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Ridwan · 2012-03-06, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Actually what you have said reflects the general Muslim mentality, it is often said that the Quran is the most complete and pure. I wouldn't say that the Bible is the most unpure, it is excessively bowdlerised to remove the violent parts (have anyone wondered why all the wars mentioned are so generalised without the details of blood and gore?).

Though a number of times I asked about the Quran between Shia and Sunni Islam, many Muslims got stumped by the question. There is this old man who told me that Shia Islam is "flavoured" with "additional content", and in the case of Iran and terrorist groups, "politically motivated". It is said that these people will go to hell because they "used God's name is vain" (10 Commandments).

All three factions have alot to learn from each other. The orientation of the books are in such a way that, Judaism preaches the invincibility of that guy, Islam preaches his omnipotence, Christianity preaches omniscience (he's everywhere with everyone; he loves his creations so he stalks them all simultaneously

). No matter how complete any of the books are, it is still incomplete to base one's abrahamic belief on just one book without reading from the other 2.

I'll let him/her/it judge us; according to that entity I have no right to judge anyone based on religion and neither does anyone else.

Hmm. Lapsed muslim here, and back then I had an interesting correspondence with a Middle eastern professor regarding the affairs of Qur'an :

Quote:

Me : It's a bit sudden, but there is something that I've been intending to ask you about. It's about Islamic Qur'an.

As we already know, compared to Christian Bible which the christians have silently acknowledged to be no more authentic and has been modified for countless of times, Muslims' Qur'an has always been seriously believed by the muslims to be still authentic up to this day since the death of Muhammad. It's not that there never was nor there is no heterodox Qur'an existing, but it is firmly believed by the muslims that its original version as was revealed to Muhammad still exists in the form of Musshaf Usmani, that is the mainstream Qur'an up to this day.

Now, between Mohammad's death and the commissioning of Musshaf Usmani there was a period of 19 years, in which everything could've happened. I'm not going to ask whether every word within it was authentic from Muhammad himself. I am however, curious about the authenticity of the Musshaf Usmani widely in usage today. Does the mainstream Qur'an of present day share more then half the content of the standard Qur'an completed by Caliph Uthman during his reign ? If it doesn't, where and when did the current version of mainstream Qur'an originate ? Is it the Topkapi's version ?

Prof. Haberl : This is an incredibly complex question that unfortunately hasn't received the attention that it deserves.

I guess it depends upon what you mean by "content." The Uthmanid recension only standardized the bare rudiments of the Qur'an, without any distinction between similar consonants (like baa / taa / thaa and so forth), indication of any vowels, or punctuations. Consequently, unless you were a qari or a hafiz, you couldn't actually read the Uthmanid recension, it being used primarily as an aide memoire for those who actually had committed the Qur'an to memory.

Over the next two centuries, ten different "readings" (qira'at) of the Qur'an that included these things emerged and became authoritative. Not all of them are still known to scholarship; you only really encounter the reading of Hafs in the West, due to the fact that it was preferred by the Ottomans, although I understand that Warsh is still somewhat popular in parts of Northern Africa. From what I've seen (and what I understand), these readings do not differ from one another substantially, although I've heard tell of some pretty strange things about the others (one apparently doesn't include case vowels!). I wish I could say more!

Me : So does it mean there is a reasonable chance that Qur'an has never been really modified ?

Of course, I know it's pretty much impossible to actually confirm anything but, it still seems to me that muslims have way better position to argue about the authenticity of their Holy Book compared to Christians and maybe most other millenia-old religions with theirs...

Prof. Haberl : I'm sorry I didn't get back to you on this earlier!

I guess it depends on how you answer the question. The Qur'an was "modified" in a very basic sense: it was arranged primarily according to the length of the suwar (rather than the order in which they were revealed), and sometime in the 9th century dots and vowels were added to aid the reader to recall one of the basic qira'at. That's probably not what you mean by "modified," though, right? You probably mean something along the lines of blocks of text added or removed, or completely different versions existing side by side.

For my part, I just can't imagine studying the Bible without taking a text-critical position (that is, the belief that it is composed of separate "texts" or documents that were composed/revealed over the course of a 1000 years or so, maybe more). The Hebrew Bible achieved its present form sometime in the 1st c. and the Christian Bible achieved its present forms not too long after that. Of course, the Hebrew Bible then had to wait several hundred years before the vowels were added; the Greek translations already had vowels.

Any modifications AFTER it became canon were relatively minor, on the same level as the debates of the ulema over different qira'at. The problem lies in the status of the text BEFORE it was canonized. As you know, the present form of the Qu'ran (at least the consonantal text, without dots or vowels, in its present order) achieved canonical status within a remarkably short period of time. In the case of the Bible, we have a much larger period span of time to consider, during which different versions circulated, some of which were rejected and some of which made the final cut. Jews and Christians who are aware of this process and acknowledge it (some reject it, but the evidence doesn't support this position) often claim that the process of canonization was itself guided by Providence.

Obviously this process did NOT happen with the Qur'an; if there was a period during which different texts (beyond the qira'at) circulated, it was very short, and there's not much evidence for these texts anyway. So there's no reason to believe that the text was "modified" in any way, beyond organizing the suwar according to the principle of decreasing length and adding the dots and vowels to indicate different qira'at.

I hope that this answers your question!

There are difficult terminologies being thrown in there. But basically, the point is that muslim position is quite ahead of other Abrahamic religions to claim the authenticity of their Holy Book. The thing with Arabic letters is that it is consisted of many nearly identically-shaped letters with only dots to differentiate between them, and it is by default devoid of vowels. The consequences of such nature of Arabic letters is that it's actually perfectly unnecessary to change the skeletal body of Qur'anic letters, and all you have to do is simply to swap the dots and (if required by the condition) vowel signs here and there. Easier said then done of course, but it provides a perfect loophole to change the content without ejecting a single letter. The mentioned fact above about how remarkably short a period it went through to canonize immensely helped in setting the unchallenged primacy of a single version and its status as the unadulrated one. However, all that still doesn't touch the "complete" part of the muslim claim about the Qur'an, which confirmation would have to go through an entirely different route of verification, if doable at all, that is...

Xellos-_^ · 2012-03-06, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

Pedophile test used to lengthen prison sentence of alleged child molester

the kid has a good case against the doctor for fraud.

Autumn Demon · 2012-03-06, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the kid has a good case against the doctor for fraud.

He's not a kid anymore, having already served 13 years in prison. And he doesn't have any case against the quack. In America, expert witnesses rarely, if ever, are held accountable for the damage they do to people's lives.

ChainLegacy · 2012-03-06, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

He's not a kid anymore, having already served 13 years in prison. And he doesn't have any case against the quack. In America, expert witnesses rarely, if ever, are held accountable for the damage they do to people's lives.

Ugh, that article makes me so angry. Angry at that scumbag of a mother who manipulated her kids and ruined the lives of their cousins, and angry at how ridiculous the fear-mongering is in this country that we overlook basic fairness on many of these sensational cases. People just want a conviction; the prosecutors look good, the DA looks good, the media loves the sensationalism, and the jurors feel righteous for putting away the bad guy. It's like the more heinous the accusation, the less willing people are to consider innocence. Which is terrible because that's when we need to be skeptical and try to separate fact from fiction the most.

ganbaru · 2012-03-06, 20:25

Pennsylvania man tries high-fiving cop who gave DUI
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-05-09-49-20

Quote:

Police say a central Pennsylvania man thanked and tried to high-five the officer who flagged him down for driving without his lights - only to then be arrested on a drunken driving charge.

SaintessHeart · 2012-03-08, 11:37

Seiyuu to Fujoshi: “Please Stop Stalking Me!”

Quote:

The stalking and obsessive antics of seiyuu otaku are notorious even amongst their own kind, but the fact that seiyuu Shinnosuke Tachibana is having to desperately beg his own fujoshi fans to stop stalking his every move looks to be evidence that female otaku are just as bad as their male counterparts.

The missive comes from Shinnosuke Tachibana (Inazuma Eleven’s Yuuki Tachimukai, Sekai-ichi Hatsukoi’s Chiaki Yoshino, and star of countless “BLCDs,” games and other productions), made via his official site:

Quote:

And now for a more serious matter.

With the increase in my work and events in recent years, my fans have increased in number too.

I’m truly delighted by this!!

Whether the girls who were with me from the start or new ones, and the fact they now span all ages.

Some issues accompany all this however… In fact, I’d like you to let me make one “rule” about all this.
Please stop waiting for me or seeing me off at the entrances, exits, stations and other places.

To put it nicely, I do not like people waiting for me all the time at these places, although of course I am grateful for you heartfelt encouragement.

[He goes on to explain that such lurking is disrespectful to all the good fans who manage to obey the "tacit rules" which prohibit following his every move]

For example, girls who run into me about town by chance might consider themselves lucky – which is great – but as for deliberately waiting for me so as to provoke such an encounter.

Put nicely, again, I do not like this.

This talk all relates to just a tiny – really tiny – minority of girls who are so overflowing with love that they take things too far, so I’ve had to make this request.

This sort of thing causes huge trouble and bother to all our staff, and I’d like to avoid that.

And this is all most rude to the well-behaved girls, and I apologise for that.

Please forgive the imposition!

[He continues with several more paragraphs of platitudes and apologies]

Online there is a certain amount of sympathy, although many doubt the effectiveness of his tactics:

Quote:

“This could escalate into them following him home and exposing his wife and kids… but telling a stalker to stop stalking you is not going to work, because they are sick!”

“It’s best to ignore them. They’ll just enjoy the attention.”

“What is his agency thinking? Do they think the nuts who you see mumbling to themselves at events will listen?”

“You lot, stop this! You mustn’t commit crimes, you mothers will be in tears!”

“Handling this is his agency’s job. What the hell are they doing? He shouldn’t be worried about bothering them, they should be protecting him.”

“Seiyuu otaku always wait around like that. His skills at ignoring them are pretty low…”

“Ignore them… warning them will probably just prompt more of them to do it. If you must, the agency ought to warn them, not him.”

“They see him to the station? The otome fans are pretty scary…”

“What is up with that?”

“Anyone who would take any notice of a warning wouldn’t do it in the first place.”

Can you fujoshis stop setting a bad example for the innocent young girls out there. That is absolutely unbecoming of a modern female!

Dhomochevsky · 2012-03-08, 12:48

You got to follow your dreams.

Endless Soul · 2012-03-08, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Seiyuu to Fujoshi: “Please Stop Stalking Me!”

Can you fujoshis stop setting a bad example for the innocent young girls out there. That is absolutely unbecoming of a modern female!

I dunno, I think that he's not using his fame correctly and missing out on some good times.

Endless "Missed opportunities" Soul

ganbaru · 2012-03-08, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Can you fujoshis stop setting a bad example for the innocent young girls out there. That is absolutely unbecoming of a modern female!

I would had said a ''modern citizen''. It isn't a conduct appropriate to anyone, guy or girl.

MrTerrorist · 2012-03-08, 23:32

LSD 'helps alcoholics to give up drinking'

From one drug to another.

Ithekro · 2012-03-08, 23:41

LSD or LDS?

MrTerrorist · 2012-03-09, 01:08

Well this is just disgusting and sad.

Hong Kong’s sidewalks are literally overflowing with shark fins

Ridwan · 2012-03-09, 03:08

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/07/148076...sh-settlements

Quote:

Christians Provide Free Labor On Jewish Settlements

by Lourdes Garcia-Navarro
Listen to the Story

All Things Considered
[5 min 3 sec]
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Transcript

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Courtesy of Heather Meyers

Evangelical Christians from the U.S. are living and working at Jewish settlements in the West Bank for weeks at a time. The Christians see Jewish expansion in the area as fulfilling biblical prophecy, though the settlements are a contentious issue between Israelis and Palestinians. Here volunteers harvest grapes.
text size A A A
March 7, 2012

It's wet and windy day in Shilo, a Jewish settlement in the central part of the West Bank that has about 10,000 residents.

In addition to the settlers, there are a few extra people staying in Shilo on this day. They are Christian volunteers from the U.S. who have spent the morning pruning the grape vines. Now, with a winter storm beating down on the hills, the volunteers are stomping with their mud-splattered boots and North Face rain gear.

"We don't bring people here that are expecting mud baths and skin treatments and things like that," says Tommy Waller, a large 50-year-old man with a big smile and a prophet's long beard, who hails from Franklin, Tenn.

"We're kind of rough guys, nice guys, a lot of us are rednecks from the South," he says, "wanting to do a good thing and to help people."

Waller founded HaYovel, a nonprofit group that brings Christians to what his website calls "the mountains of Israel where prophesy meets reality."

The problem is that the world doesn't recognize this West Bank settlement or any other as part of Israel. The Palestinians and most of the international community view the Jewish settlements in the West Bank as illegal.

Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Mideast War and has established settlements throughout the territory, which the Palestinians are seeking for part of a future state. The settlements are one of the most contentious issues between the Israelis and Palestinians, and have been a major obstacle in attempts to restart peace negotiations.

Paying Their Own Way

The Christian volunteers pay for their tickets and cover their own expenses to come. They work for about six weeks at a time, mostly in the wineries. Hundreds take part every year. It's a kind of a work-stay program with a spiritual purpose.

We take the Bible and we look at those things and we see that one of the exciting things for us is that prophecy of scripture is being fulfilled.

- Tommy Waller, an American who brings U.S. Christians to work in Jewish settlements in the West Bank

"We take the Bible and we look at those things and we see that one of the exciting things for us is that prophecy of scripture is being fulfilled," Waller says.

Many evangelical Christians believe that the end of days and the coming of the Messiah will center around Israel. And they interpret the foundation of the Jewish state as biblical prophecy becoming reality.

It's a hugely emotional issue for the Christians who come. They believe it is their duty to help Jews expand their control over Judea and Samaria — the biblical names for what is now the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

One of the volunteers, Mike Clayton, a former preacher from Seminole, Okla., reads out of the Bible from Isaiah 61:5: "The son of the foreigner will come and tend your vines."

Then he adds: "Well, a few days ago, myself and my son got off a plane ... and I got to watch as I handed my son ... a pair of pruners, and I took a picture as he walked out there. He fulfilled scripture. ... Is the Bible true? Is all this happening? I saw it with my own eyes."

A Need For Labor

For the settlers, the presence of the Christian workers has more practical applications.

"Today we have more than 200 acres. It's a lot of agriculture and it takes a lot of work," says Veret Ben Sadon, who helps run the Tura Winery. "We saw that we cannot work alone. I can say for sure that without this help, we cannot do what we are doing today."

Essentially she gets free labor for the heavy seasonal work that needs to be done. She says there is a labor shortage in the area and the Christians fill the gap.

When asked why she doesn't hire Palestinians, who account for the vast majority of those living in the West Bank, she says: "We believe that a lot of them are our enemies and we don't want to give them work. We prefer to give work to our friends and our neighbors and that's what we are doing."

The Palestinian Authority discourages Palestinians from working in the Jewish settlements. But jobs in the Palestinian areas are scarce, and Palestinians do work in construction, farming and other manual labor jobs.

Building Support In The U.S.

Christian volunteers also give the settlers a boost when it comes to building support in the United States.

Back in the meeting hall, Yisrael Medad, a spokesman for the Shilo settlement, jokes and sings "Onward Christian Soldiers." He has an unambiguous message for the volunteers.

"I would hope that each one of you would write a personal letter to any or all of your elected officials," he says.

Over the years, that call to activism has paid off, with many Christian groups in the U.S. providing political and financial support for the settlements in the West Bank. When members of the HaYovel group aren't here, they are on the road in the U.S., speaking at churches and community centers.

Medad says that support is vital.

"America is a democracy and a congressman or a senator has to listen to the people who vote for him," he says. "If you can bring pressure, fair pressure, that's the way you go."

Well, not surprising, really.....

ganbaru · 2012-03-09, 03:23

Police say driver gets 3 speeding tickets in hour
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-08-21-35-52

MrTerrorist · 2012-03-09, 08:57

Chengdu University Fashion Show Rips Off Victoria's Secret

Ok, that's it! I tolerated China ripping off a lot of things but the moment they started ripping off Victoria's Secret.....it's personal!

Mr Hat and Clogs · 2012-03-09, 09:09

Not my underwear!!! Wait... Let me rephrase that. Er.. My er girl friends underwear, yes. Shame on you china, shame on you.

SaintessHeart · 2012-03-09, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Chengdu University Fashion Show Rips Off Victoria's Secret

Ok, that's it! I tolerated China ripping off a lot of things but the moment they started ripping off Victoria's Secret.....it's personal!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Not my underwear!!! Wait... Let me rephrase that. Er.. My er girl friends underwear, yes. Shame on you china, shame on you.

The girls didn't mind though. Did you see how much a pair of $20-$30 lingerie in boutiques go for online? It is sometimes even less than half the price and looks the same!

Of course, the colour and quality seems to be rather off, I don't think I want to have my girl wearing them, for I might lose interest in stripping them off her.

Spoiler for @ 9gag:

GDB · 2012-03-09, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The girls didn't mind though. Did you see how much a pair of $20-$30 lingerie in boutiques go for online? It is sometimes even less than half the price and looks the same!

Of course, the colour and quality seems to be rather off, I don't think I want to have my girl wearing them, for I might lose interest in stripping them off her.

I thought the quality was the entire point behind Victoria's Secret? If you just want sexy or erotic looks, you can get that almost anywhere.

Dhomochevsky · 2012-03-09, 14:39

I think the major global advertising campaigns are the entire point of Victoria's Secret.
If you buy a product like that, always remember that at least half of the price you just paid was strictly to cover the ad budget and has nothing to do with the thing you get.

Anh_Minh · 2012-03-09, 14:58

It's nice to see a university actually preparing its students for the Real World, for what they'll actually do in their professional lives.

2012-03-08, 23:32	Link #6610
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	LSD 'helps alcoholics to give up drinking' From one drug to another. __________________

2012-03-08, 23:41	Link #6611
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	LSD or LDS? __________________

2012-03-09, 01:08	Link #6612
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	Well this is just disgusting and sad. Hong Kong’s sidewalks are literally overflowing with shark fins __________________

2012-03-09, 03:23	Link #6614
ganbaru books-eater youkai Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity	Police say driver gets 3 speeding tickets in hour http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-08-21-35-52 __________________

2012-03-09, 08:57	Link #6615
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	Chengdu University Fashion Show Rips Off Victoria's Secret Ok, that's it! I tolerated China ripping off a lot of things but the moment they started ripping off Victoria's Secret.....it's personal! __________________

2012-03-08, 12:48	Link #6607
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	You got to follow your dreams.

2012-03-09, 09:09	Link #6616
Mr Hat and Clogs Did someone call a doctor Join Date: Apr 2007 Age: 40	Not my underwear!!! Wait... Let me rephrase that. Er.. My er girl friends underwear, yes. Shame on you china, shame on you. __________________

2012-03-09, 14:39	Link #6619
Dhomochevsky temporary safeguard Join Date: May 2004 Location: Germany	I think the major global advertising campaigns are the entire point of Victoria's Secret. If you buy a product like that, always remember that at least half of the price you just paid was strictly to cover the ad budget and has nothing to do with the thing you get.

2012-03-09, 14:58	Link #6620
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	It's nice to see a university actually preparing its students for the Real World, for what they'll actually do in their professional lives.