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Triple_R · 2015-05-30, 23:07

Perhaps fittingly, I've long been tsundere towards tsunderes.

I felt I had some understanding of them, but I couldn't honestly say that I get tsunderes. Until, perhaps, very recently. Thanks to one very special character - Love Live!'s Maki Nishikino

Before continuing, you should know that this post will contain some slight implied Love Live! and UBW spoilers.

Maki is the first tsundere that completely resonated with me, as a tsundere. In other words, I could completely get why she's a tsundere, and why "tsundere" is appealing to many anime fans. Specifically, Maki did slightly abrasive shy denialism to complete perfection. At no point did I feel like her more abrasive moments could be taken at complete face value, figuratively speaking. I say "figuratively speaking", because Maki's face never failed to betray the desires and attachments behind the moments of slight abrasiveness.

But as much as Maki resonated with me like this, I wasn't sure how much importance to give to this, since Love Live! has no major male characters of note. Maki wasn't tsundere towards a guy, so maybe she's something of an unusual case within the archetype?

But then I watched UBW, and saw much the same with Rin Tohsaka as I saw with Maki. Rin Tohsaka's interactions with Shirou resonated with me in much the same way as Maki's interactions with the rest of μ's did. In both cases, the shy denialism consistently came across well.

One thing I notice with both Rin and Maki - Very minimal violence towards the people they like (what violence Rin gets into of this nature has a practical and understandable motivation behind it). And they don't run "hot and cold" so much as they have a consistent temperament of slight abrasiveness. They're more saucy than downright nasty, you could say. They're quite different from what I'm use to seeing with the KugRie tsundere.

So this has me wondering - Are tsunderes shifting a bit? Is it now more about shy denialism and consistently slightly abrasive temperament, then violent mood swings and/or actual violence?

To be fair, I watch very little harem anime, and I'd imagine that this anime genre is where a lot of tsunderes continue to show up. So it's possible that Rin and Maki are outliers, even recently. So that's one reason why I put up this thread. I'd like to get the takes of other anime fans based on a wider range of anime.

Is what I'm seeing in Rin and Maki reflective of modern tsunderes in general? Or are modern tsunderes more KugRie-esque?

Also feel free to discuss what "tsundere" means to you. What you think are the most important elements of the character type. And which tsunderes you like the best.

Archon_Wing · 2015-05-30, 23:55

I'm not sure if Rin thinks it's a recent trend though...

Images

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I'm not really sure if it should be considered a recent development since the moderate tsundere has always been around; it's just the louder and dumber ones became more popular for a bit. So to say they've been displaced isn't as accurate saying things might just be stirring back to normal... thanks to some outliers

Triple_R · 2015-05-31, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I'm not sure if Rin thinks it's a recent trend though...

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

lol

I probably should have mentioned this in the OP, but I liked Rin in UBW 2015 more than I did Rin in Deen's F/SN. Part of that is probably a reflection of the particular VN route being adapted. Part of that could simply be Deen vs. ufotable.

Deen's Rin was a moderate tsundere, though, you're right about that.

Quote:

I'm not really sure if it should be considered a recent development since the moderate tsundere has always been around; it's just the louder and dumber ones became more popular for a bit. So to say they've been displaced isn't as accurate saying things might just be stirring back to normal... thanks to some outliers

That might be a good way of putting it, yeah.

Archon_Wing · 2015-05-31, 00:09

Hmm, I don't think Rin was that much different of a person in the DEEN version (Yea, DEEN sucks; they fucked up lots of stuff, don't come defending your precious source material plz; we have enough of that.). It probably is the focus on her character that makes the difference. But I'm glad you may appreciate my pic highlighting her appeal.

The pendulum has swung in the other direction, I guess. Maybe we should thank Kirino?

***relentlessflame*** · 2015-05-31, 00:10

I think there are many different variations of tsundere characters, and I don't know that Maki is so particularly unique in that sense (though I like her character). Fate/stay night is actually a rather old work now, so Rin isn't "new" in any sense either. I think it's more that you're seeing them in a different light because the violent/temperamental side isn't as pronounced in these particular characters. But fundamentally, the whole archetype revolves around two basic concepts: pride and deflection (or dishonesty), and those two elements are as common to Kirino and Louise as they are to Maki and Rin. They all have their different pride points that make them slightly stand-off-ish, and they all have abrasive habits to deflect their true feelings (usually to cover their embarrassment). Then it's just a question of how hot-tempered they are, and how they choose to act out their feelings.

The biggest problem people generally have with tsundere characters is because they can't forgive them for the way they act. But the thing "you're supposed to focus on" is how they really feel beneath the façade. This contradiction between their inner feelings and their outward actions (and the fact that you, as the reader/viewer are "in" on the truth) is what makes them "moe". It creates a sort of expectation and pent-up demand that manifests itself in those moments when the two sides finally align, whether the other characters see it, or only we do as the readers/viewers.

Darthtabby · 2015-05-31, 01:40

I'm having trouble thinking of many hyper violent tsunderes in recent series, but that could partly be a reflection of the shows I watch (and the ones that stick with me as well). Not so violent tsunderes have been around for a while though. As a Mai-HiME fan, I'd cite Mai Tokiha as an example of a tsundere who was generally non violent.

ninjastarforcex · 2015-05-31, 02:31

tsundere become bigger bitch. e.g erina

2015-05-30, 23:07	Link #1
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	Has the Tsundere character type shifted a bit? Perhaps fittingly, I've long been tsundere towards tsunderes. I felt I had some understanding of them, but I couldn't honestly say that I get tsunderes. Until, perhaps, very recently. Thanks to one very special character - Love Live!'s Maki Nishikino Before continuing, you should know that this post will contain some slight implied Love Live! and UBW spoilers. Maki is the first tsundere that completely resonated with me, as a tsundere. In other words, I could completely get why she's a tsundere, and why "tsundere" is appealing to many anime fans. Specifically, Maki did slightly abrasive shy denialism to complete perfection. At no point did I feel like her more abrasive moments could be taken at complete face value, figuratively speaking. I say "figuratively speaking", because Maki's face never failed to betray the desires and attachments behind the moments of slight abrasiveness. But as much as Maki resonated with me like this, I wasn't sure how much importance to give to this, since Love Live! has no major male characters of note. Maki wasn't tsundere towards a guy, so maybe she's something of an unusual case within the archetype? But then I watched UBW, and saw much the same with Rin Tohsaka as I saw with Maki. Rin Tohsaka's interactions with Shirou resonated with me in much the same way as Maki's interactions with the rest of μ's did. In both cases, the shy denialism consistently came across well. One thing I notice with both Rin and Maki - Very minimal violence towards the people they like (what violence Rin gets into of this nature has a practical and understandable motivation behind it). And they don't run "hot and cold" so much as they have a consistent temperament of slight abrasiveness. They're more saucy than downright nasty, you could say. They're quite different from what I'm use to seeing with the KugRie tsundere. So this has me wondering - Are tsunderes shifting a bit? Is it now more about shy denialism and consistently slightly abrasive temperament, then violent mood swings and/or actual violence? To be fair, I watch very little harem anime, and I'd imagine that this anime genre is where a lot of tsunderes continue to show up. So it's possible that Rin and Maki are outliers, even recently. So that's one reason why I put up this thread. I'd like to get the takes of other anime fans based on a wider range of anime. Is what I'm seeing in Rin and Maki reflective of modern tsunderes in general? Or are modern tsunderes more KugRie-esque? Also feel free to discuss what "tsundere" means to you. What you think are the most important elements of the character type. And which tsunderes you like the best. __________________

2015-05-31, 00:10	Link #5
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	I think there are many different variations of tsundere characters, and I don't know that Maki is so particularly unique in that sense (though I like her character). Fate/stay night is actually a rather old work now, so Rin isn't "new" in any sense either. I think it's more that you're seeing them in a different light because the violent/temperamental side isn't as pronounced in these particular characters. But fundamentally, the whole archetype revolves around two basic concepts: pride and deflection (or dishonesty), and those two elements are as common to Kirino and Louise as they are to Maki and Rin. They all have their different pride points that make them slightly stand-off-ish, and they all have abrasive habits to deflect their true feelings (usually to cover their embarrassment). Then it's just a question of how hot-tempered they are, and how they choose to act out their feelings. The biggest problem people generally have with tsundere characters is because they can't forgive them for the way they act. But the thing "you're supposed to focus on" is how they really feel beneath the façade. This contradiction between their inner feelings and their outward actions (and the fact that you, as the reader/viewer are "in" on the truth) is what makes them "moe". It creates a sort of expectation and pent-up demand that manifests itself in those moments when the two sides finally align, whether the other characters see it, or only we do as the readers/viewers. __________________ [...]

2015-05-31, 02:31	Link #7
ninjastarforcex Read My Sig :) Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Read My Sig :)	tsundere become bigger bitch. e.g erina __________________ ~Anime Songs Chord~ latest update 1 September 2016

2015-05-31, 01:40	Link #6
Darthtabby Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	I'm having trouble thinking of many hyper violent tsunderes in recent series, but that could partly be a reflection of the shows I watch (and the ones that stick with me as well). Not so violent tsunderes have been around for a while though. As a Mai-HiME fan, I'd cite Mai Tokiha as an example of a tsundere who was generally non violent.