Shogun II: Total War

[Nosauz]

This is looks fabulous, i'm hoping my OC 8800GTS can run this smoothly but i won't mind upgrading my gfx card for this game, just looks fabulous.

[Hooves]

If the AI actually does attack from more then one position in siege battles, then that is good enough for me

[MrTerrorist]

In that trailer, was that one with a Turban one of those Japanese Buddhist Warriors i heard about?

[Nerroth]

Fall of the Samurai expansion due in March:

[Hooves]

I get the feeling they used The Last Samurai's explanation for the gatling gun. But the first trailer is such a troll, it goes about the way of the samurai. Only to get devastated by the gatling gun. I can see the gatling gun being extremely overused in multiplayer. When someone just sits there and camps, blocking all entry points with nothing but those guns.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

That's what cannons are for.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Hooves

I get the feeling they used The Last Samurai's explanation for the gatling gun. But the first trailer is such a troll, it goes about the way of the samurai. Only to get devastated by the gatling gun. I can see the gatling gun being extremely overused in multiplayer. When someone just sits there and camps, blocking all entry points with nothing but those guns.

Can't they just get bombarded with fire rockets?
The Gatling has high rate of fire, but you can't snipe with it. It would stop any charge, sure, but I am not sure it can out-range even the archers. It is probably more of an anti-melee unit than as an all purpose weapon.

[Tiresias]

I'm looking forward to shredding T*m Cru*se with the Gatling Gun. Unlike the movie, I'll make sure they don't miss (or keep firing if he's still talking )

Originally Posted by Hooves

When someone just sits there and camps, blocking all entry points with nothing but those guns.

Well that is how they use MG's in that era Expect the attacking force to send waves of infantry charges, WWI style

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Can't they just get bombarded with fire rockets?
The Gatling has high rate of fire, but you can't snipe with it. It would stop any charge, sure, but I am not sure it can out-range even the archers. It is probably more of an anti-melee unit than as an all purpose weapon.

That really gonna depends on how historically accurate the Gatling will be. If the stats are the same as the real deal then archers are f*cked (not to mention IIRC Japanese bows has somewhat inferior range compared to their Korean, Turkish or English counterparts). On the other hand, the japs never got their hands on a high number of Gatling Guns, so expect it to require high-end buildings or some kind of unit cap to prevent single-player Gatling-spam (God help the multiplayer games ).

So, are they going to go with 'two weeks per turn' a la Napoleon? What's the starting year, anyway? Will this cover the Satsuma Rebellion?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The gatling gun's range is 250.

I'm pretty sure the artillery range is a lot higher than that so that would balance it out.

Plus it's a direct line of sight weapon so it's useless if the guy is coming up from a hill.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The gatling gun's range is 250.

I'm pretty sure the artillery range is a lot higher than that so that would balance it out.

Japanese bows usually had a range of less than 150 meters.

[NoemiChan]

In the LAST SAMURAI movie, the samurais were able to reach the soldiers by attacking with horses at full gallop (attacking at the front was heroic but crazy).

Cannons ( and guns probably) are of full effectiveness when a target is at a fix position. Spreading my troops and using natural shields ( trees) would minimize casualities. I'm discourage to use forts when battling an enemy with a far longer range unless I have more further range.

My classic strategy against artillery (in all TOTAL WAR )is through "ambush" method (not in the campaign but in the battlefield itself). But its effectiveness depends on the terrain unless you surround them when horses and charging in different directions will likely raise your chance in winning. Attacking in front is suicidal.

[DonQuigleone]

Cavalry would have still been effective at this time. They only really lost their value completely in WW1.

All you need to do is flank.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Can't they just get bombarded with fire rockets?
The Gatling has high rate of fire, but you can't snipe with it. It would stop any charge, sure, but I am not sure it can out-range even the archers. It is probably more of an anti-melee unit than as an all purpose weapon.

A gatling gun fires rifle rounds Vallen. It's gonna out range bows.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

A gatling gun fires rifle rounds Vallen. It's gonna out range bows.

This is true, but it's accuracy would decline substantially at range. Even modren Machine guns have terrible accuracy, gatling guns are only going to be worse.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

This is true, but it's accuracy would decline substantially at range. Even modren Machine guns have terrible accuracy, gatling guns are only going to be worse.

All ranged weapons suffer accuracy decline at range. The bow is a dangerous weapon of its (very, very long) age not because each arrow would snipe someone's head, but because barrages of arrows have a great chance of hitting those inside tightly-packed formations. The Gatling is no different, only with better maximum range, faster rate-of-fire and the ability to better penetrate lamellar armors.

Yes, it's very overpowered - there's a reason the Japanese (and the rest of the world) phased out their bows in favor of rifles and machine guns. I don't see why it has to be de-powered for balance purpose, really - they can balance it by making it ridiculously expensive (and thus much, much harder to spam), but reducing its stats just to give obsolete weapons a fair fight is silly.

This is Fall of the Samurai, when they realize that the old ways can use some update. Don't believe the bullshit that Last Samurai movie taught you - the Samurai forces of the dying Tokugawa Shogunate and the Satsuma Rebellion also heavily used rifles. Both opposing sides of the Boshin War modernized.

[Darsovin]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

This is true, but it's accuracy would decline substantially at range. Even modren Machine guns have terrible accuracy, gatling guns are only going to be worse.

I"ll just leave this here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...AvFup8Y#t=325s

It's even been used as a sniper rifle when mounted with a telescopic sight.

Still a gatling gun is more of a fixed weapon, so only really useful as a base of fire weapon to screen troop movements or to deny an avenue of attack from the enemy. Just ask the defenders of San Juan Hill during the Spanish American war.

You just have to attack a gatling gun like you would any fixed position. Fix it's firing arc by attacking in one direction, then FLANK IT!

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

All ranged weapons suffer accuracy decline at range. The bow is a dangerous weapon of its (very, very long) age not because each arrow would snipe someone's head, but because barrages of arrows have a great chance of hitting those inside tightly-packed formations. The Gatling is no different, only with better maximum range, faster rate-of-fire and the ability to better penetrate lamellar armors.

Funny that, I always considered the Samurai armour as being barely more than symbolic. Culturally Japan never liked using shields, and their focus on offence means most direct hits by either arrows or swords would be One Hit KOs. In some ways the Japanese didn't have to change much to adapt to firearms; they haven't got the full body platemail that we already know are useless against bullets.

I would be interested to see how they could balance with the Gatlings. I envision having gatling guns defending artillery units. One takes care of extreme long range, the other prevents anyone from getting close.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Funny that, I always considered the Samurai armour as being barely more than symbolic. Culturally Japan never liked using shields, and their focus on offence means most direct hits by either arrows or swords would be One Hit KOs. In some ways the Japanese didn't have to change much to adapt to firearms; they haven't got the full body platemail that we already know are useless against bullets.

Their armor was actually quite good at reducing the effectiveness of arrows and shallow sword cuts, which gave the samurai advantage against lesser opponents whose inferior weapons training prevented them from fully utilizing the capabilities of spears and swords. Guns will maul them, though.

And platemail can actually resist bullets from early arquebus. It only fell out of favor when the evolution of muskets outstrips the evolution of body armor.

I would be interested to see how they could balance with the Gatlings. I envision having gatling guns defending artillery units. One takes care of extreme long range, the other prevents anyone from getting close.

Probably the same way it usually happen during the period: massed infantry charges from several directions covered by their own artillery barrages. The stationary nature of artillery units and Gatling guns makes them more susceptible to artillery fire whereas infantry can spread out and run.

If the defending artillery targets the enemy artillery, then the infantry might get too close. If they target the incoming charge, enemy artillery can attack them unmolested.

Yes, it will still be bloody. On the bright side, I don't seem to recall the Boshin War as having trench battles that makes it even more bloody .

[SoldierOfDarkness]

It's not that much more different than dealing with cannons armed with canister rounds that can shred line infantry to pieces.

Use either artillery to break it up or take advantage of the fact that it moves slowly and has a fixed arc to fire in. Therefore use cannon fodder to draw its attention and then engage it with flanking cavalry.

If it's a really well defended place then you have no choice but to use brute force and will suffer heavy casualities for it.

And platemail can actually resist bullets from early arquebus. It only fell out of favor when the evolution of muskets outstrips the evolution of body armor.

Well in this era they were using minie rifles which packed quite a punch so body armour is useless.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

This is true, but it's accuracy would decline substantially at range. Even modren Machine guns have terrible accuracy, gatling guns are only going to be worse.

What gave you that idea? Call of Duty?


A modern machine gun with a tripod can have an effective range of up to two kilometers. If modern machine guns were so crappy at long range, then WW1 would have simply had marksmen effortlessly picking them off from long distance, just like in your average FPS where a mounted machine gun is given shit accuracy compared to most precision weapons for balance reasons.


The thing people forget is that bows suffer even more bad accuracy at range. You know how some bows are touted at having a range of 175 meters? That's massed volley fire against an area target, not your archers aiming at individual guys.

If you have any kind of weapon firing rifled bullets, you're going to be able to accurately hit individuals at 300 yards easy if they're out in the open.



edit: If anyone wants to get familiarized with Machine guns, I'd suggest this WW2 infantry training video.

Machine guns on bipods firing 7.62/.30 caliber rifle ammunition CAN be reliably expected to engage dug in targets at a thousand yards.