(L) Arpeggio of Blue Steel (Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio)

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

And you just proofed they have no point to sink each others.

No, I really didn't
You are obviously not aware that it is harder to deliberately incapacitate an enemy than to just finish them off.

Again, 2501 can likely not do any battle repairs at all, and while Lexington might not intend to destroy her core, I doubt she cares much for the rest of the ship or its crew.

All she has to do for 2501 is retrieve the core and bring her to a Fog harbour for a new hull. Or if she has enough spare Nanomaterial just give it to her.

I also doubt Lexington, being a carrier, will understimate the danger a submarine can be to her and go full out too rather than holding back.

And again her, the real danger isn't even Lexington herself but her destroyers. Except Lexington mods herself with serious AntiSub gear or depth charges.

[Tenzen12]

Zodark might be ass, but he is not STUPID ass. If he decided pick fight with Lexington it means he can make her run for her money at least, not to mention She probably never fought any humans after ggetting MM.

In other hand there would be no point sinking new introduced character... actually I will be very surprised once some death flag get itself actually work.

This will be tie.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

This will be tie.

Maybe.
Though Zodark is going to need to pull out a pretty genius plan, or some yet to be shown super weapon, to pull that off with any amount of believability.

Really having hard time in seeing how 2501 could do any real damage to Lexington as she is right now.
If it was just a regular carrier vs regular sub, that would be different, but these are Fog ships, so ability to dive is not limited to the sub, and carrier could have, in theory, pretty much any weapons it wants.

[Spinell]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

This will be tie.

Why stick around after Kongous fight has ended? Certainly not to graduate from Lexington university?

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by J4n1

Maybe.
Though Zodark is going to need to pull out a pretty genius plan, or some yet to be shown super weapon, to pull that off with any amount of believability.

Really having hard time in seeing how 2501 could do any real damage to Lexington as she is right now.
If it was just a regular carrier vs regular sub, that would be different, but these are Fog ships, so ability to dive is not limited to the sub, and carrier could have, in theory, pretty much any weapons it wants.

You are forgetting how submarines fights. It's hit and run tactic, it doesn't matter how big enemy or it's weapon are if they don't know where is target. Fighting off Lexington and it's escort is quite easily imaginable seeing I-401 messing with Kongou and school council.

Sure big ships can dive, but you can't expect these get decent speed or maneuverability under water not to mention it also deprivate them of fair share of weapon systems.

Sure Zodark will have to pull some smart moves, but there is no point to NOT expect t at least hat much. Idiots doesn't get to command Fog vessels.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You are forgetting how submarines fights. It's hit and run tactic, it doesn't matter how big enemy or it's weapon are if they don't know where is target. Fighting off Lexington and it's escort is quite easily imaginable seeing I-401 messing with Kongou and school council.

Sure big ships can dive, but you can't expect these get decent speed or maneuverability under water not to mention it also deprivate them of fair share of weapon systems.

On the other hand the ASW gun wasn't really believeable and failed to hit its target too.

-------
On another node there might be normal human weapons that could damage a fog ship, submarines in particular.
Namely depth charges, depending on the depth they explode.

A small submarine mounted camera could destroy an entire exploration sub if it would burst. At said depth it would have the explosive power of a depth charge.

So a depth charge at the same depth would...

[DerGilga]

An unupgraded I401, a scout and not a combat ship, managed to take down Hyuuga. 2 good torpedos are enough to sink a heavy cruiser. And by sinking I mean ripping it apart. So little U2501 should have the fire power to sink Lexington. Add to that the general incompetence of the fog and it is more than believable that Stark could win.
Add that Stark is storywise kind of Gunzou's rival/counterpart and he had his own little moment of growth a few chapters ago, I don't think he will die here.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

On another node there might be normal human weapons that could damage a fog ship, submarines in particular.

A) It was specially mentioned how the vibration torpedo is the first weapon which can actually damage a fog ship's hull.
B) Fog ships don't have to have air inside of them, making any effect based on the water pressure underwater meaningless.
So no.

[Tenzen12]

Yeah,but Fog is hardly incompetent...

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DerGilga

An unupgraded

A) It was specially mentioned how the vibration torpedo is the first weapon which can actually damage a fog ship's hull.
B) Fog ships don't have to have air inside of them, making any effect based on the water pressure underwater meaningless.
So no.

Actually I remember that it was mentioned that they could sink them with nuclear warheads too in exchange for irradiating most of the planet.
Not sure if this was in the Anime or Manga though.
However I think it was the Manga.

[DerGilga]

To be fair, I don't consider nukes to be normal weapons or that little U2501 has nukes onboard. But I agree, a direct hit on the hull with a nuke would probably sink any fog ship.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yeah,but Fog is hardly incompetent...

Once fog ships get experience they get better, see Takao vs Stark. But on average fog ships should be on the level of Kongou & co. or below, who had to be saved by little Atago. Add to that comments about I401 performance or how Musashi's system consume are large amount of her core, fog ships seem to have more systems then their core can handle. So on a pure technical level they are incompetent.
Ofcouse it could be the case that Kongou is one of the more stupid mental models and we seeing right now the worst fleet flag ship in action. But that's a point I wouldn't make or hold.

[Tenzen12]

Yet they managed sink at least two state of art stealth submarines with Japanese elites. If that's incompetence I don't even wanna know what's your opinion on humanity

Not to mention both Iona and Takao made Gunzou run for his money in theirs first battles...

Of course I myself find Kongou one of most competent Fog ship as well as antagonist antagonist in general (otherway I wouldn't use her as my avatar)

[DerGilga]

You forgot to mention that they destroyed humanity in the great sea battle. Or you can start to actually read this manga and listen to what the characters in the story say. I guess if Yamato says, that their only saving grace was their huge technological edge, this can only mean, that she is wrong and Kongou is the greatest mental model who allowed Atago to save her fat stern from kissing the bottom of the ocean.

Let's make thinks simple, if during the great sea battle humanity had technology close or on par to the fog, what would the outcome be? Still a great loss for humanity, a draw or a total defeat for the fog?

Edit: Yay all Q&A translated

[Tenzen12]

No I didn't forgot I just don't have habbit stating the obvious... unlike you. Claiming they are incompetent because they were before their evolution doesn't make any sense.

[DerGilga]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

No I didn't forgot I just don't have habbit stating the obvious... unlike you.

I'm sorry, I like to state manga facts when we disscus the manga. After all, stating obvious facts and then using logic/sound arguments to derive at a conclusion are things I like. You should know from previous a disscussion we both had that if I'm not sure what the otherside is talking about, I'll ask for clarification. For example, I still don't now why Kongou is the natural enemy of creativity or why she would beat Nagato in a direct fleet battle.

Claiming they are incompetent because they were before their evolution doesn't make any sense.

So the answer is, the fog would be totally defeated.
Also I used this as starting point for the evolution. Afterall just gaining mental models doesn't mean they are suddenly on the same level as humanity when it comes to creativity or tactics. Heck I fully acknowledge that they can grow. Afterall I said on average they are incompetent because on average they didn't have contact with humans or participated in combats we know about. But given how a single submarine can still be a rather large threat to fleet shows me, that they have still ways to go.
But of course I'm wrong and your right, because Kongou has to be great...

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DerGilga

So the answer is, the fog would be totally defeated.
Also I used this as starting point for the evolution. Afterall just gaining mental models doesn't mean they are suddenly on the same level as humanity when it comes to creativity or tactics. Heck I fully acknowledge that they can grow. Afterall I said on average they are incompetent because on average they didn't have contact with humans or participated in combats we know about. But given how a single submarine can still be a rather large threat to fleet shows me, that they have still ways to go.
But of course I'm wrong and your right, because Kongou has to be great...

Well there is still the thing that Kotono might just be Yamato's 2nd MM and there to understand humanity better.

her 'Waht about the woman I am modelled after' is pretty vague.
We don't really know when it happened, or how. Heck the real Kotono might have lived during WWII where the first fog ships where sighted for all e know.

[00Zy99]

I think that someone said that Lexington was Essex-class. Yeah, no. That's CV-2 that they're modeling (heh) here.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by 00idiot

I think that someone said that Lexington was Essex-class. Yeah, no. That's CV-2 that they're modeling (heh) here.

Nah, its the Essex Class one. Look at the bridge, she has the same bridge complex as the Yorktown class carriers, while the CV 2 has a smaller bridge but a rather huge exhaust, which she is also missing.

[DerGilga]

If you compare the two real Lexington, it seems that Lexington Fog University is modeled after the old one, e.g. the rather long funnel or lack of a diagonal runway.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DerGilga

If you compare the two real Lexington, it seems that Lexington Fog University is modeled after the old one, e.g. the rather long funnel or lack of a diagonal runway.

Are you sure about that?
Because she kinda looks like she is missing the giant, separte exhaust(I admit hard to tell from that angle).
And while she does indeed have CV2s crane she is missing the cannons close to it (Which would also be the case for the cv16)

The more gaping difference is the wider fore than backside though which would be pointing to the CV 16.(i.e. the CV's frontal star and larboard side was a bit rounded)

If you are referring to her missing diagonal flight deck on the other hand that was installed post-war

[DerGilga]

The angle is indeed bad, but I think that's a long funnel. Didn't know that the Essex class had such a large remodelling, aka Kai 2. But looking at bad pictures the WW2 variant seems to have a side elevator, which the CV2 didn't had. At least what I can tell from these bad pictures. ^^
And Prof. Lex seems to lack one. Then again, I'm no expert on this.