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[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

why ?
fair play ?
good sportsmanship ?

It's not a game. Just because one palestinian lobs a rocket at your house, doesn't make that palestinian's neighbour guilty.

It's an individual act, but Israel uses collective punishment (like the blockade...).

It's not a matter of winning and losing, but of living and dying.

It's impossible for Israel to ever "win" with the victory conditions it has set itself.

also, we don't kill indiscriminately.
even Hamas admits that most of the casualties in Cast Lead were militants.
so either we're careful about who we shoot, or we're just really really lucky.

Hamas claims everyone in Gaza is a militant and on their side, so of course they'd say that. Is the entire population of Gaza a justifiable target?

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you'd be amazed at the stupidity that people would be willing to fight and die for.

Nationalism. But hey, that's present on both sides...

the Israeli government isn't the government of the Palestinians.

But the Israeli government holds ultimate power over the Palestinians. What government the Palestinian territories (remember, not a full sovereign state) has either radical militants, or corrupt kleptocrats. Heck, the PA is dependent on Israel for collecting it's taxes, and the Palestinian economy(such as it is) is dependent on the Israeli economy.

Right now, Palestine is Israel's problem.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you'd be amazed at the stupidity that people would be willing to fight and die for.


what does a situation between people and their own governments have to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict ?

the Israeli government isn't the government of the Palestinians.

Yeah, well, we have minor grievances with our neighbors' governments, too. You don't see us blowing ourselves up over it, do you?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Hamas claims everyone in Gaza is a militant and on their side, so of course they'd say that. Is the entire population of Gaza a justifiable target?

wait... what ?
their entire strategy is dependent on framing the people of Gaza as poor oppressed sods getting killed for no reason by Israel.
they don't claim that every Gazen is a militant at all (and it would be counter productive to do so).

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, well, we have minor grievances with our neighbors' governments, too. You don't see us blowing ourselves up over it, do you?

guess you've got a culture that discourages this kind of behavior.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

wait... what ?
their entire strategy is dependent on framing the people of Gaza as poor oppressed sods getting killed for no reason by Israel.
they don't claim that every Gazen is a militant at all (and it would be counter productive to do so).

I think they would frame the people of Gaza as being united in their (IE Hamas's) struggly against the "evil infidels" etc. and so they would all die to destroy Israel.

So they would define everyone in Gaza as being allied with their movement.

So if being afiliated with Hamas = being a militant (which most would agree with), then Hamas believe everyone in Gaza is a militant. Of course, they call themselves Freedom fighters and jihadists. Not militants.

They try and inflate their standing in Gaza. Of course they'd also argue that Israel killed all the innocent women and children etc. etc.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think they would frame the people of Gaza as being united in their (IE Hamas's) struggly against the "evil infidels" etc. and so they would all die to destroy Israel.

you think wrong.
united, yes.
but not in that sense.

So they would define everyone in Gaza as being allied with their movement.

they don't define them as militants/combatants.

So if being afiliated with Hamas = being a militant (which most would agree with), then Hamas believe everyone in Gaza is a militant. Of course, they call themselves Freedom fighters and jihadists. Not militants.

again, no.
Hamas is more then just a militant group.

They try and inflate their standing in Gaza. Of course they'd also argue that Israel killed all the innocent women and children etc. etc.

no, they try to gain world public support by claiming Israel killed innocent women and children.
they try to inflate their own standing by pretending to be big tough manly men to stand their ground, and fight and die to protect Gaza against Israel.

which is BTW the reason why they finally admitted that most of the casualties were militants.
internal pressure from people in Gaza, who (rightfully) called them chickens#!ts who play with fire (launch rockets at Israel) and then run away and hide when the fire gets out of hand (Israel hits back).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Darkbeat

Saying "eliminate their base of support" is not a valid answer nor workable solution to the continued rise of extremist militant Islam and the middle east conflict, especially for Israel. I can't imagine why you believe it would be.

Since it's pretty much been the standard in how to do an effective counter-insurgency throughout history...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Haak

Since it's pretty much been the standard in how to do an effective counter-insurgency throughout history...

standard being the key word here.
its only effective when its applied to the correct situation.
it wouldn't have worked against the V.C for example.

[ganbaru]

Iran military claim to had shoots down U.S RQ170 drone
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7B30CQ20111204

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

standard being the key word here.
its only effective when its applied to the correct situation.
it wouldn't have worked against the V.C for example.

Perhaps it wouldn't have worked against the VC.

But of course the VC ended winning so...


In other news:

Putin's United Russia party suffers poll setback

Polls for Russian state TV and the state-backed polling organisation showed United Russia got about 48.5% of the vote, down from 64% in 2007.

Things are looking bad for Putin. 2 weeks ago, Putin was also Booed at a wrestling event. Unfortunately for him it was live on TV...

Here's a video of the live broadcast.

You can hear the booing even more clearly in this video

Russia has an interesting road ahead.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

standard being the key word here.
its only effective when its applied to the correct situation.
it wouldn't have worked against the V.C for example.

Um...you mind elaborating on that one? All I've heard about the Vietnam war is that the Americans generally failed that one, their counterinsurgency tactics failed because they alienated the polulation and that Stuart Herrington (a veteran of Army counterinsurgency operations in the Vietnam War) went to Iraq and basically emphasised that standard of counter insurgency...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Haak

Um...you mind elaborating on that one?

I'll give you the cliff-notes.
you can't convince people who hate your very existence to embrace you by being "nice" to them.
people (Palestinians included) aren't dogs, and they won't be eating out of the palm of your hands just because you offer them some dog food.

winning hearts and minds doesn't work in this case, because there is no way to win the heart and mind of someone who thinks of you as a thief that sits on what he considers to be his land.
hence, we don't bother trying.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Perhaps it wouldn't have worked against the VC.

But of course the VC ended winning so...

your point ?

[Ithekro]

If there is no point in trying, then stop the pretense of trying.
If the Israelis feel there is no point, then way bother with it at all?

What is Israel doing to end the situation?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If there is no point in trying, then stop the pretense of trying. If the Israelis feel there is no point, then way bother with it at all?

when was the last time any serious negotiations process took place ?
believe it or not, but Israelis for the most part already accepted that we are going to be doing this stupid dance forever.

What is Israel doing to end the situation?

nothing.
just like we're doing nothing to end the hostilities between us and Syria, or Lebanon, or Iran, or Iraq.
we're not so arrogant as to believe ourselves capable of single handedly changing the middle east, and so we've stopped trying.

right now, we're on a holding pattern given the whole "Arab spring" thing.
we'll see what the future brings.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

I'll give you the cliff-notes.
you can't convince people who hate your very existence to embrace you by being "nice" to them.
people (Palestinians included) aren't dogs, and they won't be eating out of the palm of your hands just because you offer them some dog food.

winning hearts and minds doesn't work in this case, because there is no way to win the heart and mind of someone who thinks of you as a thief that sits on what he considers to be his land.
hence, we don't bother trying.

You can divide and conquer. There will be die hards that won't ever compromise, but you can target those who will, and build up their power. When you break up the united front, the whole thing shatters.

So what Israel needs to do is meet the practical everyday concerns of Palestinian arabs including:

* More meaningful political representation
* Removal of checkpoints, that take hours to cross
* Greater economic opportunity
* More Farming land
* Removal of systematic discrimination in Israeli public bodies.
* Halting of all Settlement construction
* Dismantling of all recently constructed settlements

These are measures that don't require any Palestinian participation. With those kinds of reforms, a substantial minority of Arabs can be won over, and the narrative can be brought back under control. And they don't require Israel to give much up bar "honour".

For instance, if parcels of Farming land were redistributed to dispossessed Palestinians (who were previously farmers), then what excuse do Palestinians have for demanding land. Israel can say right back "apply to such and such a program, and you can recieve land etc." In return for the land, the Palestinian might have certain obligations etc.

The problem is that the current israeli administration is dead set on resettling the entirety of "Judea and Samaria" with Jews. It's doing it slowly, but that's their end goal. They are unwilling to halt it. Previous Israeli administrations have done so.

You'll probably reply "but the palestinians aren't willing to give up anything in return", the core problem is that there is no way for Palestine to give up anything, as it has nothing, and the "enlightened" groups you want to negotiate with are not the ones who are launching rockets into Ashkelon. Israel has to take such action unilaterally. People won't blow themselves up when they have a decent life to look forward to.

your point ?

You can't ever win against Guerillas. If the US(most powerful country in the world) couldn't beat the VC, what hope does tiny Israel have against Hamas and company?

Particularly when those guerillas are able to draw recruits and resources from every single country surrounding Israel.

[Ithekro]

Obviously Israel isn't just going to go in and kill them all, otherwise that would have been done ages ago. Nor are you going to drive them all away, or you would have do that as well by now.

So what, supress them until they have no will to fight anymore? Or just let them keep doing what they are doing for centuries on end? Or do you think they will eventually run out of people to throw at Israel?

Mind you they are still trying to be seen as an indepenant country.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

I'll give you the cliff-notes.
you can't convince people who hate your very existence to embrace you by being "nice" to them.
people (Palestinians included) aren't dogs, and they won't be eating out of the palm of your hands just because you offer them some dog food.

winning hearts and minds doesn't work in this case, because there is no way to win the heart and mind of someone who thinks of you as a thief that sits on what he considers to be his land.
hence, we don't bother trying.

Actually Israel can. It's just that over decades of counter insurgency failure has set Israel back quite an amazing degree. It took just 3 years of American failure in Iraq to set back the effects of effective counter-insurgency there. Imagine what decades will have done. You're right, they're not dogs. It's not going to be nearly as easy as that. But I never said it would be.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Obviously you aren't just going to go in and kill them all, otherwise that would have been done ages ago.

So what, supress them until they have no will to fight anymore? Or just let them keep doing what they are doing for centuries on end? Or do you think they will eventually run out of people to throw at Israel?

Mind you they are still trying to being an indepenant country.

the overall goal (as i see it) is establishing something close to what we now have with Syria and Lebanon.
I.E, a situation where the hostility is present, but the enemy understand the consequences of attacking us, and hence prefer not to do so beyond the occasional token gestures to keep up the pretense of "War against the Zionists".

Syria is probably the best example in this regard.
we have been in an open state of war with them for decades, but our border with them has always been fairly quite.

establishing a similar situation with whatever ends up being created in the Palestinian territories would be optimal (in a realistic sense).

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

You can't ever win against Guerillas. If the US(most powerful country in the world) couldn't beat the VC, what hope does tiny Israel have against Hamas and company?

Particularly when those guerillas are able to draw recruits and resources from every single country surrounding Israel.

firstly, sorry for not replaying to the longer argument, but i'm short on time for now.
so i'll just say the word "Gaza" and move on.

secondly, the U.S lost against an enemy that was fighting on their home soil while U.S troops were fighting thousands of miles way from the "most powerful country in the world".
we don't have that problem.
we live right next door to the bastards.
hence, we don't have the option of running away like the U.S did, because the problems just follow us back to OUR homes. (Gaza and Lebanon both proved that).

Originally Posted by Haak

Actually Israel can. It's just that over decades of counter insurgency failure has set Israel back quite an amazing degree. It took just 3 years of American failure in Iraq to set back the effects of effective counter-insurgency there. Imagine what decades will have done. You're right, they're not dogs. It's not going to be nearly as easy as that. But I never said it would be.

there is no peace between Jordan and Syria (who once tried to invade).
no peace treaty between Iraq and Iran (8 years of war).
the whole "peace process" in the middle east only seems to apply when people talk regarding Israel.
why ?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Obviously Israel isn't just going to go in and kill them all, otherwise that would have been done ages ago. Nor are you going to drive them all away, or you would have do that as well by now.

isn't that the whole point of the West Bank Settlements?

[Ithekro]

You would have to finally allow the Palestinians to have something to call their own without Israeli control in order for that plan to work. And at this point, the negotiations seem to be blocked everytime it comes up. So someone needs to give somewhere to end this stalemate so that your ideal plan can come into effect. Otherwise your plan is not entirely viable, as your border keeps moving with each new Israeli house built in the West Bank (unless things have been zoned out in advance and will not advance farther...otherwise Israel is making it worse one quarter of an acre at a time).

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You would have to finally allow the Palestinians to have something to call their own without Israeli control in order for that plan to work. And at this point, the negotiations seem to be blocked everytime it comes up. So someone needs to give somewhere to end this stalemate so that your ideal plan can come into effect. Otherwise your plan is not entirely viable, as your border keeps moving with each new Israeli house built in the West Bank (unless things have been zoned out in advance and will not advance farther...otherwise Israel is making it worse one quarter of an acre at a time).

they HAVE something to call their own.
they have a functional autonomy in the west bank, and complete autonomy in Gaza when it comes to self rule.
and when (not if) Hamas takes over the west bank, they would have a greater autonomy in that we'll stop collecting their taxes for them and providing them with services.

as for the settlements, idiots would be idiots, but its not much of an issue.
the settlers and the Palestinians frankly deserve each other.