[Manga] Chapter 345 Discussion

[Luminion Lancer]

-Heh just like I thought. No matter how many badass moments Sasuke receives from his creator Itachi is always there to make them seem miniature in comparison. You know, you really got to admire the guy. He masters the Sharingan at the age of 6, becomes an ANBU captain a few years later, and then spontaneously butchers his entire clan except for one. And this is before he became a matured teenager.

[DrunkManCrying]

Well... to be fair it was actually "really important" that he slaughtered all the members (except Sasuke afawk) of the clan.

Still waiting for the reason behind the slaughter...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well with the last released pics all I can say is : so much for what made Itachi superior to Oro was the MS

That picture also proved that Itachi may not be superior to Oro at all. Oro was caught off guard, at that time, that's all. He was not in a fighting mode, and no fighting took place.

Also, currently, I am glad that Oro improved himself compared to that time (in terms of being more ready), and stopped Sasuke's initial binding attempt.

Originally Posted by Hunter

But basically while many people theorized that Itachi's Amaterasu was responsible for Oro's severed hand, he actually did that... with a kunai.

Now that you told it, I just found the kunai. Since it was different than a normal kunai, it can be easily missed. I wonder, if the color is the only thing different about that kunai (i.e., maybe it has something similar to Asuma's knife).

[Ori]

I think Oro was attacking Itachi mentally though. Or else, Itachi wouldn't suddenly counterattack.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by astayanax

I personally think Sasuke's body will be controlled by both Orochimaru and Sasuke for awhile. Either or would be too dull.

Since the other people's spirits seem to currently live there, most probably in hibernating mode, if the jutsu succeeds, Sasuke has to live together with those as long as he shares his body with Oro. So, regardless of who owns the body, it is possible that the owner can change from time to time; if Oro cannot put Sasuke to sleep, then they have to both stay awake.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

That picture also proved that Itachi may not be superior to Oro at all. Oro was caught off guard, at that time, that's all. He was not in a fighting mode, and no fighting took place.

Also, currently, I am glad that Oro improved himself compared to that time (in terms of being more ready), and stopped Sasuke's initial binding attempt.

Now that you told it, I just found the kunai. Since it was different than a normal kunai, it can be easily missed. I wonder, if the color is the only thing different about that kunai (i.e., maybe it has something similar to Asuma's knife).

I thought it was more like Itachi anticipated Oro's intentions then struck first by binding him with genjutsu and severing his hand. I think this does prove Itachi's superiority or at least the strength of his genjutsu. Not even Oro could dispel it. He was literally at Itachi's mercy. And there doesn't seem to be anything abnormal about his kunai either, aren't kunai normally black?

The fact that the souls are merely sleeping in that place inside Oro's consciousness(?) is interesting. What happens if Oro is defeated and "killed" inside this place? Does that mean his soul is destroyed and that all the other souls are released?

Another question that bugs me is what happened immediately after Itachi severed Oro's hand. Did they fight? Did Oro run? Did Itachi simply leave? Akward silence? Oro's been sliced to pieces before, seems like losing a hand shouldn't have caused to be unable to fight, but he might've realized from just the genjutsu that Itachi was simply too much for him. Why Itachi didn't kill him is anybody's guess, maybe because Oro was still in Akatsuki at the time.

[xPresagio]

Actually, what those pictures prove is that the edge from Itachi over Oro was the Sharingan (special dojutsu), not physical/nin/taijutsu prowess.


Which is what most of us expected (MS or not).

Apparently, Oro tried a mental attack but got binded on that "world". How his hand was cut is irrelevant, since he was immobile there.

Which if you think about it, makes even worst the fact that Kurenai -a Genjutsu master- was casted (almost artificially) aside. She should have been strong enough to defeat a good deal of the Akatsuki members in 1-1 fights.

Also, such scene almost gives away the result of the battle with Sasuke:
Oro was already aware of such binding technique. And has been for several years. Are we supposed to believe that he didn't develop a counter, specially since it didn't derive from Tsukiyomi?

What baffles me, is that Kabuto was used to "explain" Oro's situation regarding the urgency to change bodies, instead of something else. How the hell couldn't he heard the screams and the rockus from a full fledged snake stomping the room around?

Note: The pic of the kunai, is shown later than the other ones, I just put it there as a dirty copy/paste.
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Edit for script of the 3 pages shown (changed to a summary)

Spoiler:

Page 1:

Sasuke is in a dark place, with a floor made of snakes.
Oro's rise from below, stating that it's a a space inside him, and is where the possesion ritual will occur.

Page 2:
Several snakes start to cover Sasuke. Around, there are two corpses of Oro's previous containers (the girl and the guy that won the free-for-all battle)
Oro suddenly stops, seen as his body is pierced by stones. He then realize that's the same binding genjutsu that Itachi used to prevent the possesion.

The scene changes to the past, where Itachi stands in some long stone stairs, with his 3-dotted Sharingan active. Oro is a few steps below.
Oro suddenly is pierced with the same stones. A blood splash later, his hand falls in the floor. Oro returns to reality.

Page 3:
Itachi remarks that his eyes render those kind of techniques (mental ones) useless, while holding the kunai used in the slash.
Scene returns to the present, where Sasuke is almost fully covered with snakes while Oro (still under the binding/piecing) laughs and state that he will get those eyes for himself.

Scene changes to Kabuto in a labk, stating that there aren't enough ingredients to create the 10+ ranked medicine.
He states that tomorrow is the big day (allegadly, when the ritual should have started. -so 3 years already passed?) but it would better if the ritual started today.

He then wonder: Wasn't expecting that Sasuke agreed to that so easily.
The last frame shows an unidentified foot, leading to the last page that we have all seen (where Kabuto ask, just who kept the body, while Sasuke's head just turn around, with a sad expression)

Part of Kabuto's appearance:

[chuckcsf]

Spoiler for What really happend:

Oro was having perverted thoughts about Itachi and he was touching himself. He was licking his lips while staring at Itachi so Itachi used his sharingan to take a peek inside Oro's head. He then finds out what was going on in Oro's head and was sickened by it. This is when he bound Oro and cut his hands to teach him a lesson.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I thought it was more like Itachi anticipated Oro's intentions then struck first by binding him with genjutsu and severing his hand. I think this does prove Itachi's superiority or at least the strength of his genjutsu. Not even Oro could dispel it. He was literally at Itachi's mercy. And there doesn't seem to be anything abnormal about his kunai either, aren't kunai normally black?

His genjutsu is strong, that is for sure, since Oro couldn't get out of it. What I am saying is more along the lines of, if Oro didn't create the opening himself (possible, considering the things taking place in his spiritual world, right now), would he be binded by that jutsu? Or, if Oro would be more careful in his attempt rather than, probably, underestimating his opponent's strength, would what Oro encountered have happened? That, I am not sure.

And, considering that until now, the discussion related to Oro and Itachi's strength comparison was mostly based on that unknown encounter, based on what we saw right now, I don't even think, it would be enough to be used to validate the claims that Itachi was stronger than Oro at that time.

For the kunai, always the images from the anime come to my mind, giving the impression of silvery objects (so I am not sure the manga usually portrayed it as black or white-grayish object), the black kunai here surprised me. Maybe, it is because Itachi was the one using it.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

That picture also proved that Itachi may not be superior to Oro at all. Oro was caught off guard, at that time, that's all. He was not in a fighting mode, and no fighting took place.

What this picture proved is that Itachi could bind Orochimaru with a glance effectively rendering him completely defenseless. So yeah it pretty much show that he was superior.
Oro is the one who initiated the attack to steal Itachi's body. The fact that Oro didn't know about this Sharingan Genjutsu is completely irrelevant. He tried, failed miserably and find himself completely unable to move.
That's a fight.
I know you have been saying for age that what Itachi had on Oro was the MS and refused to aknowledge that Oro's comment about Itachi's strength was refering to the past when they were both in Akatsuki but that was simply false.

I don't know what you mean by different color for the kunai, they're all black.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by xPresagio

Which if you think about it, makes even worst the fact that Kurenai -a Genjutsu master- was casted (almost artificially) aside. She should have been strong enough to defeat a good deal of the Akatsuki members in 1-1 fights.

Right here people talked pretty bad about Kurenai vs Akatsuki. That she didnt stood a chance bla bla..

She caught both Kisame & Itachi (Kisame was clearly in a bad position) but then she attack Itachi (genjutsu is obviously helpless against a completed sharingan) her mistake.

Then she got caught in genjutsu....got out of it....and then succesfully blocked Itachi's kick....and then got caught offguard.

I think many other jounins would die after being trapped in the genjutsu...she had less then a second to block itachi's kick...

I'd say she is rather good...or no...she is great. Like so many other konoha jounins..

Originally Posted by xPresagio

Also, such scene almost gives away the result of the battle with Sasuke:
Oro was already aware of such binding technique. And has been for several years. Are we supposed to believe that he didn't develop a counter, specially since it didn't derive from Tsukiyomi?

I agree...i doubt he didnt develop a counter....especially since he is a jutsu freak...

Originally Posted by xPresagio

What baffles me, is that Kabuto was used to "explain" Oro's situation regarding the urgency to change bodies, instead of something else. How the hell couldn't he heard the screams and the rockus from a full fledged snake stomping the room around?

Exactly!!!

I will mention examples...Genma, Raido (Konoha jounin squad) noticed the Sound 4 WALKING from hundreds of metres away...through the woods...

Shino...after Hinata scouted 1km into a certain direction and told there were people there....Shino had put his ear to a tree...and could detect 6 people (chuunin exam, Team Gaara)

Now this Kabuto...as skilled as Kakashi cant even notice a door being destroyed! And notice shinobi fighting against eachother....sound proof doors?

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

What this picture proved is that Itachi could bind Orochimaru with a glance effectively rendering him completely defenseless. So yeah it pretty much show that he was superior.

It seem you are pretty sure that Oro was not acting like Sarutobi when he was caught by Oro easily.

Oro is the one who initiated the attack to steal Itachi's body.

I don't see any attack. Do you? And, if yes, where?

The fact that Oro didn't know about this Sharingan Genjutsu is completely irrelevant. He tried, failed miserably and find himself completely unable to move.
That's a fight.

The main problem is not Oro knowing or not knowing Sharingan and its effects. The problem is whether Oro was acting leisurely, assuming the kid wouldn't be a problem. There is a difference here. Not being on guard is the problem here. And, whether Oro would have allowed that to happen in an actual fight, which shows the real strength, is still a big question mark, for me.

I know you have been saying for age that what Itachi had on Oro was the MS and refused to aknowledge that Oro's comment about Itachi's strength was refering to the past when they were both in Akatsuki but that was simply false.

Not yet. Wit no MS involved, I am still going to refuse to acknowledge that not for sure strength related remarks, that is presumed by many to also have non-aging characteristics, both in forward and reverse directions.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Right here people talked pretty bad about Kurenai vs Akatsuki. That she didnt stood a chance bla bla..

She caught both Kisame & Itachi (Kisame was clearly in a bad position) but then she attack Itachi (genjutsu is obviously helpless against a completed sharingan) her mistake.

Then she got caught in genjutsu....got out of it....and then succesfully blocked Itachi's kick....and then got caught offguard.

I think many other jounins would die after being trapped in the genjutsu...she had less then a second to block itachi's kick...

I'd say she is rather good...or no...she is great. Like so many other konoha jounins.

HA...I don't think she got out of that genjustu, it's more like Itachi let her go. The guy could have killed her when he wented to, i think he was just testing her power. And the blocking the kick bit, that was just reflex, basic stuff.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

HA...I don't think she got out of that genjustu, it's more like Itachi let her go. The guy could have killed her when he wented to, i think he was just testing her power. And the blocking the kick bit, that was just reflex, basic stuff.

That's really nonsense do you know that....do you know the tricks to get out a genjutsu? Shall i tell her how she got out of the genjutsu if your being honest and dont know...

Spoiler:

By her own pain...she bite her own lip (which obviously hurts like hell, try ) and then got out of the genjutsu...then she had mere moments to block Itachi's kick...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

HA...I don't think she got out of that genjustu, it's more like Itachi let her go. The guy could have killed her when he wented to, i think he was just testing her power. And the blocking the kick bit, that was just reflex, basic stuff.

She got out of it. But the way she had to escape(biting her lip hard enough to draw blood and concentrating on the pain) was obviously more desperate than the way Itachi escaped from her jutsu, which was near effortless, he didn't even have to make a handseal or shout "kai!".

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

That's really nonsense do you know that....do you know the tricks to get out a genjutsu? Shall i tell her how she got out of the genjutsu if your being honest and dont know...

Spoiler:

By her own pain...she bite her own lip (which obviously hurts like hell, try ) and then got out of the genjutsu...then she had mere moments to block Itachi's kick...

You may be right but, well i think you are but...i refuse to believe it. She's good but not that good.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

You may be right but, well i think you are but...i refuse to believe it. She's good but not that good.

Well, they are right. But, you might assume that maybe Itachi's genjutsu, at that time, was not that good.

[Ero-Senn1n]

This leads us to the stupid part of the manga: Itachi portrayed as someone who could overpower Orochimaru at age of 11-12 and without MS. On the other hand we see that Itachi used his MS against Kakashi, has escaped two times, cannot win against Kakashi having 1/3 chakra. Kakashi being afraid of Orochimaru when he has the sharingan, why was a sharingan user so afraid of Oro, and he was not so afraid of Itachi. If he was scared of Oro he should have been scared to death by Itachi, he should know the best how strong is Itachi.
Itachi in the flashback is always portrayed as almost being a ninja god, but in presend time he is not that special. Somone who is now 10 years older (7 years before the timeskip Oro attacked Itachi) than he was when he was almost godlike is now not behaving like a godlike being. Actually Itachi now should be so strong that he should not need to use a supposedly dangerous MS, just kill people using his elite skills. Instead of that Itachi idiotically drains himself using MS every time he has a chance to own someone with it. Than escapes from Jiraiya even turning off his sharingan.
On the other hand this seems to be an inflation of power, more an more power to the same "level" of ninja. In the end hokages will seem pathetic ninja if this continus with the AL who is giving orders to Itachi too. Well i guess the Naruto vs Kakuzu says it all, it's a perfect example.
But i guess i should now whine about this, it's a common shonen manga anomaly
What i whine about is that i fail to regard Itachi a ninja god despite Kishimoto trying his best to tell me that

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

You may be right but, well i think you are but...i refuse to believe it. She's good but not that good.

She caught Kisame in her genjutsu, even if Kisame would have broken out of the genjutsu eventually but having teamwork it's more probable that she gave a very good chance for Asuma to kill Kisame. Or even she could have done some serious damage to Kisame in that short time her jutsu trapped Kisame.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But i guess i should now whine about this, it's a common shonen manga anomaly

You can still use an easy logic to get out of that anomaly, meaning not the old Itachi but the current one is stronger than Oro. That would also help stop exaggerating his strength. At the end, that strength is not going to be enough against Naruto, unless Itachi fights and loses to Sasuke earlier.

[shoryuken24]

i think sasuke decided to give his body to oro for now seeing how there were trapped souls in that world ... i think sasuke will try to find a way to free those souls ... and until he finds a way to free them, we will see orochimaru in that body. at least that's how i see it ...