Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Maybe not equally bad, but you can't say that you don't invite the disaster yourself by calling someone with a deep grudge to you "jerk". I think they even have "temporary insanity" defense in US law right? You can't say that you're not on the wrong if the other side hit you after you provoke him, especially if he/she has a deep grudge on you. That is what I meant when I said both side is equally bad. Japan has been giving provocative actions and words toward China, not only regarding this island, but also the numerous visit to Japan "war hero" who rape and massacred Chinese. Surely you can't say that they expect the Chinese to not explode after all that? And if that's not call inflamatory, I don't know what is(and yes, calling someone jerk is also an inflammatory gesture)

As for demo and riot, it's just not in Japanese DNA to show their displeasure openly(they believe in "enduring" the hardships), but the grudge they held over China is more or less the same as Chinese toward Japan from my conversations with some native Japanese. You wouldn't believe what some of the older Japanese generation will say about China unless you hear it yourselves lol.

Oh yeah, I have no idea. Because you know, I'm not Japanese or anything.... oh wait. I am.

There lies deep racism towards Chinese in Japanese society, true.
There are decades of conflict, true. There are exchange of words that is offensive from both sides, TRUE.

But we are talking about acting CIVILIZED in a conflict, which China has failed miserably.
Ishihara's action, while taunting as it was, was not uncivilized. It was a jerk move, but in a contemporary political fashion.
Not OMG KILL THEM JAPS AND BREAK THEIR CRAP AND STEAL STUFF barbarism.
And worse, the government supporting the riots and inflaming it.

At the point you resort to that, you are no longer fighting on the same level.

China failed in proper response. That's all there is to it.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Coast guard comments were not intended to sound like your words, it was intended to sound like mine.
I agree that there's blame on Japanese side for not bending over and let its neighhors rape her in the ass while throwing insults, but that's NOT an excuse to act like retarded five year olds thowing tantrums.

It's like blaiming US for an inflamatory movie and attacking their embassies.... OH WAIT.

At no point did I suggest China's response was blameless or is justified, if that's what you were trying to say, which is why I wrote "China is by far and away the worst offender in this".

TBH, it's just a political show meant more for domestic consumption than international, much like the anti-US rhetorics that politicians in the middle-east often likes to fan up when things aren't going so well at home.

Originally Posted by aohige

I don't think the loyalists are Amish of Taiwan, like I said previously, I see them more like a Zionist in American government. Small in numbers, large in influence.

Hmm, I guess you can say that, though it's not quite the same. KMT has been able to retain so much political clout largely due to their massive financial holdings from the authoritarian days when they pretty much owned all the major industries, which pretty much made them one of, if not the richest political party in Asia. Though they've supposedly been divesting of those assets from party control, it's hard to say just how much they've really done since the whole process is shrouded in secrecy.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

TBH, it's just a political show meant more for domestic consumption than international, much like the anti-US rhetorics that politicians in the middle-east often likes to fan up when things aren't going so well at home.

Yeah, because you know, thats so acceptable. /maxsnarkism

Just like in the recent riots and conflict US is suffering from a video tape, the wrong is heavily on the violent protesters than the American side.

It's eerily comparable, actually.

PS: btw, kyp, I'm heavily pro-Taiwan in general. Just letting you know.

[kyp275]

Yup, that I agree. Though I tend to look at geopolitical issues like that with an analytic view rather than getting caught up in the emotions, else I'd just be constantly pissed off day in and day out

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by aohige

Oh yeah, I have no idea. Because you know, I'm not Japanese or anything.... oh wait. I am.

There lies deep racism towards Chinese in Japanese society, true.
There are decades of conflict, true. There are exchange of words that is offensive from both sides, TRUE.

But we are talking about acting CIVILIZED in a conflict, which China has failed miserably.
Ishihara's action, while taunting as it was, was not uncivilized. It was a jerk move, but in a contemporary political fashion.
Not OMG KILL THEM JAPS AND BREAK THEIR CRAP AND STEAL STUFF barbarism.
And worse, the government supporting the riots and inflaming it.

At the point you resort to that, you are no longer fighting on the same level.

China failed in proper response. That's all there is to it.

Now we're talking about a different topic, who's the worse offender instead of who's in the wrong. What I was saying was both side is in the wrong, in which I made my point that both side is just as bad, but yes, I agree that the Chinese reaction is too much and uncalled for for a provocative remarks from a mere governor

Even so, I've seen people move to a riot for less reason than this from person whose position is less higher than Ishihara, so Ishihara should have known better when he throws that remarks carelessly. People don't throw taunts carelessly toward someone with anger management issue and expect to get out of it unscathed. What he's doing is akin to a lesser version of Obama saying Mohamad is a phony and expect none of the Moslems in the world not retiliate violently( this is just an example, so to the Moslem reading this, please don't get offended). The problem is Ishihara is a person in power, and a person in power shouldn't carelessly said thing because people who don't know better will think that remark represent everyone under him. To prove my point, there has never been a riot before this toward Japan even though the tense situation has been going on for decades.

Again, I'm not saying China is the better side in this dispute or has done a good job regarding the situation. My point is Japan, or at least their government official stance by not removing Ishihara from power after that remark, is nt completely blameless either.

[Ithekro]

Sorry, slightly lost...what remark by Ishihara?

[aohige]

I disagree. You can't hold Ishihara responsible for violence enacted in rage by people in another nation.
Likewise, you cannot hold the man who created the offensive video tapes responsible for the riots in Middle East.

Criminal recklessness is their own fault.
You're pointing fingers at the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Sorry, slightly lost...what remark by Ishihara?

Being the nationalist he is, he couldn't trust the fate of the islands in the hands of liberal party in the current government.
So he decided to buy the island from its owner (a wealthy Japanese citizen whose family have the ownership of that island for years) using Tokyo's funds.
That way he can gain control of it, and do as he pleases.

BTW, China has for years tried to buy that island off the hands of the owner too. The owner refused, although they were offered much larger sum of money.

He wasn't playing nice, but to blame the thousands of violent rioters actions and looting on him is utterly ridiculous.
And this is coming from someone who HATES Ishihara with a passion, anyone who'se lurked here in Animesuki knows my dislike for that man.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

I disagree. You can't hold Ishihara responsible for violence enacted in rage by people in another nation.
Likewise, you cannot hold the man who created the offensive video tapes responsible for the riots in Middle East.

Criminal recklessness is their own fault.
You're pointing fingers at the wrong way.

This part I can't say I agree with you.

While you can't place all the blame on the ones who stoke the fires initially, you also can't excuse them completely, especially if the intent was clearly to incite like that anti-muslim video.

[kuroishinigami]

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree here. I agree that violence is wrong, no matter the situation is, but I also hold the opinion that you shouldn't wake a sleeping lion by throwing provocative actions or words if you don't want the other side to not react violently, especially if you're an official representative of people, and that's only the trigger IMO. There's only so much provocation one can take before a person snaps, and rationality goes out of the window when people snaps. That goes both ways actually, because it's not like China never provoke Japan either. It's just that the Chinese snaps faster and being less educated(at least the one who do the riot), the way they do things are barbaric

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Sorry, slightly lost...what remark by Ishihara?

The nice governor of Tokyo remarks that he plans to buy Senkaku and make it part of Tokyo municipality.

[aohige]

The fact that China offered eight times the amount Ishihara was willing to pay to buy that island years ago sits fine with you guys, I guess.

Double standard indeed.

[Ridwan]

Is Ishihara's case here completely a kind with that recent Islamic video ?

Like, did he actually intent to incite the chinese riots with it ?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Aegir

Is Ishihara's case here completely a kind with that recent Islamic video ?

Like, did he actually intent to incite the chinese riots with it ?

No. Apparently this is one of the more successful stunts to show how big his shrinking balls are.

[kuroishinigami]

Nope, I didn't agree with what China did either, nor with China various squabbles with Phillipines over the land(it's clear China is the one doing the provoking in the Phillipines case), that's why I said it's not like China never provoke Japan either. All I'm saying is neither side is blameless and a victim because from what I read in this thread, it seems a lot of people is in the opinion that Japan is the victim of China one way bullying instead of a word fight gone bad. They both do the fight and one side ends up snapping and react violently. Ishihara's remark is just the icing in the cake and he should know better not to do that when the situation is plenty tense already, just like how the Chinese shouldn't do the same years ago.

Originally Posted by Aegir

Is Ishihara's case here completely a kind with that recent Islamic video ?

Like, did he actually intent to incite the chinese riots with it ?

Not sure about the intent, but a man in his position should know better, and the government can remove him from his post or suspend him to defuse the situation if they want to.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Aegir

Is Ishihara's case here completely a kind with that recent Islamic video ?

Like, did he actually intent to incite the chinese riots with it ?

He gave a middle finger to China, and said "nuh-uh, you're ain't getting jack sh!t, cuz Imma buying this biyotch."

Basically.

Like I said, China was making moves to obtain that island already.

So he one upped them.

Take that as you will.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

The fact that China offered eight times the amount Ishihara was willing to pay to buy that island years ago sits fine with you guys, I guess.

Double standard indeed.

Err, offering is one thing, actually buying it is another, which Ishihara basically forced the national government to do with his move.

This isn't a zero-sum game here, just because one side's action is wrong doesn't mean the other side's action is right.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Err, offering is one thing, actually buying it is another, which Ishihara basically forced the national government to do with his move.

This isn't a zero-sum game here, just because one side's action is wrong doesn't mean the other side's action is right.

So you don't consider enemy state trying to buy out part of your territory, so you buying it first to protect the nation's territory an act of defense?

It offended them because they got one-upped. That's their problem, IMO.

I'm sure he knew China would not be happy, but you know what? I refer to the previous sentence.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Err, offering is one thing, actually buying it is another, which Ishihara basically forced the national government to do with his move.

Unless Ishihara has more influence over the Japanese government than PRC, that sounds a bit absurd.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

So you don't consider enemy state trying to buy out part of your territory, so you buying it first to protect the nation's territory an act of defense?

It offended them because they got one-upped. That's their problem, IMO.

I'm sure he knew China would not be happy, but you know what? I refer to the previous sentence.

sigh, you're coming from the perspective that Senkaku belongs to Japan, which is fine, but if you want to discuss these events objectively, then you have to also consider the other side's perspective, which is that it does NOT belong to Japan.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Unless Ishihara has more influence over the Japanese government than PRC, that sounds a bit absurd.

Not really. Japan's national government can't legally force Ishihara to not buy the islands and start development on it, so its hand was basically forced, as it opted to buy the island out itself first and leave it as it is, hoping that the move would draw less ire from other nations disputing the claim.

Obviously, that didn't work out very well.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Not really. Japan's national government can't legally force Ishihara to not buy the islands and start development on it, so its hand was basically forced, as it opted to buy the island out itself first and leave it as it is, hoping that the move would draw less ire from other nations disputing the claim.

Well again, we have to go back to PRC trying to buy the islands. Why did the Japanese government do nothing back then?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

sigh, you're coming from the perspective that Senkaku belongs to Japan, which is fine, but if you want to discuss these events objectively, then you have to also consider the other side's perspective, which is that it does NOT belong to Japan.

But as far as Japan is concerned, it's Japanese territory.
So a Japanese official buying the land when it's in danger of being taken is understandable.
PRC getting upset about that is also understandable, since in their view it's theirs.

Rioting is completely another issue.