Medaka Box [Manga]

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The one thing you are sure of is a troll, lol. What makes you so sure there's anything you can always believe in or count on? At the start of the manga, we might have thought "there's no way Medaka will ever stop believing she's meant to help people", right? Or "there's no way Medaka will ever lose to her enemies". Etc. etc. There are so many basic fundamental premises in this series which have been overturned, what makes you think Medaka's 'love'/dependence on Zen is an exception?

Love != dependency. Her dependency will likely disappear, but I can't imagine that her love for Zen ever will, since nothing has ever indicated that to be a permanent possibility for her. Though trolls have been a constant occurrence throughout the story, I find it extremely hard to believe that their relationship will undergo a similar fate, especially after it's been ingrained into the story and their characters so heavily before now. It can and likely will be altered, of course, but a permanent abandonment of their relationship easily remains one of the least likely developments for this story, IMO. I'll need far more substantial narrative evidence before I even begin to assume that the lasting nature of their relationship and eventual marriage is anything but an inevitability.

'Realistic' != depth. Medaka's strength and intelligence is unrealistic in the first place. For such an unrealistic existence, it is actually more realistic for them to become similarly emotionally independent. The 'human depth' that Medaka should have as a character should be the human depth of actual human 'geniuses', not 'humanity' in the sense that panders to the understanding of your average neanderthalic shounen reader.

There are no actual Medaka fans who like her solely for her rare moments of showing dependency on Zen. Not only would they be missing out on the majority of her meaningful characterization, but the idea of reducing a human to that in the very first place is utterly sickening.

Put simply, her love for Zenkichi is one of the only qualities she possesses that is distinctly normal. Of course, her dependency on said love, similar to Zenkichi's dependency, was quite unhealthy for both and inevitably destined to be discarded, but, rather than "depth", which was a bit of a misstatement, it does add considerably to her characterization, since it's removed from the plethora of "super-human" traits she currently possesses.

The conversation was pretty damned dramatic. Zenkichi has previously defined his entire existence as "the one who will never leave Medaka's side". Medaka had also previously taken for granted "I will never be lonely (despite this being my greatest fear), because Zenkichi will always catch up to me". With Zenkichi refusing Medaka's expectation that he would go with her, he has changed the entire fundamental basis of their relationship. He has abandoned the sole fundamental reason why Medaka 'loved'/was emotionally dependent on him in the first place.

The conversation was certainly dramatic on Medaka's side, but I was largely referring to Zenkichi's role in the conversation, as he was smiling throughout, and I highly doubt that would be the case if he's expecting her to be gone forever. Really though, can you honestly envision the manga ending without Medaka and Zenkichi together. I think the only possibility of that happening is if one of them dies or the manga is altogether cancelled prior to the conclusion.

Medaka and Zenkichi's "goodbye" could very certainly develop into a permanent one, because there is precisely nothing holding their relationship together anymore.

So...the fact that they are engaged and still love each other, even beyond those minimal parameters, isn't enough to hold it together? I find that absurd. Their love, like themselves, can and likely will evolve and eventually mature.

[Wolfenstein]

Look, Sol. I get where you're coming from. Honest. I probably hate Medaka x Zen ten times more than you, do.
But, they're inevitably going to end up toguether. It's just going to happen, one way or the other. That's just an unfortunate fact that has to be accepted.

Yes. Zen isn't an addict of Medaka's love anymore. He just dumped her offer(probably one which entailed getting laid every night), for a time in his life away from her.
And that's awesome. We should find that awesome. Zen's growing. He hates the fact that he was so needy of Medaka's love that he was missing out in living the life that he wanted to, and he's finally decided to have some time to live that. Finally realized that he hated how he was acting and that he's not satisfied anymore with *just* Medaka.

But, let's be honest. Could this evolve into them not loving each other anymore? Zen abandoning it completely because he either finds someone else or feel like he's grown past it?

Yeah.

Could Medaka stop loving him for, I dunno, X reasons?

yeah.

But is it likely?

No.

It's, like, a 1% chance, at best.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

Love != dependency

This is the fundamental thing you will have to prove. Not in general, but specifically in Medaka's case. What evidence is there that Zenkichi holds any special meaning to Medaka besides her dependence on his dedication which will protect her from loneliness? Zenkichi did previously give her a meaning to her existence, but then he took it away. The one thing which has maintained Medaka's love for Zenkichi ever since then was that even without her meaning for existence, she trusted that Zenkichi would always be there for her.

Zenkichi's proposal itself was merely a formalization of that dedication to their future together. Why would Medaka be happy to be engaged to Zenkichi? Because it formally symbolized Zenkichi's promise that they would always be together. That promise is specifically what Zenkichi has reneged on in this chapter (to the benefit of both of their characters). There is no reason to expect the engagement itself to be upheld past this chapter, unless you expect Zen to grow backwards from his character development.

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

...

But, let's be honest. Could this evolve into them not loving each other anymore? Zen abandoning it completely because he either finds someone else or feel like he's grown past it?

Yeah.

Could Medaka stop loving him for, I dunno, X reasons?

yeah.

But is it likely?

No.

It's, like, a 1% chance, at best.

Character growth is the point of any character-driven story. That's what Medaka Box is, and from a character development point of view, Zenkichi and Medaka 'growing past' their love for each other should be a given. I give it a far higher probability of happening than you, and that is grounded in any modicum of respect Nishio might have for himself as a writer with literary self-integrity.

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Zenkichi's proposal itself was merely a formalization of that dedication to their future together. Why would Medaka be happy to be engaged to Zenkichi? Because it formally symbolized Zenkichi's promise that they would always be together. That promise is specifically what Zenkichi has reneged on in this chapter (to the benefit of both of their characters). There is no reason to expect the engagement itself to be upheld past this chapter, unless you expect Zen to grow backwards from his character development.

There's really no reason to expect the engagement to not be upheld, and I don't understand why Zen's desire for independence equates to a complete annihilation of their mutual love for one another or their inevitable marriage. It certainly doesn't indicate a reversion of his character development, since he only stipulated that he wants to live for himself as well. He clearly wasn't suggesting that he could never live beside Medaka, but only that it can no longer be his sole concern, which is a subtlety that appears to be lost on some.

Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.

Character growth is the point of any character-driven story. That's what Medaka Box is, and from a character development point of view, Zenkichi and Medaka 'growing past' their love for each other should be a given. I give it a far higher probability of happening than you, and that is grounded in any modicum of respect Nishio might have for himself as a writer with literary self-integrity.

If their love was an altogether detrimental emotion, then you'd have a point about their need for a growth away from that, but it's never been wholly illustrated as such. The absurd dependency, on the other hand, is what their characters should and evidently will "grow out of".

Seriously? Your notions of what should occur between Zenkichi and Medaka does not automatically signify "literary self-integrity", and the opposite certainly doesn't strip it away. That's some flawed reasoning.

[ccie20012]

I think 1% is a very good chance. I would say a much smaller values = 10^-10.
Recall the last arc.
Oh, Ajimu died. Oh, Medaka died. Exactly exactly died.
Oh, do not die - but certainly missing from the manga.
Yes, yes of course. About 15 pages of manga (for Medaka).
[sarcasm]
Of course, I stand by my opinion that the Zen acts like an idiot. Almost like an idiot.
But in general, I do not see what is threatening the pair.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

There's really no reason to expect the engagement to not be upheld, and I don't understand why Zen's desire for independence equates to a complete annihilation of their mutual love for one another or their inevitable marriage. It certainly doesn't indicate a reversion of his character development, since he only stipulated that he wants to live for himself as well. He clearly wasn't suggesting that he could never live beside Medaka, but only that it can no longer be his sole concern, which is a subtlety that appears to be lost on some.

Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.

^

I pretty much think this is what's gonna happen in the future.

Don't get me wrong, though. I actually do want him to grow out of his love for her, personally.

But, hey. Fanfiction is there for a reason, am I right?

[Sol Falling]

First of all, you guys have got something wrong. There is no sense that Zenkichi was ever really 'dependent' on Medaka. He's just been living with the kind of retarded teenage idea of "I should live my entire life for this woman" for quite some time. It's the kind of idea that arises from a combination of unbearably simplistic, reductionist idealism, and thinking with your dick.

Zenkichi's 'maturation' represents a graduation from this sort of close-minded self-conception (i.e. that "a man's life revolves around a woman." Of course, I find the reciprocate idea, "a woman's life revolves around a man", equally disgusting as well, but that's a separate battle). Zenkichi was however never dependent on Medaka in any practical or emotional sense. If you insisted on calling what Zenkichi felt for Medaka a 'dependency', the most accurate would probably be an intellectual dependency, in terms of how he saw the world.

Anyway, with that clarified, speaking now of Medaka's case:

Originally Posted by zigantz22

Though it once did for both, I don't think that dependency defines their love for one another any longer, which is why their relationship isn't in question for me. I'm certain that Medaka's not going to fall out of love with Zenkichi simply due to his decision to temporarily not follow her every whim. I'd have to see that to believe it, and I'm definitely not expecting to.

How do you even come to this conclusion, though? Where can you find any evidence that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi isn't just her emotional dependency? The fact that Medaka went and issued a dramatic "goodbye" over this incident certainly indicates that her trust in Zenkichi's dedication was by far and away the most significant part of her feelings for him.

Medaka's attachment to Zen has always indicated an infantile, incomplete, flawed and unsustainable dependence on him. As I said before, before you can continue with your premise that Medaka's 'love' for Zen is not completely defined by her dependency on him, you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency, post-ch. 140, at all.

[Lupus753]

Sol, you keep saying that others have to find evidence that Medaka's love is not dependency. But I say to you that saying a person's love is a form of dependency is a far more unusual statement, so I believe that you are the one who should be getting evidence for this debate.

[Sol Falling]

lol, I've never said that Medaka's 'love' was a form of dependency. The reason I've been using quotation marks around 'love' all this time because Medaka has never shown any actual love for Zenkichi in the first place. All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.

My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series. I can't be assed to actually go through and list or explain them all, so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like.

[Lupus753]

I say this because Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi never looked like any form of dependency to me, so I have no idea where to start.

[Daniel E.]

I would like to remind everybody that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here, nor is it allowed to mention sites that provide licensed or RAW content.

We have posted this warning many times over across the whole forum and if people continue to ignore this, we will be left with no choice but to hand out direct bans to anyone that refuses to listen.

Do not post images that clearly show the name of the host site either.

[Sol Falling]

The basis of Medaka's character is: 1) she's isolated from other people because of her abilities, and 2) due to the difficulty of finding a place where she's accepted on account of her abilities, she has trouble understanding the point or purpose of her life.

Medaka is emotionally dependent on Zen because he accepted her. In the beginning, he even gave her a purpose which could potentially make other people accept her. For that reason, Medaka depended on Zenkichi's purpose for her, and his belief in that purpose, to fight against the loneliness of being isolated for a long time.

After a while, Zenkichi took away Medaka's purpose and told her he had been mistaken about it. This left Medaka to discover some more genuine way to connect to people on her own. However, despite losing her purpose, the most important thing for Medaka was still there: the fact that at least one person (Zenkichi) was still there who would always accept/understand her.

Because Zenkichi would basically always exist as that sort of security blanket for her, Medaka would never truly need to grow or try hard to develop beyond her inability to communicate with others. Although Medaka set off on her own to discover her purpose in the universe amongst other humans, Zenkichi's proposal to Medaka was essentially a confirmation that she wouldn't need it in the end. Medaka's happy response to it indicated that that security blanket is something which she wanted emotionally, but in terms of personal growth it has never been something portrayed as necessarily good for her.

Medaka and Zenkichi's engagement has never represented anything which would be positive for their character development. In fact it is an obstacle. Medaka's love for Zenkichi has never been portrayed as anything besides a security blanket for her loneliness; a final safety against the possibility of her inability to communicate with others. However, in fact, Medaka successfully learning to communicate with others is absolutely necessary -- it is the fundamental point of all her character development.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

I would like to remind everybody that posting links to scanlation sites is not allowed here, nor is it allowed to mention sites that provide licensed or RAW content.

We have posted this warning many times over across the whole forum and if people continue to ignore this, we will be left with no choice but to hand out direct bans to anyone that refuses to listen.

Do not post images that clearly show the name of the host site either.

Pretty random. I guess this is just a general warning? Or are there specific examples of transgressions in this thread.

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

How do you even come to this conclusion, though? Where can you find any evidence that Medaka's 'love' for Zenkichi isn't just her emotional dependency? The fact that Medaka went and issued a dramatic "goodbye" over this incident certainly indicates that her trust in Zenkichi's dedication was by far and away the most significant part of her feelings for him.

Medaka's attachment to Zen has always indicated an infantile, incomplete, flawed and unsustainable dependence on him. As I said before, before you can continue with your premise that Medaka's 'love' for Zen is not completely defined by her dependency on him, you are going to have to first find evidence of any sort of feeling from Medaka not based on dependency, post-ch. 140, at all.

lol, I've never said that Medaka's 'love' was a form of dependency. The reason I've been using quotation marks around 'love' all this time because Medaka has never shown any actual love for Zenkichi in the first place. All she has ever shown is emotional dependency, and this would be clear to anyone who has actually paid attention to her characterization.

My evidence is pretty much any freakin' scene about Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi in the entire series. I can't be assed to actually go through and list or explain them all, so if you really want to argue otherwise just pick any one you like.

For starters, Medaka's confession and subsequent kiss, but "dependency" is such a nebulous concept that I'm not entirely certain which of their interactions you'd consider to be moments that fall under that particular descriptor. I mean, if that romantic flourish was solely indicative of dependency for you, then I don't really know what else to say, since that moment perfectly illustrated that her feelings for him had, at the very least, slightly evolved past the early stages of only identifying him as an indistinct figure to constantly stand by her side. I'm fairly certain that it's much more complex than that.

I certainly agree that her love for him can be considered flawed, but so can Zenkichi's for her, but the flawed aspects have rarely outweighed the beneficial ones for me, which is why I'm expecting the seemingly inevitable maturity that both will acquire will naturally eliminate several of those completely realistic "flaws".

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

For starters, Medaka's confession and subsequent kiss, but "dependency" is such a nebulous concept that I'm not entirely certain which of their interactions you'd consider to be moments that fall under that particular descriptor. I mean, if that romantic flourish was solely indicative of dependency for you, then I don't really know what else to say, since that moment perfectly illustrated that her feelings for him had, at the very least, slightly evolved past the early stages of only identifying him as an indistinct figure to constantly stand by her side. I'm fairly certain that it's much more complex than that.

If you're referring to the kiss in ch. 140, it's precisely the opposite. Medaka's confession and emotions in that chapter were exactly based on the fact that although she had her entire life's purpose stripped away from her, Medaka felt that she could at least count on Zenkichi always being there for her. Because, after all, the way Zenkichi put it, he had even defeated her for her own sake. Zenkichi's devotion was the only thing which shone through to Medaka in that moment, which makes sense because, hey! Ajimu had just helped Zenkichi 'realize' that loving Medaka was the purpose of his entire life.

I certainly agree that her love for him can be considered flawed, but so can Zenkichi's for her, but the flawed aspects have rarely outweighed the beneficial ones for me, which is why I'm expecting the seemingly inevitable maturity that both will acquire will naturally eliminate several of those completely realistic "flaws".

lol, for fucking sure I also consider Zenkichi's love for Medaka equally flawed. That's why I've been rooting for him to get over it. There's no reason why Zenkichi and Medaka's inevitable maturity has to lead to them getting back together. Of the few positive aspects of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship, none of them have anything to do with their obsessive/dependent romantic 'love' for each other, meaning that a 'mature' Medaka and Zenkichi could get on perfectly well (in fact, would probably get on even better) as plain friends.

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If you're referring to the kiss in ch. 140, it's precisely the opposite. Medaka's confession and emotions in that chapter were exactly based on the fact that although she had her entire life's purpose stripped away from her, Medaka felt that she could at least count on Zenkichi always being there for her. Because, after all, the way Zenkichi put it, he had even defeated her for her own sake. Zenkichi's devotion was the only thing which shone through to Medaka in that moment, which makes sense because, hey! Ajimu had just helped Zenkichi 'realize' that loving Medaka was the purpose of his entire life.

Yeah…I don’t see much dependency in that at all; certainly not to the level you're suggesting, and even if, for arguments sake, it played a part in her thought process, it wasn’t the sole contributor to her outburst of rare affection. I honestly think you’re reading far too much into ordinary relationship development, while consequently manipulating their entire history into some narrative that solely implies a destructive conclusion to their romance.

Essentially, the dependency is an increasingly minuscule factor in her love for Zenkichi and it's a bit strange to blanket all of their relationship development with a singular aspect of Medaka's connection to Zenkichi that was far more integral when they were young.

lol, for fucking sure I also consider Zenkichi's love for Medaka equally flawed. That's why I've been rooting for him to get over it. There's no reason why Zenkichi and Medaka's inevitable maturity has to lead to them getting back together. Of the few positive aspects of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship, none of them have anything to do with their obsessive/dependent romantic 'love' for each other, meaning that a 'mature' Medaka and Zenkichi could get on perfectly well (in fact, would probably get on even better) as plain friends.

Of course, they could very well get along nicely as friends, and I’m sure some would greatly prefer that, but there’s no fragment of significant evidence that suggests that their relationship won’t naturally return to that of a romantic one. They’d have to first cease loving one another, and, as I’ve mentioned countless times, this temporary separation isn’t nearly enough to produce such a result.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

Yeah…I don’t see much dependency in that at all; certainly not to the level you're suggesting, and even if, for arguments sake, it played a part in her thought process, it wasn’t the sole contributor to her outburst of rare affection. I honestly think you’re reading far too much into ordinary relationship development, while consequently manipulating their entire history into some narrative that solely implies a destructive conclusion to their romance.

Essentially, the dependency is an increasingly minuscule factor in her love for Zenkichi and it's a bit strange to blanket all of their relationship development with a singular aspect of Medaka's connection to Zenkichi that was far more integral when they were young.

"Ordinary relationship development" lol. "Miniscule factor" lol. You still haven't identified how anything besides dependency was ever shown in that scene at all.

Go to the pre-serialization oneshot or another of the very earliest chapters of the series. Medaka says that "Zenkichi's the man who won't ever let me be alone". Go to Medaka's confrontation with Bukiko just before Zenkichi arrives in the Jet Black Wedding arc. Medaka says "Zenkichi's the one who will always catch up to my side". The entire basis of Medaka's 'love' for Zen has always been based on her faith and belief in his dedication to her. Her expectation that he would always be her final answer against loneliness. That is the entirety of her feelings for Zen. She has zero connection to him aside from that.

Seriously, what exactly was your argument? "Medaka kissed Zen, therefore she doesn't emotionally depend on him"? Was that your actual attempt at an answer or am I mistaking something? I'm still waiting for any (ANY) evidence that Medaka's feelings for Zen involved anything besides being happy about his complete dedication to her. I hardly care whether you "buy" my arguments or not if you can't even suggest a coherent alternative.

[zigantz22]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

"Ordinary relationship development" lol.

I still don't understand how this is an inaccurate perception, since it was only presented as such. IMO, at least.

"Miniscule factor" lol. You still haven't identified how anything besides dependency was ever shown in that scene at all.

Go to the pre-serialization oneshot or another of the very earliest chapters of the series. Medaka says that "Zenkichi's the man who won't ever let me be alone". Go to Medaka's confrontation with Bukiko just before Zenkichi arrives in the Jet Black Wedding arc. Medaka says "Zenkichi's the one who will always catch up to my side". The entire basis of Medaka's 'love' for Zen has always been based on her faith and belief in his dedication to her. Her expectation that he would always be her final answer against loneliness. That is the entirety of her feelings for Zen. She has zero connection to him aside from that.

Seriously, what exactly was your argument? "Medaka kissed Zen, therefore she doesn't emotionally depend on him"? Was that your actual attempt at an answer or am I mistaking something? I'm still waiting for any (ANY) evidence that Medaka's feelings for Zen involved anything besides being happy about his complete dedication to her. I hardly care whether you "buy" my arguments or not if you can't even suggest a coherent alternative.

You still haven’t identified the dependency that was evidently shown in that scene, aside from several highly subjective inferences towards the meaning of her confession. You interpret her choosing to confess and kiss him as a furtherance of her inability to admire anything but his devotion towards her, whereas I perceive it to be considerably more than that. I see a physical attraction and a surprising realization of her romantic feelings for him. I see her rewarding his kindness with a display of affection simply due to a temporary desire for intimacy, which wouldn’t have existed if an emotional dependence remained her only reason for seeing him as an individual.

My argument was that there is actual love within Medaka’s feelings for Zen, and though I could simply wait for the rest of this arc to thoroughly prove my point, I felt compelled to offer a contention to your assumption that she has no connection to him beyond a need for his presence. He’s easily the most important person in her life, due to a plethora of reasons that far extend beyond mere dependency, or, otherwise, she could have simply decided to fall for Kumagawa, since he too could have saved her from her loneliness, and yet she never has.

Regardless, it’s not as though I think their relationship has incredible depth, which is why I’ve repeatedly mentioned that Zenkichi and Medaka need to mature as individuals before it progresses even further. Though occasionally complex, Zenkichi and Medaka’s feelings for one another are typically simplistic. However, this simplicity, IMO, at least when concerning Medaka, no longer exists solely due to emotional dependence, and, though she occasionally references Zenkichi’s inability to stray by her side, I don’t feel that it heavily motivates her anymore.

Really though, what would exactly be a satisfying and cohesive “alternative” for you, to the point where you’d actually agree with what I’m suggesting? I’ve always perceived a slight dependency in both Medaka and Zenkichi’s love for one another, and though Medaka’s was more prevalent throughout the early portions of the story, they’ve both matured into legitimately loving one another, though they still, of course, have a long way to go before their relationship is entirely healthy.

Basically, it’s natural for her to be disappointed and upset that the man she loves isn't accompanying her, which is why I find the supposed implications that this arc will partially focus on Medaka’s realization that she’s “fallen out of love” with Zenkichi to be unrealistic and nearly impossible. My argument, at it’s core, was pertaining to this, prior to the distraction of divergent tangents.

[Iby]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...o-bouquet-toss
Is it something that needs ANN's coverage?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by zigantz22

You still haven’t identified the dependency that was evidently shown in that scene, aside from several highly subjective inferences towards the meaning of her confession. You interpret her choosing to confess and kiss him as a furtherance of her inability to admire anything but his devotion towards her, whereas I perceive it to be considerably more than that. I see a physical attraction and a surprising realization of her romantic feelings for him. I see her rewarding his kindness with a display of affection simply due to a temporary desire for intimacy, which wouldn’t have existed if an emotional dependence remained her only reason for seeing him as an individual.

So now your argument is down to projecting a unprovable, non-sequitur physical attraction onto Medaka towards Zenkichi in that moment? How would physical attraction hold any coherency with the events at that moment in the manga at all? And is physical attraction now supposed to maintain Medaka's love for Zenkichi in the future?

Calling Medaka's romantic attraction to Zenkichi 'surprising' is a complete stretch, by the way, given her proposal to him at the age of two. When Naze and other characters said during the True Flask Plan arc that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship hadn't changed for 13 years, they really weren't kidding. Latent romantic attraction to Zenkichi has always existed in Medaka on account of what he means to her (namely, the person who would save her from her loneliness); she even had a prior confession scene in ch. 35 or 36. The reason Medaka herself never pushed for a romantic relationship was only because she retained the memory of his rejection--she thought he wasn't interested.

Can you justify calling Zenkichi's "kindness" different from Zenkichi's devotion to her?

The fact is that Medaka has always had a romantic interest in Zenkichi, borne from her immature emotional dependency on him; it was on the basis of this immature dependency that she accepted Zenkichi's proposal, and it is on the basis of this immature dependency that she's disappointed by Zenkichi's rejection now. Having degraded Medaka's character sufficiently by allowing Medaka to retain that immaturity to this point, it is time for Nishio to finally let her grow up.

My argument was that there is actual love within Medaka’s feelings for Zen, and though I could simply wait for the rest of this arc to thoroughly prove my point, I felt compelled to offer a contention to your assumption that she has no connection to him beyond a need for his presence. He’s easily the most important person in her life, due to a plethora of reasons that far extend beyond mere dependency, or, otherwise, she could have simply decided to fall for Kumagawa, since he too could have saved her from her loneliness, and yet she never has.

Haha. Of course, I have no problem either with waiting for the manga to lay it all out. My own motive for replying has only been on account of how empty and substanceless your 'contention' was. Honestly, I would've appreciated an actual logical or objective argument, but "IMO" and "Nishio couldn't possibly decide to troll this aspect of this series, despite no concrete/non-superficial in-story justification having EVER been given for it" seems to be all I've managed to get out of you.

Anyway, as far as Kumagawa, I of course do believe that he would be a fully suitable candidate for helping Medaka overcome her loneliness. However, the immediate issue to be had in this arc is only Medaka's weakness/flaw/character development, not the potential resolution to it. The reason Medaka has never considered Kumagawa seriously to date in the manga is because she (thought she) already had Zenkichi. Now she does not. While the recent development is certainly a step on the path towards Medaka x Kumagawa, there's no need to jump ahead of ourselves just yet.

[Lupus753]

I'm confused, does Zenkichi know that he rejected Medaka at age two. Because when Medaka says it, Zen doesn't say a word. Or maybe I misremembered something.