Is anime getting ruined by the whole "Moe" craze....

[brocko]

Anime has always been largely junk, much like any other entertainment medium. People are only just starting to realise this now because of the extra amount of exposure within the last decade or so.

EDIT: The same proportions of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportions of junk shows nowadays.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by brocko

Anime has always been junk. People are just starting to realise this now because of the extra amount of exposure within the last decade or so.

EDIT: The same proportions of junk shows back then would probably equal the same proportions of junk shows nowadays.

While I don't like your use of word junk, (different people have different tastes, for example I don't like all the FPS games out there and think Dynasty Warrior is better game and more fun than Call of Duty or Halo but I won't call them. "junk") I do agree with your assessment.

All the stuff were there, 10, 20 years ago, the proportions of genre are similar it'ss that westerner are now exposed to series that are more main tream instead of the edgy, mature, niche title like Ninja Scrolls or Triguns, etc.



EDIT:

I just read a few pages and before realizing the opener is an extremist, so this is a counter to some of her claims in the opening post:

On Hayao Miyazaki: I like his films, but don't you think quoting a guy whose films all happens to feature little girls themselves with their ages tend to get younger is a bit hypocritical? I mean there are plenty of Miyazaki heroines that are consider as moe characters.

As for sexist nature, you do realise that Salior Moon anime has nudity and the manga has implied lesbian romance and there are sex scene and implied Electra complex as well right? And Utena is full of lesbian reference with incest implied as well.

Both series are among the most used series even now, almost 15 years later, when comes to fan creations for "jack-off"material as you put it. I mean, I guess you think all those fact must really help further your feminist movement.

Lastly, how conveniently you left off that there are more female characters taking more prominent roles in anime instead of just been damsels in distress or eye candy for hero who waits for his return. Heck, the same moe anime you are criticizing, many also feature girls brutally beating the crap out of guys, talk about equality!! If anything, there seem to be more of a trend degrading males as inferior gender in the world of ACG than vice versa.

Man, this feels like all those nonsense those feminist-extremists saying that Lara Croft is degrading women when in fact she was the one who actually got female characters in action game to be more than eye candy and that women is not the weaker sex that needs to be saved.

[Shai-Lang]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think this discussion is pretty senseless because each person has to start by re-defining what "moe" is. This word should probably be banned in this conversation because it's too confusing and nondescript. So what is the real problem here?

1. [1]The perceived shift from plot-driven shows to character-driven shows? (from action/sci-fi/fantasy towards "slice-of-life"?)
   [2]The perceived shift from shows targeted at "all ages" to shows targeted at male 20-somethings?
   [3]The perceived lack of substance in "modern shows" compared to their "classic" pedigree?
   [4]The perceived increase in quantity or popularity of shows you dislike vs. shows you like? (Or the perceived increase in certain elements within genres of shows you liked in the past?)
   [5]The perceived shift from mature-looking "adult" female characters to younger-looking "childish" ones (and the character qualities that correspond to that appearance)?
   [6]The perceived increase in the amount of sexually-suggestive (or explicit?) material (whether featuring younger-looking characters or not)?

You'll note that I included "perceived" in each of these because the first point of clarification is whether a shift or change has actually occurred (or if it's driven more by exposure/perspective). I'm not saying that a shift hasn't occurred, but we need to be able to identify specifically what has really changed if we want to analyse the root cause and impact.

I think it's easy to make "moe" into a straw man that encompasses "everything bad about anime and my perception of its current fanbase", but that actually has little-to-nothing to do with what "moe" really is or was intended to be. There are peripheral topics that are sometimes associated with moe (like "lolicon"), but these need to be separated out and addressed on their own. There are also "consequent problems" that people have with moe (like the perception of "the creepy otaku" who watch it) that need to also be separated out and addressed on their own. Otherwise, people are attacking or defending an amorphous blob that takes the form imagined by each person in the argument, so there's no hope at reaching any sort of understanding or common ground. I'm not convinced that, if you took any two people in this thread and ask them to define the "moe craze", you'd stand a good chance of getting similar answers. It's sort of like "the things I don't like are increasing and it's a trend that's destroying anime because I don't like it". Well, okay...

Just to clarify this discussion and my whole stance on the whole "Moe" issue. It's numbers 2, 3, 5 and 6 that are my issues with Moe.

Again, perhaps I should clarify, since there is a lot of confusion going around in this thread about what my definition of Moe even is. By Moe, I don't mean the "feeling" but the Moe type animes that are almost Lolicon like. In other words, more the whole Eroge/Harem/Visual Novel type stuff.

[sa547]

The more you rail on moe, the more I am encouraged to save and pick up K-On! next week just for the sheer pleasure of getting entertained, and at the same time try to understand why it's a national phenomenon.

Remember that at this very moment the anime industry is struggling to earn and survive in a post-3/11 era of power blackouts, food radiation, economic and political uncertainty, and Governor Ishihara's monomania.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Shai-Lang

Just to clarify this discussion and my whole stance on the whole "Moe" issue. It's numbers 2, 3, 5 and 6 that are my issues with Moe.

Again, perhaps I should clarify, since there is a lot of confusion going around in this thread about what my definition of Moe even is. By Moe, I don't mean the "feeling" but the Moe type animes that are almost Lolicon like. In other words, more the whole Eroge/Harem/Visual Novel type stuff.

But that's problem, see how relentlessflame used the word "perceived"? It's because all those things are there 10,15 years ago.

It's just that most westerner are not expose to them.

Eroge is there since the 80s, there are anime about it in in form of OVA and TV just as they are now. Harems are there as well, Ranma 1/2 is prime example. All those stuff are there 10,20 year ago that why people can't agree with you view.

Like I said, the animes that you mentioned as classic are actually more detrimental to your "feminist movement" than moe character types you claim.

In fact it was even worse, nowadays, character tend to look younger than their actual age, but back then it was the opposite. At least nowadays those anime character are actually older than they appear compare to back then the trend being 13 years old with the body of 18. I mean really, which on is a better "jock-off" material in your mind?

You do know that Sailor Moon characters are all middle school kid right? (at least the inner senshis) Yet the manga depict nudity, sex, kids with Electra complex that the anime actually tuned it down. Saint Seiya showing 13,14 years old kid beating the crap out of each other and making holes in other people's body.

Compare to that harem type anime is completely tame and wholesome.

And, as I said those same shows also tend to feature females as the stronger sex, which in my opinion further the female equality more than damage it, don't you think?

I mean what is gender equality anyway? Feminist extremist crushes gravure idol, yet has no problem with male idol strut their stuff. They have problem hostess bars but not host clubs. All those people are do their best working on a job that was available, isn't what in the end all this is about?


I mean I'll put it this way, the most sexist countries in the world right now are countries with cultures with most restriction on what women can wear and shows the least of skin in public and media...

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

On Hayao Miyazaki: I like his films, but don't you think quoting a guy whose films all happens to feature little girls themselves with their ages tend to get younger is a bit hypocritical? I mean there are plenty of Miyazaki heroines that are consider as moe characters.

I don't always agree with everything Miyazaki says but there is a BIG difference between Miyazaki's heroines and the heroines in most Otaku based anime (let's use that instead of Moe).

Miyazaki's females are not created with the adult male anime fan in mind. They are not created to sell merchandise of figures in "suggestive" poses or pillows for men to sleep with, etc.

And as a woman I don't find Lara Croft all that wonderful. The thing is she represents a male fantasy but she isn't a representation of what a real woman is to me.

Back to the original subject while I am not really a fan of Moe there are some series with Moe elements that I love (although it is despite those elements). But basically I don't think because something is aimed at at a certain audience it is automatically bad. Haruhi, Madoka, Azumanga Daioh, Ikoku no Meiro Croisee (off the top of my head) are series that I think could be called Moe that I think are all very good.

And I wouldn't say anime is any worse in the depiction of women than other medium (in fact in some ways I would even say it's better than a lot of Western depictions at least for me) but that doesn't mean there aren't problems. But I guess I would rather focus on the good and I do think there are a lot of great depictions of female characters in anime (and not just by Miyazaki).

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't always agree with everything Miyazaki says but there is a BIG difference between Miyazaki's heroines and the heroines in most Otaku based anime (let's use that instead of Moe).

Miyazaki's females are not created with the adult male anime fan in mind. They are not created to sell merchandise of figures in "suggestive" poses or pillows for men to sleep with, etc.

And as a woman I don't find Lara Croft all that wonderful. The thing is she represents a male fantasy but she isn't a representation of what a real woman is to me.

Back to the original subject while I am not really a fan of Moe there are some series with Moe elements that I love (although it is despite those elements). But basically I don't think because something is aimed at at a certain audience it is automatically bad. Haruhi, Madoka, Azumanga Daioh, Ikoku no Meiro Croisee (off the top of my head) are series that I think could be called Moe that I think are all very good.

And I wouldn't say anime is any worse in the depiction of women than other medium (in fact in some ways I would even say it's better than a lot of Western depictions at least for me) but that doesn't mean there aren't problems. But I guess I would rather focus on the good and I do think there are a lot of great depictions of female characters in anime (and not just by Miyazaki).

And that is fine, everyone has their own opinion, you disagree, but you can understand.

But that's not what the opener of the thread suggests.

The very part where she (I assuming Shai-Lang is a she) mentioned Sailor Moon and Utena as example of classic is just in contrast of what you was arguing for.

As for otaku, you think all that marketing was of sexual nature, I say that those marketing and product to them are not sexually based as you describe as least not for most of them. To them the emotional bond of platonic feeling is more important that physical or sexual feeling. They don't "jock-off" at those character just like most female don't masturbate with a male fashion magzine or better yet, body building magazine.

Take the sculpture David for example, I doubt you would describe it as sexual, but a male like me see it can say "how the hell is this an art?" or "it's degrades male gender as sexual being" It also doesn't help that Michelangelo's sexuality is ambiguous. Not to mention in general during the Medieval/Renaissance time the view on sexuality is tends to be that young boys are more of sexual object than women and that was the same in either Western or Easten culture...

[0utf0xZer0]

I really think the opening poster needs to start providing some specific examples of series, because I'm still not really sure which anime she/he is talking about.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Shai-Lang

Just to clarify this discussion and my whole stance on the whole "Moe" issue. It's numbers 2, 3, 5 and 6 that are my issues with Moe.

Again, perhaps I should clarify, since there is a lot of confusion going around in this thread about what my definition of Moe even is. By Moe, I don't mean the "feeling" but the Moe type animes that are almost Lolicon like. In other words, more the whole Eroge/Harem/Visual Novel type stuff.

Well, at least this clarification shows that you're probably talking to the right person, I guess. I fall squarely into the target demographic, and am a huge fan/collector of a lot of shounen/seinen romance and romantic comedy shows that may or may not be harem, and are often based on eroge or visual novels. My favourite shows this season are based on an eroge and on a harem-esque comedy novel... So, generally excepting the "lolicon-like" bit (unless you have a really, really broad definition), your problem with anime is probably personified through me!

There's probably a lot of directions I could take this, but I think instead I'm just going to introduce you to my avatar character, Corticarte. At risk of offending you a bit for the sake of explanation, here is the image from which the avatar was made (a bit NSFW). Both of the characters you see in that photo are Corticarte's two forms, and I'm sure you will conclude (thanks to this image) that the creators are clearly using the "sensuality" (at least) of both character designs as part of her marketable appeal. She was originally featured in a series of rather-popular all-ages visual ("kinetic") novels (and subsequent light novels), and these were adapted into two anime productions (both received to middling reviews and rather minimal financial success... but I still liked them anyway). Despite the story having some harem elements, and clearly using character designs as a key characteristic of the marketing, the story doesn't lack in substance (though it also isn't without its share of stereotypes and cliches). But what I liked most about this work is the musical theme (and the music), the characters and their interactions, and the developing chemistry between Corti and the protagonist, Phoron. I think Corti's character designs are very attractive and I have a bunch of related merchandise (including, yes, a body pillow cover that came packed as a bonus with a magazine ). But the reason I collected this merchandise (and have this avatar) isn't because I'm looking for a "sexy girl to jack off to" (despite some of the images being a bit suggestive, I suppose). The reason is because I have good memories of this character and this show, and seeing her image reminds me of those good memories. I went a long time without an avatar at all on these boards, but I decided that if I was going to have one it should be of a character that's meaningful to me.

So why am I saying all that quasi-personal stuff in this thread (and so embarrassing myself in the process)? Well, these are clearly shows, characters, and stories specifically crafted and designed to appeal to people like me. I recognize absolutely that these companies know exactly how to push my buttons (including through the use of sensual/suggestive imagery), and "manufacture" works that they think I'll like and want to buy. I also recognize that, held up against some sort of great cosmic measuring stick of "good literature", a lot of these shows (like a lot of literature in general) probably won't stand the test of time and will be lost and forgotten over the years. But I'll tell you one thing: damn if I haven't enjoyed the last ten years of anime. I have nothing but fond memories of characters I love, stories that have moved me to laughter and tears, and great times on forums like these discussing the shows with fellow fans. So if you ask me "is anime getting ruined?" I'm going to say "Hell no!" And if they keep on going exactly the way they have been, I'll be damn pleased (and poor).

Are the character designs exploitative and designed to use sex appeal to market to the target audience? No doubt. Is that at all new or related particularly to "moe anime"? I don't really think so; the form might be different, but this exploitation is everywhere. But, despite the risk of my already having been ruined, I don't think this fictional universe and various marketing manoeuvres prevent me from showing respect to real people of both genders, and I think that's good enough for me.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

As for otaku, you think all that marketing was of sexual nature, I say that those marketing and product to them are not sexually based as you describe as least not for most of them. To them the emotional bond of platonic feeling is more important that physical or sexual feeling.

Uh-huh. You really think that most people (probably mostly guys but I don't want to make statements I can't quantify) buy dakimakura of their favorite anime girls because they want to protect and nuture them? I'm sure that's what someone buying this item (NSFW) had in mind. At least Misaki is of legal age. How about the "come hither" expression on the face of seven-year-old Murasaki on this item? I'm sure she's supposed to be just asking for a hug. Sure.

Then there's an item like this one (also NSFW); I'm sure we can all guess what is underneath those colored bars. Unlike the first two, I doubt this one is official, but whoever produced it clearly thought it would sell. Yune is thirteen, by the way, and the model of innocence and sweetness in the manga and anime.

I have a variety of criticisms of both the style and substance of Shai-Lang's original post, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the overt sexualization of young girls from anime and manga. Perhaps if you become the parent of a young girl as I was you might find this phenomenon as offensive as I do.

[Marcus H.]

Perhaps if you become the parent of a young girl as I was you might find this phenomenon as offensive as I do.

I understand how you feel (although I'm not a father, I do have an attachment to real-life little girls, as long as they're not always bratty) but this is actually part of a vicious cycle that might not be put to an end anytime soon. Not that I'm supporting this NSFW trade between merchandisers of these stuff and their perverse clients, mind you.

[Irenicus]

Aside from the obvious fact that the original poster is trolling, which I feel is a better allowance for a person's character than to say that someone is naturally vindictively prejudiced (seriously gentlemen and ladies, I know we're a bunch of nice, naive, gentlefolk who enjoy civilized conversions and intellectually stimulative disagreements, but do be more troll-sensitive), I think 0utf0xZer0's short little question just a few posts above, alongside some other posts that mentioned this point earlier, nails an important problem: moe doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

I get the feeling the rants and angered anti-moe crowd uses it as an umbrella term for all sorts of personal horrors ranging from borderline-hentai-of-the-season to sparkly (and sparkly-darkly) magical girls to high school slice of life series and even that bouncing butt catgirl in Guilty Crown because they're all "cute girls." Some who have wider experience with otaku culture might even add to that the usual generic VN art style or the direction of the common plots of (note the different focus) currently thriving Light Novel market. Big, big definition that essentially translates to "the market today" and thus all sorts of personal hates can be brought into it.

So of course you people who use it that way hate moe, if that what it means to me too I'd be...well, not hating, but disinclined to be favorably disposed to.

Some disaffected Western oldie sci-fi fan gets his chance to rant at how Japanese cartoons no longer do so much of that heavy sci-fi stuff no more [substitute mecha as needed, though if someone is "lamenting" the "loss" of Dirty Pair or somesuch I'm going to bitchslap the stinking bastard], what does he say? Moe. Damned moe. Fuck moe. Silly beta-omnivore-man-pathetic-fap-to-2D-otaku moe (not that he himself doesn't fap to some other icon, but don't let that part bother you).

I don't see things quite so simply, of course. Personally I do admit regret at the relative decline of longer, plot-ful epic adventures, though some are still made (unfortunately I'm one of the three people in the world who disliked Last Exile, so I can't exactly join in with the new party; Horizon-of-the-whatever creeps the fuck out of me with its main character's design, plus I despise oppai, and as for Guilty Crown, well we know how that turns out); some of the franchising outright pisses me off (do you really need seven fucking manga spinoffs on a silly little LN series? Sure I like it, but not that much!), but these aren't problems with moe now is it? Some other people raises more interesting points. Cyth pointed out what he pointed out to me some time ago that the industry is being populated by creative talents raised on these tropes and it's getting a bit too self-referencing (see again the LN market); Seiji raises a difficult point regarding the undertones of sexualization in the commercial culture that cannot be avoided.

Moreover, I don't feel like something like Kanokon -- or should I update that definition to, eh, whatwasit, Maken-ki? -- is something remotely similar to Heartcatch Precure, or K-On!, Sora no Woto, or Clannad, or Ben-To, or Haganai, or...

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Sankyu Complex

Anime fans have been discussing the controversial thesis that the advent of Haruhi and her subsequent blockbuster hit status is responsible for drastically lowering the quality of anime to its current moeblob worshipping Type B paradise status.
The exchange:

Spoiler for 2ch:

“Late night anime from 2004-2006 was great. After Haruhi it all went downhill.”
“You like Da Capo and Bottle Fairies?”
“This period was actually the worst!”
“No way!”
“After an otaku onanism title became a major hit everyone started worshipping them.”
“You can’t just come out with this stuff without explaining what causes it!”
“You can tell without explaining it. Now they just churn out these light novel adaptations in droves.”
“2004 was godly, but 2006 was a dark age. 2005 was OK.”
“I agree with him. Everything went crazy after Haruhi. Nobody funds proper anime, the work is all outsourced, the quality went down the toilet after they started getting those dirty Koreans to do it, and so fewer people watch it and the quality gets worse still in a vicious cycle.”
“Didn’t they say this sort of thing when Eva came out?”
“This guy doesn’t even watch decent anime! These days hardly any anime suffer quality collapse problems.”
“Besides, they’ve been outsourcing to Korea for years, long before Haruhi.”
“I think the animation quality has improved hugely. It’s gorgeous now. And Korea and China are much better at doing the work as well.”
“2003:
Gun Parade March
Stellvia
Last Exile
Da Capo
Onegai Twins
FMP Fumoffu
Kimi ga Nozomu Eien
Tsukihime
2004:
Stand Alone Complex 2nd GIG
Maria-sama ga Miteru
Initial D Fourth Stage
Fafner
MaiHime
Gundam Seed Destiny
2005:
Negima!
AIR
Oh! My Goddess
Honey & Clover
Eureka Seven
PoniPoni dash
Lyrical Nanoha A’s
Shakugan no Shana
Aria the Animation
MaiOtome”
“There’s no trash there!”
“It’s nothing but trash! Nothing’s changed!”

It probably won't end soon (as long as there is demand for it, I doubt the OP would get her wish fulfilled)

[SeijiSensei]

Ah, yes, there's the answer; it's all "those dirty Koreans" fault.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Uh-huh. You really think that most people (probably mostly guys but I don't want to make statements I can't quantify) buy dakimakura of their favorite anime girls because they want to protect and nuture them? I'm sure that's what someone buying this item (NSFW) had in mind. At least Misaki is of legal age. How about the "come hither" expression on the face of seven-year-old Murasaki on this item? I'm sure she's supposed to be just asking for a hug. Sure.

Then there's an item like this one (also NSFW); I'm sure we can all guess what is underneath those colored bars. Unlike the first two, I doubt this one is official, but whoever produced it clearly thought it would sell. Yune is thirteen, by the way, and the model of innocence and sweetness in the manga and anime.

I have a variety of criticisms of both the style and substance of Shai-Lang's original post, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the overt sexualization of young girls from anime and manga. Perhaps if you become the parent of a young girl as I was you might find this phenomenon as offensive as I do.

Undertaker's states his point in an overbroad and not particularly well formulated fashion (sorry man, but its true), however, I am inclined to agree with his general point. I have figures of Hitagi Senjougahara, Tsubasa Hanekawa, and Yuki Nagato that are definitely a bit sexy, but the appeal to me has more to do with aesthetic and connection to the character than anything else. And I've also seen some merchandise of characters from eroge in the nude that honestly came across as pretty tasteful and artistic. To me, body pillows are distinct from most other merchandise in this regard because of the implied intended usage.

Now, of course, that was more a defense of his point than an address of your point, so I'll move on to there. I'm actually inclined to agree that there's some rather creepy merchandise out there. However, I would not rely on the available merchandise to determine whether a show itself promotes lolita complexes or whether its fanbase has such complexes. (Actually, given the number of times I've thought "I love this show but could do without the loli fanservice, I wonder if that many fans of some loli shows actually have lolita complexes, but that's another matter.)

As for the cited examples:
Misaki: I still honestly wonder if this one wasn't intended to sell as more on meta-black humour than sexuality. I mean, seriously, it's Welcome to the NHK. When I first mentioned that pillow to a friend a few years back, he replied - without seeing the picture - that he applauded the creators of it for the meta-satire.
Murasaki: Yeech. Even I'm not willing to stand up for this one on anything other than my "people can do whatever they want if they keep it to themselves" philosophy. The fact its pretty damn tame for a body pillow aside from the loli aspect makes me think the artist went into this thinking "why the hell did I take this job".
Yune: I certainly hope you don't merely "doubt" whether this one is official... I'd eat my used boxers soaked in hot sauce if it is. Anyone, this one would offended me if it was official merchandise because it would go against the spirit of the show (another reason I dislike the Kurenai one). As a fan made piece, however, I can't say it bothers me at all, regardless of the legality of the uncensored version (which I obviously have not seen) in my country. Maybe if it was a preteen character I'd think differently, but it simply doesn't trigger a reaction like the Murasaki one for me.

[Undertaker]

True, I didn't really put too much thought in that part and it probably comes out the way it was meant to with that generalization. I meant that many of those merchandises are more for shows and personal collection and were not for sexual nature. Do those product exists, absolutely, but they not the fault of certain anime/manga genre.

I mean when you can find 18X dojinshi based on Doraemon rather easily, I don't think you can say that moe is at the fault.

But if we are going to use specific example. I all buy those expansive hug pillow covers in convention (Misaki kind) and figures and even breast mouse pad, but I don't personally use them and none of other people I know who bought them actually use them or view them to jock-off or anything sexual. We treated them as art form, granted a sexual ones in some, but art from nevertheless, not unlike the David statue I mentioned.

While I understand as parents where they are from, but keep in mind most otaku are still normal, rational people. Heck many of them are popular celebrities, athlete, or business men and many of them like 2D more than 3D (at least when it comes to loli and moe).

As for your merchandise example, I'm sure there are some people who would buy them (the later two), but they are in vast minority, just as I'm sure there are few parents who would violate/kill their own children for no apparent reason. So are you willing to condemn the majority for what the minority does?

(BTW, even though Yune is 13, by Asian old method count she is 15 [which was mentioned in manga] and considering the period the anime was in (late 19th century), she was of marring age)

While I'm with 0utf0xZer0 on "people can do whatever they want if they keep it to themselves" philosophy, I also believes in the philosophy that I rather have a people who plays eroge, or watching rape porno than an actual sex-deprived monsters walking around the street hunting.

We have well over 6 million people in U.S. playing FPS games, but you don't see 6 million killers roaming the street do you? If a simple anime picture can turn someone into a monster, I'm sorry, they are already too far gone to begin with.

Since we are talking real life, and assuming you are talking about lolicon as pedophile, with all that recent news and actual pedophile cases, shouldn't you direct your attention more to the priests and your daughter/son's coaches/teachers?

Either way, that really wasn't what the opener was talking about (I think) she was more upset about objectify women than anything and in that front, she has yet to give any valid points to support her claim.

[relentlessflame]

I'm going to lock this thread now because the discussion within has largely been superceded by this thread. Thanks to everyone for your participation and ability to keep this thread civil despite some touchy subjects being at issue.