Several VS opinions

[Demongod86]

Let's see...ZERO system makes the Zero pilot have the think-ahead capacity of a supercomputer. On top of that, DX can't use it's OMFG PLZ STAND STILL giant cannon, and Heero actually DID try to use the TBR against Zechs in Epyon. Of course he missed, but if that thing hits (not TOO unlikely), then it's probably over.

Zero is FAR faster as it is basically a fighter jet/gundam hybrid, and DX is not really fast as he needs support (I believe the frost brothers took it to him pretty nicely).

Zero all the way.

[SNT1]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

and Heero actually DID try to use the TBR against Zechs in Epyon. Of course he missed, but if that thing hits (not TOO unlikely), then it's probably over.

He did, but it wasnt the OMFG destroy colony blast. He did use a couple of larger-than-normal-beamrifle shots, with not much charge-up time, so I guess this is another + for the Wing Zero

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But which position will give Double the greatest advantage, the greatest disadvantage, and why?

As far as the satellite cannon is concerned (I believe the power station is on the side of the moon that faces Earth, so based on that assumption):

L1
Advantage: closest to the lunar power station than both L2 and L4 as well as being on the direct line of fire.
Disadvantage: none that I could think of for now. So L1 is probably the best choice for Double X to engage in combat out of all three locations.

Now, I don't remember if the transmitted beam can be directed (and/or to what extent). But if it can, then to compare L2 and L4:

L2:
Advantage: seems to be closer than L4 to the power station.
Disadvantage: the beam has to be able to turn 180 degrees to reach L2.

L4:
Advantage: The beam doesn't have to turn as much to reach L4.
Disadvantage: It seems to be the farthest location of the three.

Now, since we are talking about super-microvave energy beam that travels quickly, the longer distance of L4 seems to be less of a disadvantage compared to the greater turning capacity needed to reach L2 since I don't even remember if the beam can bend.

So, in conclusion: L1 >> L4 > L2

Why wouldn't Double X use it's twin satellite cannon? And what advantage does the Zero system confer?

I didn't say he wouldn't use them (that is, if he even could, which I don't know at this point), just not rely on it so much, especially if the battle takes place in L4. And if the Wing Zero's pilot can utilize the Zero System effectively, then any extra help (like in choosing the best method in dealing with the opponent) is an advantage, even if it's just a slight advantage. Of course, if the pilot is not in the right state of mood, then it could turn into a big disadvantage. But I'm assuming you don't have that situation in mind for this battle.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Its not stated what range they start,

"The mobile suits start 500km from one another, and know of each other's presence."

Originally Posted by SNT1

but the TSC takes too long to charge up, leaving the DX easy picking for Heero's saber or a quick TBR counter. The TBR, like I said, suffers a little bit less from this problem since it can be used like normal beam rifles.

How long does the twin satellite cannon take to charge up? At what point does a weapon take too long to charge up, and at what point will it be usable in a duel? Besides, if the twin buster rifle is only going to be used as a pair of regular rifles, then what advantage does it confer over Double X's beam rifle?

Originally Posted by SNT1

I think I can safely assume that the DX should be right along Epyon and Nataku in terms of MS performance....

Why?

Originally Posted by SNT1

the ZERO system can easily analyze the basic capabilities of an MS upon seeing it on radar. Zechs in WZ did this against the Epyon. Might not be the key to winning, but its definitely an advantage, especially if said system is mastered.

The GW narrator says the system "eliminates the pilot's fears and doubts; making him the ultimate warrior." Take it for what it's worth; Its not just a system that feeds the pilot enemy analysis, it turns them into a ghetto NT/SEED mode of the sorts

That's just a description of the process the Zero system employs. The processes employed are insignificant compared to the effects of a weapons system. Can you quantify the effects of the Zero system? Here's a hint: wherever the pilot tries to accomplish something, and cannot even using the Zero system, then you've established an upper limit.

Originally Posted by SNT1

They probably would; aside from CE, machine cannons and vulcans are very useful in melee combat. Gundanium/AW Luna Titanium may not succumb so easily, but who knows, they can bust an MS eye with a potshot or something. Missiles I'm not so sure, as they are easily countered by beam rifles in most series (read: Tallgeese takes out Aires missiles with the dobergun, I bet TBR and DX's rifle can do the same)

I can't recall, but has Double X ever been damaged by small projectile weapons like vulcans? The missile interceptions you bring up is a red herring. Just because a few missiles are occasionally shot down hardly means that this is an effective technique against all missiles, all the time.

Originally Posted by SNT1

I have no idea which MS is faster, I'm assuming they are about equal, with WZ slightly leading because its cooler looking

This is hardly a scintillating argument; one can just as easily say that Double X is superior because blockier weapons are generally more effective ones.

Originally Posted by SNT1

which episodes to look at. Sometimes said armor get blown up by weapon A, sometimes they don't; What the pilot's conditions are; who gets lucky, which are higher performance, hmm, guess I should've worded it 'unknown/random' factors instead of random.

None of these factors are relevant in this debate. Both pilots are considered equal, and the effectiveness of a weapon is completely dependent on what can be verified.

By the way, would endurance be a factor? After all, we've seen Wing Zero run too low on juice to even use a beam saber.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Let's see...ZERO system makes the Zero pilot have the think-ahead capacity of a supercomputer.

Can you quantify the applicable effectiveness of this Zero system?

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Zero is FAR faster as it is basically a fighter jet/gundam hybrid, and DX is not really fast as he needs support (I believe the frost brothers took it to him pretty nicely).

How is Wing Zero supposedly being a fighter jet/gundam hybrid going to have an effect on space combat? Besides, at best, the Double X example just means that it's not very effective when facing superior numbers. Even if the Frost Brothers' Gundams were faster, that still has no bearing on whether Wing Zero is faster.

Originally Posted by monstert

As far as the satellite cannon is concerned (I believe the power station is on the side of the moon that faces Earth, so based on that assumption):

The moon base has to face Earth, otherwise there would be no need to establish a LoS in order to charge up.

Originally Posted by monstert

L1
Advantage: closest to the lunar power station than both L2 and L4 as well as being on the direct line of fire.

The L1 point is much closer to the Moon than to Earth (about 61,500 km vs. 320,500km), and the effects are commensurate.

Originally Posted by monstert

Now, I don't remember if the transmitted beam can be directed (and/or to what extent). But if it can, then to compare L2 and L4:

Again, the show does not support a redirected microwave beam from the moonbase.

Originally Posted by monstert

Now, since we are talking about super-microvave energy beam that travels quickly, the longer distance of L4 seems to be less of a disadvantage compared to the greater turning capacity needed to reach L2 since I don't even remember if the beam can bend.

The L4 Lagrange point is rather large, but it's roughly the same distance from the Moon that the Earth is.

Originally Posted by monstert

Now, since we are talking about super-microvave energy beam that travels quickly, the longer distance of L4 seems to be less of a disadvantage compared to the greater turning capacity needed to reach L2 since I don't even remember if the beam can bend.

Does the speed of the microwave beam make the distance altogether insignificant? Remember that the beam, and all communications will move at the speed of light.

Originally Posted by monstert

I didn't say he wouldn't use them (that is, if he even could, which I don't know at this point), just not rely on it so much, especially if the battle takes place in L4.

While the twin satellite cannon isn't something that one would want to use constantly without support, does that truly preclude it from being used at close (within 1 km) ranges?

Originally Posted by monstert

And if the Wing Zero's pilot can utilize the Zero System effectively, then any extra help (like in choosing the best method in dealing with the opponent) is an advantage, even if it's just a slight advantage. Of course, if the pilot is not in the right state of mood, then it could turn into a big disadvantage. But I'm assuming you don't have that situation in mind for this battle.

I'm assuming that the pilot can use the Zero system to its potential. What I'm mostly interested in is finding out exactly how much of an advantage this is.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Again, the show does not support a redirected microwave beam from the moonbase.

Well then I suppose that, out of the three locations you specified, L1 is the only viable option if Double X wants to use its twin satellite cannon.

Does the speed of the microwave beam make the distance altogether insignificant? Remember that the beam, and all communications will move at the speed of light.

I don't know about the speed of light since you can see it coming. But either way, that just proves my point.

While the twin satellite cannon isn't something that one would want to use constantly without support, does that truly preclude it from being used at close (within 1 km) ranges?

If the battle takes place at L1, then sure, Double X can try to use it. But it would seem impossible at L2 and L4 given what you stated earlier.

What I'm mostly interested in is finding out exactly how much of an advantage this is.

Since I don't know the full potential of the human mind, I can't answer that question.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by monstert

I don't know about the speed of light since you can see it coming. But either way, that just proves my point.

Either it's a microwave beam, in which case it moves at the speed of light, or it's a technobabble beam with unknown properties. How does this prove your point?

Originally Posted by monstert

If the battle takes place at L1, then sure, Double X can try to use it. But it would seem impossible at L2 and L4 given what you stated earlier.

While it's obvious that L2 is on the other side of the Moon, why would it be impossible to establish a LoS from L4 to the moonbase?

Originally Posted by monstert

Since I don't know the full potential of the human mind, I can't answer that question.

What does the "full potential of the human mind" have to do with anything? The capability of the Zero system shouldn't be based on what it can theoretically do, but what it can be verified to do.

[SNT1]

Hm, I don't think I can answer the questions any further and more detailed than what I gave; I gave my 2 centavos on the general advantages and disadvantages.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Either it's a microwave beam, in which case it moves at the speed of light, or it's a technobabble beam with unknown properties. How does this prove your point?

Let's backtrack:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Either it's a microwave beam, in which case it moves at the speed of light, or it's a technobabble beam with unknown properties. How does this prove your point?

See, my original point was that L4's distance is less of a disadvantage than L2's general location. And if indeed the beam travels at the speed of light, that proves my point that distance is less of a factor. And even if it doesn't travel at the speed of light, it still travels very fast.

While it's obvious that L2 is on the other side of the Moon, why would it be impossible to establish a LoS from L4 to the moonbase?

I've been meaning to ask you: What's LoS? Anyways, as I said earlier, I don't know the range that the satellite beam can reach. It's probably able to cover a good portion of the Earth surface that faces the moon. But L4 is way out to the side, so maybe impossible is not the right word, but there is still less certainty. If the satellite can cover 180 degrees, then for sure L4's usefulness can probably match L1's (assuming the distance has less effect).

What does the "full potential of the human mind" have to do with anything? The capability of the Zero system shouldn't be based on what it can theoretically do, but what it can be verified to do.

It can be verified to give advantage to the pilot who can use it to its potential. How much of an advantage? Well that depends on the pilot and his/her mind.

[Demongod86]

Can I quantify the effectiveness of the ZERO system? Sure...

An average human being can take an exam consisting of 30 questions in one hour. Now, give him the processing and raw computing power of a supercomputer and that may very well jump to 100000 questions in one hour. Get it?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by monstert

See, my original point was that L4's distance is less of a disadvantage than L2's general location. And if indeed the beam travels at the speed of light, that proves my point that distance is less of a factor. And even if it doesn't travel at the speed of light, it still travels very fast.

Ah... I see. I'm trying to see if you can figure out how the propagation rate of the microwave beam affects the effectiveness of the twin satellite cannon given the ranges involved.

Originally Posted by monstert

I've been meaning to ask you: What's LoS? Anyways, as I said earlier, I don't know the range that the satellite beam can reach. It's probably able to cover a good portion of the Earth surface that faces the moon. But L4 is way out to the side, so maybe impossible is not the right word, but there is still less certainty. If the satellite can cover 180 degrees, then for sure L4's usefulness can probably match L1's (assuming the distance has less effect).

LoS stands for line-of-sight; whether an observer has a clear path to an object.

The arc of the microwave transmitter is probably much higher than you're suggesting. Garrod managed to use it when he was in space near the transmitter; this suggests a probable coverage of at least 40ﾟ. With a coverage of 60ﾟ in all directions, the base would have been able to transmit to most of the points in the Earth sphere as long as LoS can be established, including the L4 and L5 points.

Originally Posted by monstert

It can be verified to give advantage to the pilot who can use it to its potential. How much of an advantage? Well that depends on the pilot and his/her mind.

Why would it be dependent on the pilot's mind? Wouldn't the advantage the Zero system can confer be dependent on what the Zero system can do? Again, I'm much less concerned about what its theoretical potential is compared to what it's been shown to be capable of.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

An average human being can take an exam consisting of 30 questions in one hour. Now, give him the processing and raw computing power of a supercomputer and that may very well jump to 100000 questions in one hour. Get it?

So... you're trying to establish that the combat capability of a system is somehow dependent on how quickly it can handle test questions. Somehow, I don't think that that's true at all. Moreover, I'm uncertain as to why you think that the Zero system is good at taking test questions in the first place.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Ah... I see. I'm trying to see if you can figure out how the propagation rate of the microwave beam affects the effectiveness of the twin satellite cannon given the ranges involved.

If there's any effect to the cannon, it would probably be on the time it takes to charge the cannon.

the base would have been able to transmit to most of the points in the Earth sphere as long as LoS can be established, including the L4 and L5 points.

Hmm...maybe you're right, I don't know.

Why would it be dependent on the pilot's mind? Wouldn't the advantage the Zero system can confer be dependent on what the Zero system can do? Again, I'm much less concerned about what its theoretical potential is compared to what it's been shown to be capable of.

Well, from the description I got from MAHQ:

the cockpit's "Zero System," which allowed the pilot's mind to interface directly with the Gundam's combat computer. Although the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear, it appeared to operate by "sampling" the pilot's thoughts and, combining them with current combat data, presented the pilot with various alternate outcomes. Thus, depending on the pilot's mood, the Zero System could tell him/her how to achieve total victory... or decisive defeat.

It would seem that what it can do is highly dependent on the user's mind.

So, going back to your earlier statement:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm assuming that the pilot can use the Zero system to its potential. What I'm mostly interested in is finding out exactly how much of an advantage this is.

If you really want to know that, then the only answer is it depends on the user like any other tool, except even more so in the case of the Zero System. Otherwise, if you only want what it's been shown to be capable of, then all I know is that it gives a definite advantage on people who can utilize it properly.

[Demongod86]

The test questions was meant to show that the ZERO system amplifies the raw power of the computing mind. You know how computers can make 10000 decisions per second as opposed to a human taking 3 seconds for 1?

That's what I'm talking about.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by monstert

"the cockpit's "Zero System," which allowed the pilot's mind to interface directly with the Gundam's combat computer. Although the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear, it appeared to operate by "sampling" the pilot's thoughts and, combining them with current combat data, presented the pilot with various alternate outcomes. Thus, depending on the pilot's mood, the Zero System could tell him/her how to achieve total victory... or decisive defeat."

It would seem that what it can do is highly dependent on the user's mind.

There's two main problems with looking at analyzing the Zero system in this manner: the first is that it just doesn't make any sense to attempt to determine its capablities by analyzing its mechanisms. After all, if you want to find out how fast a race car can go, you're much better off testing it on a track than by looking at the theoretical output of its engine.

Moreover, the MAHQ description states that "the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear", which means that it's not a very authoritative reference in this case.

Originally Posted by monstert

If you really want to know that, then the only answer is it depends on the user like any other tool, except even more so in the case of the Zero System. Otherwise, if you only want what it's been shown to be capable of, then all I know is that it gives a definite advantage on people who can utilize it properly.

The second problem with this approach is that the human factor is generally discounted when analyzing a machine's capabilities. The reason for this is that the user is always important, but focusing on his abilities is still sort of irrelevant. Using my race car example, its maximum speed is not necessarily the performance that a three-year old boy as a driver would be capable of achieving. However, it's silly to have to take that into account. Instead we simply focus on what the machine is capable of doing. In the case of the Zero system, it's quite possible to judge what it can do based on how it was employed in the show. Realistically speaking, it's not really any more dependent on its pilot than any other system is.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The test questions was meant to show that the ZERO system amplifies the raw power of the computing mind. You know how computers can make 10000 decisions per second as opposed to a human taking 3 seconds for 1?

Not only is there nothing to suggest that the Zero system does any kind of amplification (what the heck does that mean anyways?), but there's no real connection between computational power and combat capabilities. Otherwise the best pilots would also be automatically the smartest people as well.

As an aside, the human brain is estimated to be capable of processing instructions much faster than the fastest supercomputers today. The reason computers do certain applications faster and more accurately is because human brains and computers work very differently.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There's two main problems with looking at analyzing the Zero system in this manner: the first is that it just doesn't make any sense to attempt to determine its capablities by analyzing its mechanisms. After all, if you want to find out how fast a race car can go, you're much better off testing it on a track than by looking at the theoretical output of its engine.

Moreover, the MAHQ description states that "the exact nature of the Zero System's operation is unclear", which means that it's not a very authoritative reference in this case.


The second problem with this approach is that the human factor is generally discounted when analyzing a machine's capabilities. The reason for this is that the user is always important, but focusing on his abilities is still sort of irrelevant. Using my race car example, its maximum speed is not necessarily the performance that a three-year old boy as a driver would be capable of achieving. However, it's silly to have to take that into account. Instead we simply focus on what the machine is capable of doing. In the case of the Zero system, it's quite possible to judge what it can do based on how it was employed in the show. Realistically speaking, it's not really any more dependent on its pilot than any other system is.

The difference is, whereas a race car's job is to be able to drive quickly through a course, the Zero System's job is to interface with the pilot. (We may not be clear on how it does this, but that's basically what it does.) So there's a better understanding of how a car is supposed to perform compared to a Zero System. And another thing, race cars can (and should be) adjusted to each race. While with the Zero System, if you can't use it properly, you change the pilot and nothing else that I know of besides not using it. Thus, the Zero System puts more emphasis on its user than most tools, including race cars.

[Derringer]

Uh...only 1 of you guys has actually picked an MS to win. What the heck?

You've all just been nitpicking at flaws in the other's arguments and not the actual combat.

TBR can destroy the DX if it gets a hit. TSC can destroy the WZ if it gets a hit. Both are equipped with 2 beam sabers and some sort of machine gun apparatus. The WZ has the advantage because of the Zero system. Based on Trent's analysis and collection data within the context of the show, it does enhance a pilots ability to fight. We see an OZ grunt performing waaaay over everyone else in the Zero's simulations. The DX has no performance enhancing effects.

Gundanium is not only ridiculously tough, but it's also undetectable by radar and most conventional detection methods (mentioned numerous times in Gundam Wing). The DX is made from Luna Titanium, which we know nothing about or whether it's the same Luna Titanium from the UC, which has is literally nothing compared to the unstoppable power of Gundanium.

The Wing Zero has the upper advantage, but it would be nice to have some solid performance specs for the DX since we don't know its full thruster output. It is "ligher" than the WZ though.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by monstert

The difference is, whereas a race car's job is to be able to drive quickly through a course, the Zero System's job is to interface with the pilot. (We may not be clear on how it does this, but that's basically what it does.) So there's a better understanding of how a car is supposed to perform compared to a Zero System. And another thing, race cars can (and should be) adjusted to each race.

I don't think that the difference is so great (for our purposes) between the Zero system and a car subsystem. The Zero system is designed to improve a mobile suit's capabilities, so it's relatively easy to test one both with it on and with it off. Obviously, we can't exactly do that, but it's still possible to examine what Wing Zero is capable of with the Zero system activated, which should be sufficient for this debate. The exact mechanism for how it works isn't all that important.

Originally Posted by monstert

While with the Zero System, if you can't use it properly, you change the pilot and nothing else that I know of besides not using it. Thus, the Zero System puts more emphasis on its user than most tools, including race cars.

It's no different from any other military hardware; if the first user can't employ it properly, then you simply replace him with one that can. About the only thing unusual about the Zero system from most prototype hardware in this regard is that there may be fewer people who can handle it. This may speak against using the Zero system in wide release, but that wasn't really at issue.

Originally Posted by Derringer

TBR can destroy the DX if it gets a hit. TSC can destroy the WZ if it gets a hit. Both are equipped with 2 beam sabers and some sort of machine gun apparatus.

Double X also has a missile system and additional beam weapons.

Originally Posted by Derringer

The WZ has the advantage because of the Zero system. Based on Trent's analysis and collection data within the context of the show, it does enhance a pilots ability to fight. We see an OZ grunt performing waaaay over everyone else in the Zero's simulations. The DX has no performance enhancing effects.

All things being equal, even a small advantage is sufficient to give a side an edge. However, all things aren't equal in this debate: we haven't yet figured out the importance of armor, the mobile suits' speeds, sensors, or any of that. Moreover, the advantage conferred by the Zero system is very much in question.

Originally Posted by Derringer

Gundanium is not only ridiculously tough, but it's also undetectable by radar and most conventional detection methods (mentioned numerous times in Gundam Wing). The DX is made from Luna Titanium, which we know nothing about or whether it's the same Luna Titanium from the UC, which has is literally nothing compared to the unstoppable power of Gundanium.

While Gundarium being invisible to radar is a nice feature, does Double X rely solely on radar for its sensors? Again, the name of the armor is meaningless; what's important is what that armor can do. While Gundarium is proof against some weapons, will it necessarily be able to withstand Double X's weapons?

Originally Posted by Derringer

The Wing Zero has the upper advantage, but it would be nice to have some solid performance specs for the DX since we don't know its full thruster output. It is "ligher" than the WZ though.

Being lighter means nothing. What's importance is the thrust-to-mass ratio. Since these figures aren't provided, it's necessary to derive them from the shows themselves.

As a side note, while the listed empty masses suggest that the combat masses are also very low, they are probably in the neighborhood of 50 tons (or greater) with a combat load. Otherwise, the Wing and Gundam X mobile suits would just float in water.

[Derringer]

Hey. Pick a side. You're destroying the fun this debate by just picking apart the arguments of both sides.

Can we really count those extra handheld weapons if they never appeared in the show? They were leftovers that Bandai decided to put into kit form. Otherwise, we'd never know they had existed. However, I doubt the beam javelin and double beam saber handle would make much of a difference.

How is the advantage of the Zero System in question? It enhances the performance of the pilot. Given that both pilots are of high proficiency, one person has extra help while the other doesn't.

Gundanium is about god damned invincible. It takes numerous beam shots to be able to damage it. I merely pointed that the material also has the other properties. The Luna Titanium in Gundam X is damageable by a lot of stuff, but is still pretty god damned strong, though not as strong as portrayed in Wing. Well let's see here. All throughout Wing, the bad guys always had a horrendous time finding out where the Gundams were hiding since they were invisible to almost all forms of detection. It wasn't until they were literally in view of their cameras or had their heat sources form the thrusters up could they be engaged. There's is no such problem stated in Gundam X. The Virsago and Ashtaron were detected numerous times by the Frieden, while the gundams in Wing were already getting first blood before someone spotted them. In the case of interference with the cameras, sensory detection would be most helpful.

Being lighter means nothing. What's importance is the thrust-to-mass ratio. Since these figures aren't provided, it's necessary to derive them from the shows themselves.

Well that's why I pointed out that it would be nice to know the mass. But being lighter does affect the ratio. We just need the thrust number.

[SNT1]

Wing Zero has 88150 kg, says MAHQ WZC profiles...

Really, the only things we can derive from this matchup is how much their weapons deal damage, and how good the mobile suits are, based on the show. Trying to derive a number from an animation (inconsistent ones at that) is both stupid and useless.

Take Hamrabi for example, suck-ass on paper yet a monster with Yazan @helm. Food for thought.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think that the difference is so great (for our purposes) between the Zero system and a car subsystem. The Zero system is designed to improve a mobile suit's capabilities, so it's relatively easy to test one both with it on and with it off. Obviously, we can't exactly do that, but it's still possible to examine what Wing Zero is capable of with the Zero system activated, which should be sufficient for this debate. The exact mechanism for how it works isn't all that important.

Considering that, other than its twin satellite cannon, Double X isn't so different than most high performance mobile suit, I was willing to say that the Zero System do give an advantage for Wing Zero. However, the Zero System was never used against Double X. Therefore, trying to quantify how much of an advantage the Zero System gives, in my opinion, is not as easy as you're tring to make it out to be. Especially since most of the mobile suits in Wing were easily defeated anyway even without the use of the Zero System.

It's no different from any other military hardware; if the first user can't employ it properly, then you simply replace him with one that can. About the only thing unusual about the Zero system from most prototype hardware in this regard is that there may be fewer people who can handle it. This may speak against using the Zero system in wide release, but that wasn't really at issue.

Which is why I believe most military developer won't give so much effort in producing such type of system unless they felt the advantage it gives is definitely worth the effort of finding the right person to use it. And if such is the case, then I doubt they would be please with anything largely less than the theoretical capabilities of the system. And since there was indication (as far as I remember) of neither the Zero System not performing anywhere near its theoretical capabilities nor of anyone using it to its limits or beyond, then what's shown in the anime isn't really enough in describing exactly how much of an advantage the Zero System can give. To really gauge the advantage of using it, we would need more information about the Zero System, which we don't have (as far as I know).

[M_Flores]

On the Zero System arguement, IMO, the System itself may give the pilot an advantage, but it doesnt necessarily make Wing Zero any faster, agile, durable, stronger or more powerful than it was before anyway.

What if we assume that XX's pilot is a super genius mathematician battle calculator who is also not afraid of death and is never distracted (something like say... a Coordinator)?
The effectiveness of the Zero System IMO depends on the pilot and is mainly focused on the pilot rather than the actual MS performance.
As said, the Zero System doesnt make the suit faster or give the TBR more power or anything - it just makes the pilot want to kill you in the best way possible that the MS can.
Remember, there are also some things that the Zero System can't predict (as Heero kinda implied in EW).
So unless we're taking into account the pilots, I'd say the Zero System isn't too much of an advantage.

If I were to pick, I'd say Wing Zero. Because of the cheap tactic of being able to tuck the TBR under the shield while drawing out the beam saber - this is, IMO, an effective tactic because the user can fight a close combat battle while having the option of taking a quick pot shot at the enemy from a ready stance, plus the shield also covers and protects the rifle to some extent.
I haven't seen much of XX in action, but I assume that the TSC is a little slower and probably has to stand still to fire (I have absolutely no evidence to back this up though), while Zero has seen to do decent maneuvering while firing the rifle.