Fate/Zero - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Haak

^ What I meant was that from his perspective he'll see killing Tokiomi as the only achievable way of obtaining the Grail.

Yet in episode 5 Kariya had Berserker try and kill Gilgamesh even though Tokiomi was nowhere in sight. It's questionable if he still would've gone hunting for Tokiomi afterwards if he'd been able to get rid of his Servant right there and then. He claims his priority to be getting the Grail to save Sakura after all, so getting back at Tokiomi should merely serve as a possible bonus in the process of achieving that.

...Is what I'd like to say, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me either if his transformation and deteriorating physical and mental condition had lead him to convince himself that he has no choice but to kill Tokiomi if he wants to obtain the Grail.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Thess

Right, all caring and fatherly people would abandon one of their daughters to another family, then plan to do the same with their wife and other daughter to reach the Root (not really a spoiler, his plan was revealed in the first episode, although that fans without background in Nasuverse would miss what reaching Akasha would mean, like the origin bullets: google). He's a caring magus mentor and a deadweight dad. He's the opposite of Kariya, who would be a great father, but a terrible magus. This episode contrasted them. They are foils like Kayneth and Waver are, like Kiritsugu and Kirei are. Who is there to save Rin from danger? Certainly not Tokiomi, he's busy with his futile schemes in the basement.

See, now I haven't played the VNs, so I did not know that. That was actually the kind of background info I was looking for, so thanks. Shame he doesn't actually care about Rin, then.

And huh. Wonder why the heck I thought Kariya wanted him dead like that...

[Proto]

That's just his interpretation of Tokiomi's character. My take on Tokiomi is that his way to care about hisdaughters is just... different...

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Proto

That's just his interpretation of Tokiomi's character. My take on Tokiomi is that his way to care about hisdaughters is just... different...

I sort of agree. It feels like magi have their own sub-culture and mentality. The rules among magi are different. It would be no surprise if the way they handle family is different too.

[Xagzan]

I guess I should've said the thing I didn't know was that he has to abandon the rest of his family to reach the Root. Guess that's what watching the anime without playing the VNs gets me. Ah well. Just going purely by the episode though, it's understandable that one might think maybe Tokiomi did have an actual paternal, human side.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for stuff from FSN but nothing spoilery?:

Please, FSN doesn't even mention her mother. Like the whereabouts of an insignificant childhood friend would be addressed. Her failure is important, as someone else said earlier, about what symbolizes.

And no, it wasn't the same. That part felt awfully rushed in the episode, there was little built up, compared to the fanservice nonsense earlier. When it should have been the climatic focus and not a 'oh we forgot something, here!' aftermath bonus. That and Kariya's chat with Aoi (which was the purpose of Rin's adventure, not Rin herself, but as a way to expose those two: she was nothing but a plot device to trigger it) felt tacked on to me, instead of flowing well within the episode.

I do welcome the addition of Tokiomi stuff, but they should have stopped with it. No Super loli. Please. This isn't a mahou shoujo.

You didn't really get my point I think: regardless if the said childhood friend was insignificant or not, a child would be severely altered if they were to be subject of such horror to begin with. I mention horror as some members mentioned she should have seen gruesome things whatsoever (while sticking with the material alone would be a bit of an issue).
Retcons are actually fair and fine if they don't alter that much with the already established situation (here, FSN). As such, expanding Aoi and Kotone aren't going against what was established by FSN by a long shot. However, having Rin finding a corpse and whatnot would be a huge problem, since it would be extremely unlikely she would turn the same as in FSN.
This is also the very reason why Urobuchi didn't go that far in the original LN, since there are limits he can do with characters, especially those who are destined to be present in works that are chronologically after the current one.

I never said I wasn't discontent with Rin "saving" the day, but I'm quite puzzled by such overexaggeration regarding the tone since Rin by herself did get a lesson that she went on something that was outside of her league.
Furthermore, it emphasis how Ryonusuke is nothing special, aside of being a lunatic killer. Past that, he is your average joe, and would be smacked by anything with little prana control.
The form and presentation of Rin's "heroine overdrive" are obviously dubious in term of tones and whatnot, but the content is there: she is not really apt to take on the holy grail war at all, Ryonusuke can't care less about things so long he can do whatever he wants etc.

Also, your mileage may vary, but expanding the whole deal with Kotone was required in term of narrative: you don't suddenly insert "background characters" for a single line and then let it sink 1-2 paragraphs afterwards. The LN tried to make it mundane, but it was overly overshadowed by Aoi and Kariya's meeting, and didn't make Rin's little trip as a said event, but a forced trigger that came out of the left field. Now I don't imply that the anime is perfect in that narrative approach, but suffice to say, they made a proper closure for this incident. And this goes back to the first point I made. In a nutshell:
-Keeping the strict content of the original material would be too awkward in term of flow and will impend the next events which need a full episode. You should realize as well that having both Rin adventure and subsequent scenes would be bad for the episode as a whole.
-Expanding the whole venture could be either on a "happy" or "ghastly" note, but the latter is impossible otherwise it would lead to issue with character concistency. The happy note, by itself, was cheesy, but still shaped the character as intended.

Please note I do not pretend they didn't do it for fanservice mainly. But beneath that ploy, other points are eligible to raise for such flashy change.
In the end, I would be fully satisfied if they changed how Rin turned the tables and other factors were present. But brutality/shocking parts there? No, can't do. And if they sticked with the original material alone? That situation would be basically more or less flat, and the next events would have a very awkward timing in term of closure.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Proto

That's just his interpretation of Tokiomi's character. My take on Tokiomi is that his way to care about hisdaughters is just... different...

Never said he didn't. He cared about Sakura and Rin as magi in training, but not as human beings. Just like Kariya never cared about their potential as magi and saw them just as girls.

Both of them have extreme and incomplete views of it. That's the point of their characters: they are foils.

[Proto]

but not as human beings.

Well, yes, indeed, that's what I'm disagreeing with. For me it's very similar to how some parents push their kids to do their best in a very 'though love' fashion, even though from an outsider point of view it might look like slave driving; for their parents its just their way of loving their children and wishing their best for them.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Proto

Well, yes, indeed, that's what I'm disagreeing with. For me it's very similar to how some parents push their kids to do their best in a very 'though love' fashion, even though from an outsider point of view it might look like slave driving; for their parents its just their way of loving their children and wishing their best for them.

No, it's not. He sees them as magi, not as human beings or little girls. He does love them... as a bunch of magical circuits like all magi do.

They don't give away their infant children when they push them to excellence. Specially when Sakura was what? Five at most and never got a choice about it?

Kariya loves them as people, but he fails to see they are also magi. So his grasp in the situation, like Tokiomi, is incomplete.

[GeostigmataShi]

Originally Posted by Thess

No, it's not. He sees them as magi, not as human beings or little girls. He does love them... as a bunch of magical circuits like all magi do.

They don't give away their infant children when they push them to excellence. Specially when Sakura was what? Five at most and never got a choice about it?

Kariya loves them as people, but he fails to see they are also magi. So his grasp in the situation, like Tokiomi, is incomplete.

No you are wrong,
if he see them as magi he would train them is a harsh way
Tokiomi REALLY care about his daughter
there's a reason to why he gave sakura to zouken, go read the Ln if you want to know
Tokiomi just fail to know Zouken true nature,
he expect him to train sakura harsh... but not until using the worm CMIIW
Don't speak like you are 100% sure when we're haven't even reach half of the whole series...

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Thess

They don't give away their infant children when they push them to excellence. Specially when Sakura was what? Five at most and never got a choice about it? [/I], is incomplete.

But that's exactly what may be expected of "good parents" by traditional values in many countries. Non-heir are expected to get nothing, so giving a daughter away to a prestigious family would have been viewed as an excellent parental choice. Even in America, up till the 50s upper-class girls were raised specifically to become trophy wives, attending etiquette classes and all. Political marriage drove the world for millenniums. Similarly, raising children to be magi is the main expectation of elite mages in the first place. Heck, Tohsaka is probably still the most humane of the three great families. Einzbern are making homunculi that literally serve as objects and die after they serve their purpose, and I need not talk about the Matous...

Remember, Tokiomi is so traditional he still sits by candlelight all day. It's values dissonance, but by mage standards he's not necessarily considered a bad father.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Man despite going alone in Fuyuki city is hazardous to one's health in was little miss bad ass taking on creepy Ryunosuke and saving her best friend with the other kids.

It almost feels like Iskandar was wasted on Waver. Just think if those two were Master and Servant.

Lucky for Rin Kariya was around to protect her from Caster's starfishes.

Originally Posted by DRAGUN H.E.X.

now that explains how Rin also became a mahou shoujo

Yes too bad she had to grow up and be a hag. Now Ilya there's an eternal loli.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GeostigmataShi

No you are wrong,
if he see them as magi he would train them is a harsh way
Tokiomi REALLY care about his daughter
there's a reason to why he gave sakura to zouken, go read the Ln if you want to know
Tokiomi just fail to know Zouken true nature,
he expect him to train sakura harsh... but not until using the worm CMIIW
Don't speak like you are 100% sure when we're haven't even reach half of the whole series...

I did read the LN. Nowhere in the LN he gives the impression that he loves Sakura and Rin as human beings, beyond their potential as magi heirs. Outside of magic? Surely you jest!

Originally Posted by Moekou

Remember, Tokiomi is so traditional he still sits by candlelight all day. It's values dissonance, but by mage standards he's not necessarily considered a bad father.

So...?

Tokiomi aims to be a 100% magus, ergo, he can't have humane values. That's pretty obvious. Heck, his wish and strive is to disconnect completely of the world (and that includes abandoning his family) to go to the Root. You can't get more magus than Tokiomi Tohsaka.

That's why I say, that he loves them as magi, not as human beings. From the human beings POV (aka Kariya, who rejected his magi ancestry), his actions are deplorable. Just like Kariya's are (running away from his family) from a magi's POV.

It doesn't mean he'll be a bad mentor to Rin, in those scenes, Tokiomi shows he's a good mentor and, surprise, it's all magic related.

Spoiler for very slight.... stuff from fsn:

Have you forgotten Rin's narration in the prologue? Her father only pat her head once and never smiled at her (according to Rin). Wow, super human treatment.

They are foils. Like Kayneth's (dogmatic and aristocracy ways of magic) and Waver's (new, unorthodox ways to do magic). They are foils that conflict, Kiritsugu and Kirei are foils too. Is his way wrong or right? Well, that's to be seen.

[sento]

The whole point of Tokiomi character is not that he's not loving his daughters as human beings, it's that he does but he can't show it because he's supposed to act as a magus without human values. The novel is kinda obvious with this (even if in the original japanese is even more obvious because the translation was made from chinese and was kinda off sometimes).

Tokiomi conflict is the same that Rin will have, minus the tsundere part (even if he shows that too sometimes...),

[Proto]

No, it's not. He sees them as magi, not as human beings or little girls

I didn't know you could inside of his head. Otherwise, as I've said this is just your own construction of his character (and you're entitled to it, just as I'm entitled to mine). And frankly, we are just repeating our own arguments over and over again so I think this is a good point to cut it off unless you(me/us) bring something new to the table.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moridin

This anime is my first encounter with the Fate series. I love most of the episodes in this anime, Fate / Zero, except this one. This episode felt so dissconected from the rest of them, and the Rin character was almost thrown ontop of us and expected to be the main char in an entire eppisode. Considering that she might have a total of 1 minute screen time up until this eppisode that is a big change.

I realize that she will probably move on to becoming one of the main chars in the next grail war ( Fate / Stay night?), but still, this felt too sudden and too dissconnected.

(Nighttime and slightly drunk, will fix errors later if I find any)

Zero is clearly written under the presumption that you'll have read (or at least watched the anime of) Fate/Stay Night first, so they just assume you'll be familiar with Rin and she won't need introduction.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The only problem I have with Rin causing so much trouble for Ryonusuke is this: If Rin can do this, why can't her father? Or any other Master for that matter?

I mean, this guy is supposed to have a bounty out on his head, IIRC. Free command seals for getting him and/or Caster, right? And yet Ryonusuke can casually go around playing pied piper, and a kid Rin is enough to cause him problems, but none of the other Masters can get to him even with free command seals on the line.

It paints a rather strange picture, imo.

Because Rin is a kid, and the other masters aren't. If Ryonusuke sees one of them, he runs like hell or calls Caster. If he sees Rin, he thinks "wow, she'll look pretty on my wall with her intestines hanging out" and tries to grab her.

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

Tokiomi does care. The city is under his care after all and a traditional mage like him would be concerned with the Grail War affecting outsiders. But he is probably hoping to do the minimum and let Archer deal the final blow (and getting an extra command seal in the process).

And I agree with Thess on this episode. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Tokiomi only cares that magic might be exposed, not about the people who are dying. He's certainly not going to risk his own chances of winning in order to kill Caster.

Originally Posted by Haak

I suppose I should give credit where it is due and mention that they did rather well to flesh out Rin's relationship with her father and Kotone and produce that great atmosphere when Rin was trailing Ryunosuke. Really I actually thought it was a good episode up until Rin powered up like that. I think what should've happened is that instead of having Rin fight Ryunosuke, they should've filled in the gap by placing in some backstory of Kariya and Aoi's relationship. If I remember correctly, they did cut out the background explanation of Aoi and Kariya in their first scene so they could've simply placed that here. It would've worked well with the rest of the episode as well.

Yeah, I wish they'd taken the opportunity to cover more of Kariya's backstory, or Sakura's, rather than just padding it with fanservice for Rin fans....

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I'm not fully clear on Kariya's motivations for wanting Tokiomi dead. Is it just because he has a thing for Aoi himself, or loves the daughters like his own and doesn't like what happened to Sakura?

I only ask so I can actually know how I'm supposed to feel about him. Because this episode showed Tokiomi having a caring fatherly side to Rin, so if Kariya just wants him dead for some selfish reason, not so sure I'm completely cool with that, even if giving Sakura up was an unbelievable crime.

He blames Tokiomi for what happened to Sakura, and the pain that caused Aoi. He sees it as being in Aoi's interests that Tokiomi be dead, so that he can reunite her with her youngest daughter and allow her to live a life with her children without Tokiomi seperating them.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Anyway, I agree that there's a lot of different factors involved, but as I see it what ticks Kariya the most is that Tokiomi has the family of his dreams, yet acts coldly and indifferent towards them and was even willing to rid himself of one of the daughters, whom Kariya would've gladly raised himself. It's very natural to get pissed off at someone that takes away from you everything you've ever wanted and then treats it with disdain and indifferently discards it. Kariya doesn't give a crap about magi tradition and would've treated Aoi and her daughters with the utmost care and affection if he'd given the opportunity to do so. But he wasn't, because some cold magus bastard got it instead, and took the place Kariya wishes and likely feels should have been his. That reality had likely caused him suffering long since before the Holy Grail War even came into the equation, but with Sakura's situation it escalated to a whole new level. And obviously it doesn't help that his body has been made to suffer excruciating pain and now possesses an actual expiration date.

Yeah, I think that about sums it up.

Tokiomi has everything Kariya would want. The woman he loves and two daughters he adores. And, his response to that is to treat them like shit, at least from Kariya's viewpoint (remember that he doesn't see Tokiomi being nice to Rin). He rides roughshod over the feelings of Aoi and Rin in order to give Sakura away to a monster who tortures her, and seems not to even care. It's not surprising that Kariya hates him.

Originally Posted by Proto

That's just his interpretation of Tokiomi's character. My take on Tokiomi is that his way to care about hisdaughters is just... different...

Well, yeah, but when "different" means "hand one of them over to be tortured", it's understandable that Kariya isn't too accepting of it....

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Thess

He doesn't say he wants Tokiomi dead

gee, he just showed her he's a master, what do you think he plans to do with tokiomi? have a glass of wine and discuss the horrors sakura's being subjected too by Zolgen? Of course he wants to kill him. And of course Aoi understands very well that Kariya -being a master- intends to kill her husband

which btw, she very much loves, as hers wasn't an arranged marriage, or rather, it was arranged with her consent. She married Tokiomi because she wanted to

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by giorno

She married Tokiomi because she wanted to

Perhaps, but I'm pretty damn sure Sakura didn't consent to being torn away from her family and given to a monster to be worm-raped, so....

[kk2extreme]

Rin accomplish so much in one ep, her farther barely does anything in comparison for 10 ep

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Perhaps, but I'm pretty damn sure Sakura didn't consent to being torn away from her family and given to a monster to be worm-raped, so....

I'm pretty sure he never knew that would happen though. As far as Tokiomi knew she'd just be raised to be a mage, just like Rin, except by a different family.