they'll drop hints. Some girls drop extremely subtle hints that'd probably even give the FBI a hard time to figure out, and heck, others may not even drop hints at all. Unless you have reason to believe that you've done something wrong or that she won't communicate a negative to you, then it's fair game until she tells you that she's not interested.

Actually, aye....one of the girl's biggest weakness in her personality is that she's not very good at saying "no".

But otherwise, I can actually think of no reason that I did anything wrong if her still-talking-to-me-on-her-own-initiative is any indication. I did make some advances more than a year ago and got rejected....because that was the time when she told me about her now ex-bf.

But now that she's available, I can't really think of anything apart from her inability to say "no"....which means if she's not interested, I'll have to find out the hard way, I guess.

This is the part where you should do what you feel you're capable of and what feels right to you.

But since I'm feeling chatty, I'll give you my take on it anyway. I'm hesitant about the idea of a second kiss, because it's been done before. (On the other hand, since it's been done before it may be a stronger thing to do.) My personal strength is in talking and overcoming that knot in my stomach in order to say even potentially embarrassing things from the heart, so I'd try to find the right moment to formally ask her out. That brings up a host of other complications for us calculating types, though, because there are a million combinations for that - where do I go to say it? When? How do I say it, and with what words? And so on... I literally spent an entire day, starting around 9:30 AM and ending around 10 PM, studying and doing other activities with my now-fiancee, and the entire day I was calculating just that. It wasn't until we were about to part ways for the day that I was forced to make my move. (To my credit, my fiancee unknowingly thwarted nearly all my planning efforts - so it wasn't that I took so long on my own.)

Oh, hell yeah....I can relate. Not so long ago I was obsessed with possible plans whenever it comes to going out on dates with her. Where to go, what to do etc.

Some girls freak out if you get so serious on them and talk about that sort of stuff. (With regard to the kiss, that'd be something akin to asking "I was wondering, about that time I kissed you... how did you feel about it?") Others don't like it because they want you to go through the whole ritual of asking them out or charming them. It's nearly impossible to know ahead of time. This is also partly why I said that you should do what you can do, want to do, and what you feel is right. You know this girl better than any of us here, and you also know yourself better than we do. Anything that would be way too uncharacteristic of you might make her feel uneasy... that sort of thing.

So for talking about the kiss... hard to say, because it depends on her. I mean, saying something like "you know, your cheek was really soft - would it be OK if I kissed you again some time?" (said in a semi-joking manner) might tickle her on the inside if she wants you to make further advances and liked that first kiss, but it might just come off as creepy and/or a nuisance if she really didn't like it. But you can't worry too much about that, because otherwise it'll prevent you from making any moves at all.

Either way, with your next advance - unless she's really dense and/or thinks you're just joking - you'll probably find out whether she wants you to continue or to stop.

Alright then. I won't bring up the first time to her, but I'll try for another one when it feels right. Thanks for everything, you've been a great help. I'll keep you posted.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If you keep your mouth shut you also won't initiate anything. If you're a really attractive guy and/or are around desperate girls, that's the only exception. Otherwise, you'll likely find that the girl (or guy) you were interested in slips away from you or is taken by someone else, purely due to your inaction.

Relationships are risks. When they fail, it can be painful. If you don't want to take the risk, don't. If you're in for the risk, then be in it to win it and don't hold back.

See, I kinda disagree with this. Going up to a girl (in my experience) and confessing feelings or whatever is the biggest risk you can take. I think one needs to slowly make assurance that she is interested in you before taking action.

In my most recent heartbreak, the girl of interest always wanted to hang out with me. We liked to exchange ideas, and I was really convinced that she was into me, so I let the feelings fester. Now, the biggest mistake: I told her friends (also girls). I was pretty hammered drunk that cold night in March, and it just kind of came out. This could have been easily avoided if I just kept my mouth shut. Girls talk about everything and anything (even if they say they'll keep it a secret, that's a fucking lie they loooove gossip), and they have way too much attention to detail, so you need to be the same way, except in a more defensive manner.

Now I'll rant some more, you don't need to bother reading below here.

Second mistake: girl of interest was very indecisive. Regardless of who you have a crush on STAY AWAY from these kind of girls. They will fuck your boyish heart (whether they realize it or not) until you start crying in bed.

Third mistake: girl of interest would disappear suddenly without a word when we were hanging out with the rest of the crew! That means she has her hand in someone else's pants. If you're hanging out with girl of interest with the rest of your crew, and she's always texting someone and trying to be discrete, yeah, she's probably has her hand in someone else's pants.

tl;dr

I stand by my point (with variation): keep your mouth shut. Until you know fo' sho.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Alright then. I won't bring up the first time to her, but I'll try for another one when it feels right. Thanks for everything, you've been a great help. I'll keep you posted.

You should only be thanking me once you're successfully with her ;P But honestly, good luck, go out there and do what you feel is right. For better or for worse, many years down the road you'll probably look back on it fondly.

Originally Posted by Dakota

See, I kinda disagree with this. Going up to a girl (in my experience) and confessing feelings or whatever is the biggest risk you can take. I think one needs to slowly make assurance that she is interested in you before taking action.

In my most recent heartbreak, the girl of interest always wanted to hang out with me. We liked to exchange ideas, and I was really convinced that she was into me, so I let the feelings fester. Now, the biggest mistake: I told her friends (also girls). I was pretty hammered drunk that cold night in March, and it just kind of came out. This could have been easily avoided if I just kept my mouth shut. Girls talk about everything and anything (even if they say they'll keep it a secret, that's a fucking lie they loooove gossip), and they have way too much attention to detail, so you need to be the same way, except in a more defensive manner.

There's no "one size fits all" when it comes to people and relationships, but... aside from telling her friends, did you ever tell her directly? Again it depends on the people involved, but two things (and plenty more, I'm sure) can go wrong by telling her friends before her:
1) The friends can put a negative spin on it. Even if the girl of your dreams would have appreciated what you had to say, if the friends are making fun of it or mimicking it in an unflattering manner, there's a good chance that it'll be over.

2) Some girls hate "girl behavior" (or so they claim). They hate it when people aren't direct and say things through hints or other people. They'll still engage in that sort of behavior themselves even if they claim that they hate it, I've found, but they're still put off by it.

Even then, telling the person directly doesn't mean you tell them that you can't get them off your mind, that they're the most beautiful girl you've ever seen in the whole world, you want to spend the rest of your life with them... I'm sure there are some girls out there who would love to hear that, but I'd imagine that they're very few. More likely they'd be flattered, but a bit creeped out. Which leads into your next statement:

Originally Posted by Dakota

I stand by my point (with variation): keep your mouth shut. Until you know fo' sho.

Keep the emotional confessions and diabetes-inducingly-sweet words to yourself until you've established a solid relationship and/or get cues from your date that s/he wants to hear them, I'd agree. They're a bit over the top otherwise and have the potential to scare people off.

However, if it's a matter of just expressing interest and putting yourself out there, then I disagree. The girl (or boy) may like you, but think that you don't like them, and they may not make a move themselves. Or they may not particularly like you, but they'll give you a chance and then discover that love grows. If you don't take the initiative (and this goes quadruple for males, just because the expectation of gender roles still exists for the vast majority of people) then you'll likely miss a lot of opportunities, and suffer a lot of frustration.

It sucks to take the initiative partly because of the points you raised. It's a risk. Until the other person confesses their feelings/interest for you, you really don't know for certain that they're into you. Yet if they've already confessed, then they took the initiative. And again, due to gender role expectations, that's going to be a damn rare thing to occur if you're a guy. So they haven't confessed, and meanwhile you're becoming delusional, fantasizing about being with them, convincing yourself that they really are into you, then doubling back and considering their actions and how they may not be - you get caught up in your head and you don't go anywhere. If anything, during this time you're sending off some weird signals to the person you're obsessing over. It doesn't get you anywhere.

I went to a university where the Greek system (fraternities and sororities) was pretty big. I never got into that sort of stuff, but the majority of the people in those systems fit the stereotypes like a glove. I was keen on observing those interactions. Do you know what the difference is between the stereotypical frat boy, and people like us? (And by "people like us" I mean those of us who think too much about these things, calculate how to do everything, try to determine when the odds are in our favor, and often wish that the girl would take the initiative for us.) The difference, for the most part, is that they spend less time in their head and more time interacting with the girl. They don't necessarily go right up and hit on her (although that happens too), but they get into her life and try to charm her, expressing heavy interest. And if they get rejected (and I'm sure they do quite a bit), they can just laugh it off and move on.

The main point is, don't overthink it, and don't sit around waiting for someone to confess for you. Whether you're a guy or a girl, there are things you can do to at least show that you're interested. It just so happens that guys are traditionally expected to take it a step farther. It's not a comfortable thing to do and nobody likes to be rejected, but again, that's the risk you take.

Now, if you were getting in with a girl and she used you/double-timed you, that's a bit different...

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

2) Some girls hate "girl behavior" (or so they claim). They hate it when people aren't direct and say things through hints or other people. They'll still engage in that sort of behavior themselves even if they claim that they hate it, I've found, but they're still put off by it.

All girls who say they hate girl behavior is also a fucking lie, because that is girl behavior. They feed off of emotion.

As for the other stuff about gender roles and frats and stuff, quite frankly, cool story, bro. It's nothing new. We are obviously calculating and overthinking it, and is probably the biggest reason why nerds fit into the stereotype of never getting ass. This thread is basically the lovechild of this stereotype.

My last girlfriend (about 18 moons ago) worked out nicely because neither one of us took the initiative (I let it fester for a bit), and there was a big fat mutual feeling. I, of course, asked her out, because I knew the mutual feelings were there, expected gender roles, blah blah blah. Within four months she dumped me 'cos she found out I was smoking pot before we dated. It was a good relationship besides my so-called "lie." (I quit AS SOON as I started dating her, and, well, that went down the drain. Then I started again. >_>)

Point being, a strong relationship can come out of mutual feelings without confessing or taking the initiative. Both genders desire for the opposite to take action. Fuck this, molotov fucking everything.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Now, if you were getting in with a girl and she used you/double-timed you, that's a bit different...

Yeah, that most recent girl of interest in my last post double-timed my ass faster than a McDonald's Big Mac.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All girls who say they hate girl behavior is also a fucking lie, because that is girl behavior. They feed off of emotion.

As for the other stuff about gender roles and frats and stuff, quite frankly, cool story, bro. It's nothing new. We are obviously calculating and overthinking it, and is probably the biggest reason why nerds fit into the stereotype of never getting ass. This thread is basically the lovechild of this stereotype.

My last girlfriend (about 18 moons ago) worked out nicely because neither one of us took the initiative (I let it fester for a bit), and there was a big fat mutual feeling. I, of course, asked her out, because I knew the mutual feelings were there, expected gender roles, blah blah blah. Within four months she dumped me 'cos she found out I was smoking pot before we dated. It was a good relationship besides my so-called "lie." (I quit AS SOON as I started dating her, and, well, that went down the drain. Then I started again. >_>)

Point being, a strong relationship can come out of mutual feelings without confessing or taking the initiative. Both genders desire for the opposite to take action.

I....don't quite follow your logic there.

Yeah, that most recent girl of interest in my last post double-timed my ass faster than a McDonald's Big Mac.

Erm, hold on. Did you actually ask her out personally in the first place? From what I've seen of your post, you only confessed to her friends, not she herself. Were you officially in a relationship with her in the first place? If not, I'm not sure that counts as a double-time.

[Dakota]

Dammit, every time I post I shoot myself in the foot. Fuck the majority of that last post. Don't even analyze it.

To clear up confusion, there's two different girl-storylines here. I didn't go out with this girl, but she leaded me on, I count that as double timing. Forget about everything else.

I'll stick to what I've said earlier and shut the fuck up now.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All girls who say they hate girl behavior is also a fucking lie, because that is girl behavior. They feed off of emotion.

Feeling the love here, feeling the love *laughs*
I'd love to meet you just to disappoint you in that sense and break your set perception on numerous bad experciences.
I am sorry that you've had a hard time and your mindset is so angry/hurt, but you're dealing with humans, rather than just 'girls'
We come in a spectrum, and rather than cursing us all, take some time to analyse yourself, what you did and think
'ok... aside from not wanting to confess anymore, why did this girl leave me, what was her excuse'

Ask and consult some females and we'll try to break it down, but you gonna face it calmly rather than purely rant, otherwise we can't help ya or see where you're really coming from
Even with the advice you're giving, I'm seeing waves of red about, so as much as you're trying to be straight and helpful, all I see is
'yeesh, angry, bitter guy, no thanks'
Gives off bad vibes...

As for the other stuff about gender roles and frats and stuff, quite frankly, cool story, bro. It's nothing new. We are obviously calculating and overthinking it, and is probably the biggest reason why nerds fit into the stereotype of never getting ass. This thread is basically the lovechild of this stereotype.

Again, there's a wide spectrum of people on this website. You can use stereotypes so highlight a possible majority, but don't make judgements on them.

[Timdog]

So the comments of not dating until later made me realize something that's always been bugging me: I'm 19 (2 months till 20) and I've never even kissed a girl. I've never been on a date, I asked a girl out once (rejected obviously). The farthest I ever went with a girl was I went to prom with a friend but obviously nothing happened because we were just friends. I get friend-zoned all the time.

I really don't know what to do and this really bugs me especially when all my friends talk about their first kiss at 12 or even earlier and I just have to keep an awkward silence.

I don't even know where to begin with things. I make friends very easily, but I've never been able to get anywhere beyond that.

I think part of my problem is I'm short and have an ultra baby face. I look like I'm 15/16 not 19 and as such, people treat me that way (even call me a baby sometimes).

I know not to ask friends out since that will only ruin the friendship. Problem also is that most girls just want random hookups and hardly any are looking for long term stuff. And the only thing they seem to care about is how hot a guy is. I'm not ugly or anything but not above average either. And it's not like my standards are really high.

I just really don't know what to do.