Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[flying ^]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

LOL, you really believe the mainland Chinese can't tell Mercedes and Mitsubishi
apart. Sorry, I guess no explanation will make you wiser.

i posted a link on this pages ago.

it's true that at one point Mitsubishi Motors was owned by Daimler AG (produces Merc-Benz), then Daimler dropped Mitsubishi like it's hot nearly a decade ago.

best guess is that weibo user has been living under a rock since then!

[Yu Ominae]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Six navires des garde-côtes taïwanais dans les eaux nippones ( 6 taiwanese coast-guards boats on japanese water)
http://www.lapresse.ca/international...x-nippones.php ( article in french)
If it's true, even Taiwan is now trying to show strenght, as they seen to have armed troup on some of the boats.

Read up on incoming news. JCG ships used water cannons to turn away the Taiwan-based boats.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

This is ridiculous. I'm still waiting Japan to show some form of strength whatsoever in the area for the sake of showing that no one should mess with what has been deemed to be Japanese territorial waters linked with those islands. Just send a DDG type (Sumeragi knows what kind of ship I'm alluding to), for heaven's sake.

What exactly would that accomplish other than giving Beijing the pretext to escalate their own response? You can send a missile destroyer, fire some shots at the civilian ships, but what are you gonna do when China sends their own naval assets? Internet Bravado is one thing, but doing things your way would result in a shooting war in no time.

For all the political posturing on both side, open war is the last thing either one wants. China can ill-afford more drags on its economy, which is already uncomfortably slow and leading to civil unrest, and it certainly has no wish to give the US any reason to further bolster its presence in the area for a war that, frankly, it can't win.

As for Japan, it definitely cannot afford to lose China, which has become it's no.1 trading partner, especially in light of its lackluster economy of the past few decades that continues to show little sign of picking up. China also controls the vast majority of current active supply of rare earth metals, which Japan's hi-tech sector is dependent upon. Forget about sending ships, if China really wanted to make a point to Japan, it'd just cuts off the supply of rare-earths instead, which it has already done so before.

TBH, territorial disputes like these are rarely settled quickly, if at all, and I doubt this would be any different, regardless of all the saber-rattlings, as it is actually in the interest of all sides to keep things as much to the status quo as possible.

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

Now that begs the question. is it a crime now to mind one's own buisness to stay away from politics? Or would that in your eyes make the average Joe an irresponsible citizen?

Nope, but people rarely consider things from all angles logically, much less when they're impassionated about something. The default move for many seems to be grouping everyone into one broad category, "Them", and then proceed to lash out as if everyone in said group had committed whatever it is that had offended them initially.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

At the end of the day, its usually the average Joe, the apolitical-mind-his-own-buisness who doesn't want part in these pointless political arguments over "interests" that will never benefit the said average Joe. Each "tension" is another sad day for Joe it seems, who must take flak and shoulder decisions and problems that where never his own.

Yeah, I certainly can't imagine how cheaper gas and energy prices could possibly affect the average joe.

As for Tom, he has the bad habit of throwing profanities and insults to anyone that speaks against the Chinese Communist Party, so pretty much everything he ever says rings hollow to me. And to many here, I'm sure.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by aohige

Yeah, I certainly can't imagine how cheaper gas and energy prices could possibly affect the average joe.

pfft, as if any of that money would trickle down to the consumers, least of all in a country where the energy industry is nationalized.

It's no different in the US either, I wonder if all the people that advocates drilling everywhere realizes that all that oil are simply placed on the international market anyway.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

pfft, as if any of that money would trickle down to the consumers, least of all in a country where the energy industry is nationalized.

It's no different in the US either, I wonder if all the people that advocates drilling everywhere realizes that all that oil are simply placed on the international market anyway.

Not all nations are America, and are you sure there are no offshore oil drilling for domestic consumption ANYWHERE in the world?
And besides, even if the gas was sold internationally, it's still job creation and wealth creation for the nation.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by kyp275

pfft, as if any of that money would trickle down to the consumers, least of all in a country where the energy industry is nationalized.

It's no different in the US either, I wonder if all the people that advocates drilling everywhere realizes that all that oil are simply placed on the international market anyway.

Oil AND gas. Also, you have to consider that there are different kinds of oil being traded on the market, the three primary types Brent, West Texas and Dubai-Oman are different in processes and refinement quality.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kyp275

What exactly would that accomplish other than giving Beijing the pretext to escalate their own response? You can send a missile destroyer, fire some shots at the civilian ships, but what are you gonna do when China sends their own naval assets? Internet Bravado is one thing, but doing things your way would result in a shooting war in no time.

For all the political posturing on both side, open war is the last thing either one wants. China can ill-afford more drags on its economy, which is already uncomfortably slow and leading to civil unrest, and it certainly has no wish to give the US any reason to further bolster its presence in the area for a war that, frankly, it can't win.

As for Japan, it definitely cannot afford to lose China, which has become it's no.1 trading partner, especially in light of its lackluster economy of the past few decades that continues to show little sign of picking up. China also controls the vast majority of current active supply of rare earth metals, which Japan's hi-tech sector is dependent upon. Forget about sending ships, if China really wanted to make a point to Japan, it'd just cuts off the supply of rare-earths instead, which it has already done so before.

Cutting rare earths to Japan would not make a very intelligent point seeing said Japanese high-tech manufacturing is what China's industrial sector runs on...

It's like that idiotic statement calling for calculated trade sanctions on Japan recently released by some section of the chinese commerce ministry

[Ithekro]

Plus their Coast Guard seems to be driving the various Chinese away most of the time.

Plus China's first aircraft carrier entered service after all these years. The Japanse don't quite have a counter for that, though their "helecopter destroyers" would probably come close if they put the right kind of aircraft on it.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Plus their Coast Guard seems to be driving the various Chinese away most of the time.

Plus China's first aircraft carrier entered service after all these years. The Japanse don't quite have a counter for that, though their "helecopter destroyers" would probably come close if they put the right kind of aircraft on it.

If they can mount heavy antiship missiles on the helicopters it would be fine.......but the heavier ASMs would require an aircraft big enough to carry two or more, like the V22 Osprey.

Either that or they build Konig Monsters and deploy them abow.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Cutting rare earths to Japan would not make a very intelligent point seeing said Japanese high-tech manufacturing is what China's industrial sector runs on...

It's like that idiotic statement calling for calculated trade sanctions on Japan recently released by some section of the chinese commerce ministry

Canada has been recently putting themselves into a good position to sell more than enough raw materials to Japan in case the PRC wants to play that card. I would be the first to welcome a new business deal with Japan if the situation changes, especially since Canada stands among the few countries holding a steady economy in the current times.

Originally Posted by kyp275

What exactly would that accomplish other than giving Beijing the pretext to escalate their own response? You can send a missile destroyer, fire some shots at the civilian ships, but what are you gonna do when China sends their own naval assets? Internet Bravado is one thing, but doing things your way would result in a shooting war in no time.

For all the political posturing on both side, open war is the last thing either one wants. China can ill-afford more drags on its economy, which is already uncomfortably slow and leading to civil unrest, and it certainly has no wish to give the US any reason to further bolster its presence in the area for a war that, frankly, it can't win.

But the problem is that Japan shows themselves as weaklings when they are in a legitimate position to hold their ground and make sure they hold the rightful claim on the islands. And besides, sending a military ship to give a warning has been done several times in recent history and I don't think it ever degenerated into a full-scale conflict, especially if that ship stands within a legitimate position. If I was Japanese, I would raise questions about how the current government takes seriously or not the integrity of the country's territorial waters in their actions. Personally, I just hate when my own government looks weak on particular subjects; I know what that is when Stephen Harper is our PM.

Just for analogy purpose, the Spanish tried that kind of intruding tactics with civilian ships against us in 1995, and yet our Coast Guard used what was deemed necessary to get us rid of those trawlers despite the fact that it was endangering our economical ties with almost the entire European Union. In the end, Spain ended up being the biggest fool in this whole story. Thus, I don't see why Japan would not try to show some muscle when it's about their own territorial waters.

edit:

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

If they can mount heavy antiship missiles on the helicopters it would be fine.......but the heavier ASMs would require an aircraft big enough to carry two or more, like the V22 Osprey.

Either that or they build Konig Monsters and deploy them abow.

That would be quite some kind of project for a multi-purpose artilery unit able to fire at ground targets or aerial threats.

[Cherudim Arche]

http://wanderingchina.org/2012/09/20...ew-york-times/

Oh, don't you have to consider the timing of this bad as well. Since China has its nationally holiday starting in October 1-7. It would hurt Japan and China equally with the dispute. As for South Korea and Taiwan, it might benefit from the tourism that Japan has incited.

[Cosmic Eagle]

If they can mount heavy antiship missiles on the helicopters it would be fine.......but the heavier ASMs would require an aircraft big enough to carry two or more, like the V22 Osprey.

Either that or they build Konig Monsters and deploy them abow.

To sink the Varyag (or indeed carriers in general), short of nuking it, you need to split the hull and that is done usually with supersonic ramjet missiles like P-800 Oniks or simply a massive payload.

Japan has no Tomahawks to do this, and air launched cruise missiles would be costly depending on how good their air defence umbrella is....it's possible to pull off sure but the pilots have to be damned good at their job

Also, you need to take into consideration that at the proximity of Japan and China, Varyag is most llikely going to be operating right off the shore of china, maybe even from the Bo Hai Bay itself.


The Soviet plan against USN battle groups called for massive submarine and air launched heavy missile swarms.


Is there even a heli that can carry missiles of that size?

[Sumeragi]

Only the Koreans have such capacity.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Or you do it with torpedoes and subs....

But Japan's sub force sucks so...plus the day they develop supercavitating torpedoes is really really far off

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Cherudim Arche

http://wanderingchina.org/2012/09/20...ew-york-times/

Oh, don't you have to consider the timing of this bad as well. Since China has its nationally holiday starting in October 1-7. It would hurt Japan and China equally with the dispute. As for South Korea and Taiwan, it might benefit from the tourism that Japan has incited.

If the evidence in that article is indeed true, then China's claim is not entirely unbased, unlike what Ithekro(I think, forgive me if I mention the wrong person) mentioned earlier in his post. Of course, this matter should really be settled in international court instead of being mad as a source of personal violence outlet like what those groups of Chinese citizen are doing right now.

I have to wonder though, if the problem for the dispute is really only the resources in said island, why won't anyone just come out and say "leave te drilling toward outside third party, and we'll divide the cost and the result evenly". That way both side will still recieve the benefit without the damage from constant bickering, although the benefit may not be as much. I really will never understand human greed lol.

[Sumeragi]

That article is just being biased. Qing had never incorporated the islands even when there was the argument over the Ryukyus. Everything is pretty much after the fact.

[Seitsuki]

Because there's been an objective side to this debacle the whole time right?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Or you do it with torpedoes and subs....

But Japan's sub force sucks so...plus the day they develop supercavitating torpedoes is really really far off

We haz Z'Goks.

[kuroishinigami]

But the article mentioned that he researched official Meiji period documentation from Japan national archives, so said evidence is not a one-sided claim from China and show that the Meiji government did acknowledge that the islands belong to China prior to the war, or at least it's supposed to unless the article maker is lying when he said he research Meiji period documentation lol

Originally Posted by aohige

We haz Z'Goks.

Lol, don't forget to paint it red to make it 3 times faster