AnimeSuki Forums

Mars Mode · 2013-08-17, 13:19

Thats the difficult of battles you really dont know how its gonna turn out even when you have an advantage on numbers, and in this case they were fighting for slaves besides it wasnt 2000 vs 35000 please check the actual numbers of fighters please. What they did against the first army was possible in an actual fight.

Against the second army Tigre and Ludmila they put themselves in closequarters, making the volley of arrows null. Specially the opponent being the invading army. And they still lost. The reason they won at the end was reinforcements in waves. Here there was no magic. Nor anything of the sort.

Zakoo · 2013-08-17, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

Well.... She doesn't wear a dress D= and when in the heck was Joan 16years old LOL.... Well apart from her inspiring story of being one of the few females on the battlefield ... I don't see how she could wear a dress and come out unharmed D=

She was burnt to death at the age of 19 so yeah... she was around 16-17 on the battlefield.

Flying Dagger · 2013-08-17, 14:18

One mechanic which was mostly avoided in the 1st invasion is the use of local slaves/prisoners of war/captives in the front lines of battles.

Such tactics (using locals as meat shields to lead a charge) would be really effective against someone who tries to stay on a moral high ground such as Tigre.

Leonardunitylim · 2013-08-17, 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakoo

She was burnt to death at the age of 19 so yeah... she was around 16-17 on the battlefield.

AND DANG! I just read it. CRAP ~ Burnt at stake in around 1431? ......I can't argue anymore. Vanadis are pretty much similar in Joan D'Arc's case whereby she receive a revelation for war while vanadis were chosen by viralts. Pretty cool reference there. Didn't even see that coming. Now it feels like Vanadis was related to the past wars of medieval times. The author sure did his homework lol

Zakoo · 2013-08-17, 14:36

I don't know whether they are similar, but I agree with the person who said japan modern art is heavely influcenced by her and occidental mythology in general.

Rasen · 2013-08-17, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Hence, god mode/plot armor/mary sue etc.

I'll give you that the Vanadis have "god mode," but that has nothing to do with being a Mary Sue. People with powers != Mary Sue.

And the Viralts having the ability to destroy/deflect all projectiles is not plot armor, it's just armor. Plot armor is something that protects them from a situation in which they would normally die. A stray rock randomly blocks the shot, miraculously surviving an explosion for no good reason, etc.

Leonardunitylim · 2013-08-17, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Sorry, your 3000-10000 isn't gonna break my 20,000-40,000 infantry line. It is entirely possible to pepper the general area where some magic is AND kill your army.

3k can't break 20k - 40k infantry line but 10k could really be possible you know. Of course it won't be frontal assault head on but multitudes of strategies in place. I can't assume the same circumstances for everything so 10k vs 40k is possible IF the strategies succeeds to a certain point

Flying Dagger · 2013-08-17, 17:24

Terrain plays a huge role there.

Imagine if there is this tiny valley surrounded by unclimable hills. At any point of time only 10 men can fit on the front lines...

Guerrilla tactics can rarely completely defeat a much bigger army, but is perfect for the outnumbered side, especially given terrain knowledge, to slow down enemy forces and attempt to strike at any vulnerabilities. Its main purpose would be to buy time for allies to gather, in which Tigre was successful.

The commander of the invaders cannot all of a sudden go all defensive towards a very mobile force of guerrilla fighters, as it would delay the speed of his army for too long (enemies get time to react+targets of plunder flee way ahead of time = failure). They cannot be too aggressive either, as chasing down guerrilla fighters may cause your army to become too fragmented or have part of your army walk into unfavorable positions (as seen in the novels).

Putting forth more manpower into scouting and intel gathering would counter harassment. I suppose it is also very easy to plant spies within the mixed silver meteor army (I can see a future army being named the Flying Teddybear army). Releasing a large group of sick and hungry prisoners to Tigre would also effectively chain him down. I highly doubt he will leave them alone, and the sick and hungry will act as a shackle which puts a toll on Tigre[s supply (the idea of limited supply has always been around but never really kicked in).

it is fortunate that the region where Barbarosa invaded from seem to be mostly a barren with nothing too important aside from small towns.

ZeKeR · 2013-08-18, 01:05

he really SHOULD have trained veteran archers to become rangers in cases like this. oh well.

regarding the terrain, traps and mother nature giving the enemy the middle finger like muddy ground or heavy rains might turn the advantage to the defenders. also, can they dig in a and set up bulwarks and fortifications.

Rasen · 2013-08-18, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeKeR

he really SHOULD have trained veteran archers to become rangers in cases like this. oh well.

regarding the terrain, traps and mother nature giving the enemy the middle finger like muddy ground or heavy rains might turn the advantage to the defenders. also, can they dig in a and set up bulwarks and fortifications.

It seems likely the veteran archers already know how to range. Archery was how they went hunting, after all. And for the Brune citizens, only the people who would hunt would use a bow.

Ramero · 2013-08-18, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim

3k can't break 20k - 40k infantry line but 10k could really be possible you know. Of course it won't be frontal assault head on but multitudes of strategies in place. I can't assume the same circumstances for everything so 10k vs 40k is possible IF the strategies succeeds to a certain point

Think about history of Alexander the Great which only bring 70k troop while Persia got around one Million. Outnumbered almost 15 to 1 but he can slip them and aims directly at the Supreme Commander, forcing the Persians to routed.

Basically there is only one formation to counter archers, the turtle defense formation when dealing against archer while keep moving forward, unless they got backattacked by cavalry or infantry the formation is going to keep archers think twice before hitting them while they're covered with shield and attacking. It's also useful to defend the front at sides, not from rear which was total vulnerable.

ArchmageXin · 2013-08-18, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramero

Think about history of Alexander the Great which only bring 70k troop while Persia got around one Million. Outnumbered almost 15 to 1 but he can slip them and aims directly at the Supreme Commander, forcing the Persians to routed.

Basically there is only one formation to counter archers, the turtle defense formation when dealing against archer while keep moving forward, unless they got backattacked by cavalry or infantry the formation is going to keep archers think twice before hitting them while they're covered with shield and attacking. It's also useful to defend the front at sides, not from rear which was total vulnerable.

I am pretty the whole a million thing were historians inflating numbers to prop Alexander to god like levels. Because frankly @ 1 million you wouldn't able able to logistically support your troops. (disease, starvation, dehydration, etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela

Yup, it was a top 34-100K, so at very most it was a barely 30% increase.

Flying Dagger · 2013-08-18, 19:14

100k is more of a fair number. Remember this is back when you still had to rely on messengers and smoke signals for communication. Its not like you can make a call to one of your sub commanders to have him mobilize a certain way. With any more troops, it would be better off to send them at various strategic locations, such as forming a giant flank or a blockade.

Equipment, experience, and discipline were also greatly in Alexander's favor. By that stage of his conquest, those who have followed him so far eastward were all true warriors, not merely people trying to defend their city.

Effectiveness of the persian army under their king may also be a deciding factor. I am unsure how loyal his men are (even before battle) given his fate after the loss - this leads to major control issues.

Most importantly, Alexander, as a conqueror, has a lot more experience in warfare than most of his foes.

n0m@n · 2013-08-18, 20:05

I wonder how the characters in this world would react by seeing one of those simple rifles lol.

Rasen · 2013-08-18, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0m@n

I wonder how the characters in this world would react by seeing one of those simple rifles lol.

Probably the same way the characters will react in Maoyuu.

XFire · 2013-08-18, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0m@n

I wonder how the characters in this world would react by seeing one of those simple rifles lol.

"Haha, what the hell is thatFUCKFUCKFUCK WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!?!?"

Flying Dagger · 2013-08-18, 22:19

Gunpowder would change everything they knew about battles.
Before gunpower there are also crossbows, which requires minimal training, fires a powerful bolt and can penetrate armor. Reload time is a bitch though.
Siege weapon usage and machinaries are also absent from the most part in madan...

Rasen · 2013-08-18, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Dagger

Gunpowder would change everything they knew about battles.
Before gunpower there are also crossbows, which requires minimal training, fires a powerful bolt and can penetrate armor. Reload time is a bitch though.
Siege weapon usage and machinaries are also absent from the most part in madan...

Reload time for the old rifles weren't so great either. Have to fill in gunpowder, pack it in, and then drop the buckball in.

whitecloud · 2013-08-18, 22:54

Just remember civilization games.....

Kioras · 2013-08-18, 23:30

Gunpowder muzzle loading rifles take roughly 15-30 seconds to reload depending on weapon design, and other considerations.

The crossbow was used for a long time, since Roman times, as you only needed a week of training to be familiar enough with it to use it. I am surprised there is not much use of it in the series, even though there are a handful of mentions of it.

The real advantage of gunpowder Arquebuse over a crossbow and other weapons is it combines the ease of use in training of a crossbow, with a higher fire rate then the heavy crossbows with more penetrating power. Heavy plate armor could stop a gunshot at long range, but at closer ranges they could be punched through. Of course the weight of the stones meant that even glancing blows could be fatal, and a horse would be lucky to survive one or two shots, while arrows/bolts they could possibly be healed from.

If gunpowder was introduced along with more advanced Arquebuse's it would change tactics. Tactics would likely evolve towards the Tercio formation, and the improvement in artillerary towards ones that can actually reduce castle walls would significantly change things.

However due to the time frame involved, as it took about 200 years to go to the Arquebuse from the handcannon, we will not see much in the way of gunpowder at all.

2013-08-18, 01:05	Link #2729
ZeKeR Superbad Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Armacham Replica Training center	he really SHOULD have trained veteran archers to become rangers in cases like this. oh well. regarding the terrain, traps and mother nature giving the enemy the middle finger like muddy ground or heavy rains might turn the advantage to the defenders. also, can they dig in a and set up bulwarks and fortifications. __________________ lets roll

2013-08-18, 20:05	Link #2734
n0m@n C-Z Join Date: Jan 2011	I wonder how the characters in this world would react by seeing one of those simple rifles lol. __________________

2013-08-18, 22:54	Link #2739
whitecloud Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Just remember civilization games..... __________________ Friends are nice.......

2013-08-17, 13:19	Link #2721
Mars Mode Senior Member Join Date: May 2011	Thats the difficult of battles you really dont know how its gonna turn out even when you have an advantage on numbers, and in this case they were fighting for slaves besides it wasnt 2000 vs 35000 please check the actual numbers of fighters please. What they did against the first army was possible in an actual fight. Against the second army Tigre and Ludmila they put themselves in closequarters, making the volley of arrows null. Specially the opponent being the invading army. And they still lost. The reason they won at the end was reinforcements in waves. Here there was no magic. Nor anything of the sort.

2013-08-17, 14:18	Link #2723
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	One mechanic which was mostly avoided in the 1st invasion is the use of local slaves/prisoners of war/captives in the front lines of battles. Such tactics (using locals as meat shields to lead a charge) would be really effective against someone who tries to stay on a moral high ground such as Tigre.

2013-08-17, 14:36	Link #2725
Zakoo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Gensokyo	I don't know whether they are similar, but I agree with the person who said japan modern art is heavely influcenced by her and occidental mythology in general.

2013-08-17, 17:24	Link #2728
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	Terrain plays a huge role there. Imagine if there is this tiny valley surrounded by unclimable hills. At any point of time only 10 men can fit on the front lines... Guerrilla tactics can rarely completely defeat a much bigger army, but is perfect for the outnumbered side, especially given terrain knowledge, to slow down enemy forces and attempt to strike at any vulnerabilities. Its main purpose would be to buy time for allies to gather, in which Tigre was successful. The commander of the invaders cannot all of a sudden go all defensive towards a very mobile force of guerrilla fighters, as it would delay the speed of his army for too long (enemies get time to react+targets of plunder flee way ahead of time = failure). They cannot be too aggressive either, as chasing down guerrilla fighters may cause your army to become too fragmented or have part of your army walk into unfavorable positions (as seen in the novels). Putting forth more manpower into scouting and intel gathering would counter harassment. I suppose it is also very easy to plant spies within the mixed silver meteor army (I can see a future army being named the Flying Teddybear army). Releasing a large group of sick and hungry prisoners to Tigre would also effectively chain him down. I highly doubt he will leave them alone, and the sick and hungry will act as a shackle which puts a toll on Tigre[s supply (the idea of limited supply has always been around but never really kicked in). it is fortunate that the region where Barbarosa invaded from seem to be mostly a barren with nothing too important aside from small towns.

2013-08-18, 19:14	Link #2733
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	100k is more of a fair number. Remember this is back when you still had to rely on messengers and smoke signals for communication. Its not like you can make a call to one of your sub commanders to have him mobilize a certain way. With any more troops, it would be better off to send them at various strategic locations, such as forming a giant flank or a blockade. Equipment, experience, and discipline were also greatly in Alexander's favor. By that stage of his conquest, those who have followed him so far eastward were all true warriors, not merely people trying to defend their city. Effectiveness of the persian army under their king may also be a deciding factor. I am unsure how loyal his men are (even before battle) given his fate after the loss - this leads to major control issues. Most importantly, Alexander, as a conqueror, has a lot more experience in warfare than most of his foes.

2013-08-18, 22:19	Link #2737
Flying Dagger 大巧不工 Join Date: Dec 2003	Gunpowder would change everything they knew about battles. Before gunpower there are also crossbows, which requires minimal training, fires a powerful bolt and can penetrate armor. Reload time is a bitch though. Siege weapon usage and machinaries are also absent from the most part in madan...

2013-08-18, 23:30	Link #2740
Kioras Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010	Gunpowder muzzle loading rifles take roughly 15-30 seconds to reload depending on weapon design, and other considerations. The crossbow was used for a long time, since Roman times, as you only needed a week of training to be familiar enough with it to use it. I am surprised there is not much use of it in the series, even though there are a handful of mentions of it. The real advantage of gunpowder Arquebuse over a crossbow and other weapons is it combines the ease of use in training of a crossbow, with a higher fire rate then the heavy crossbows with more penetrating power. Heavy plate armor could stop a gunshot at long range, but at closer ranges they could be punched through. Of course the weight of the stones meant that even glancing blows could be fatal, and a horse would be lucky to survive one or two shots, while arrows/bolts they could possibly be healed from. If gunpowder was introduced along with more advanced Arquebuse's it would change tactics. Tactics would likely evolve towards the Tercio formation, and the improvement in artillerary towards ones that can actually reduce castle walls would significantly change things. However due to the time frame involved, as it took about 200 years to go to the Arquebuse from the handcannon, we will not see much in the way of gunpowder at all.