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GuestSpeaker · 2015-01-07, 02:42

Wow, I am super enjoying the manga version of ep8, Ange's actions are finally starting to make some sort of sense

Mali · 2015-01-18, 14:16

Hi there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

How did Maria set the chain lock? That sort of requires locking yourself in the room and she was with Battler's group pretty much the whole time.

Ah I'm sorry if you misunderstand. Of course I refered to this:

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Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

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Erika's motive for murder is because she's a petty asshole willing to murder people to win an argument. If her meta-motive isn't good enough....realizing she was being trolled by the Ushiromiya family after her tragic incident caused her to flip out and go all Vietnam on them to make sure she wasn't losing her perception of reality, I don't know. Non-Meta Erika isn't really a thing, though.

Odd. Because of that it's a little bit hard to believe the layer of the game.
Erika got drunk and killed imaginary people and became married to a Battler using her imagination.
It's a little bit sad the sealed letter got no attention. Yasu's role in this twilight setup has to be more or less important.

jjblue1 · 2015-01-19, 17:55

Honestly I would have loved a better explanation for Ep 6. No, not just how the logic error worked but how the plot of the mystery was meant to work.

I mean, I can swallow that Erika was the murderer.

There are hints that Erika might be a rather paranoid person. She calls herself a detective who was only searching for the proof of her boyfriend’s betrayal but if you check how she describes her searching for proofs… well, it’s a tad too meticulous for being normal.

It’ll be actually interesting if her boyfriend in Prime NEVER CHEATED ON HER as her evidence was all circumstantial after all and Bern confirmed things in red using one of those stuffs I call ‘red tricks’ (it’s red but it works only on this gameboard, it’s red but it’s actually not meaning the most obvious thing, it’s red but hey, if you read between the lines it doesn’t really prove what you were thinking it did) but the trauma of being betrayed by him only worsened her paranoia.
Also in ep 6 is hinted Erika might have a disturbed personality as she insults the adults, basically claiming they’re idiots and has a fight with Maria. Although they’re apparently minor things, on the gameboard there was no reason for her to act in such a way.

And so we get on Rokkenjima and Battler playfully tells her that she might end up killed by the witch. The people pretend to drop dead and Erika, afraid it’s a plan to actually murder her, mistakes the situation and end up murdering everyone to ‘make sure they’re really dead and therefore can’t do her any harm’. Erika can’t trust anyone after all and can believe only red.

And here’s where I can buy she would murder people on the gameboard.

Of course it can also be that Erika secretly solved the epitaph (we know from ep 5 she can do it) and decided to keep the gold for herself… but this would slightly go against her characterization as in Ep 5 she was described as not interested in the money.

What becomes more troublesome buying is how MetaBattler knew that Erika wouldn’t use the detective authority. Erika, after all, had that option and if she had used it she either wasn’t the murderer or Ep 6 wasn’t Knox compliant.

Yes, I’m aware that there’s a theory suggesting that Battler purposely created a setting in which a logic error could be created so as to push Beato to solve it and recover her memories but this would mean that not only he devised a plot in which an apparent logic error might be solved if Beatrice were to recover her memory but also had to make sure that Erika won’t do the detective proclamation or either he would have to revise his plot a lot as he should pick up another murderer.

Of course it could be that Battler was carrying on two separate plots at the moment. We know that Featherine said he could switch from a plot to another. So if Erika wanted to be the culprit, fine by him. If Erika didn’t want to be the culprit, the culprit could be someone else… let’s say a random name like Kyrie. Yeah, totally random. Okay, let’s say himself as he pinned himself as the culprit in the previous episode also.

After all it mattered little to him who was the culprit. What he wanted was to prove he understood Beato’s game and have Erika try to set up a logic error that could be solved by Beato only if she were to remember who she was.

Likely he figured Erika would love trap him in a logic error as soon as he heard the name and as soon as Erika didn’t immediately make the detective proclamation he figured this meant she wasn’t going to make it and discharged the other potential culprit.

Still, yes, Lambda was right, Battler wasn’t playing chess but poker, basically basing his whole game on guessing which would be the actions from the other parties. If Bern and Erika hadn’t aimed for a logic error or Bern had decided Erika could do the detective proclamation his whole plan would have crumbled before starting.

haguruma · 2015-01-23, 10:18

After real life eating me up again (it truly is hard to be out of university...even graduate school gave me so much free time), I had time to do a translation of the two chapters that have come out again since I last posted. The first one is pretty much the same as the VN, just with nice visuals backing it up, but chapter 33...damn is it a good one.

Spoiler for Chapter 33 DEATH:

Spoiler for Chapter 33 RESSURECTION:

AuraTwilight · 2015-01-23, 15:23

yea, the EP8 manga is infinitely better, holy shit.

jjblue1 · 2015-01-23, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

After real life eating me up again (it truly is hard to be out of university...even graduate school gave me so much free time), I had time to do a translation of the two chapters that have come out again since I last posted. The first one is pretty much the same as the VN, just with nice visuals backing it up, but chapter 33...damn is it a good one.

Spoiler for Chapter 33 DEATH:

Spoiler for Chapter 33 RESSURECTION:

Thank you so much for the translation of the new chapters! They're awesome.
And I guess that this quote:

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Bern: What is this Golden Truth?! What is your Golden Truth...that it can win against the Red Truth...??!!?
Ange: A heart that trusts. That is “our“ consensus. Against the truth that we agreed on and share, even your Red Truth is powerless. You see, true and proper magic can only be used by those who understood to accept reality. You cannot break my heart with Red now that it has overcome the truth!!

means to explain us what gold truth is.

In the VN we only have Ange saying:

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A believing heart. ......This is 'our' consensus. ......Compared to the truth that we all acknowledge and share, your red truth can't hurt anything.

It's nice to see they expanded things a bit claryfing it's not just blind belief but that one has to be aware of reality and understand it as well.

haguruma · 2015-01-23, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

yea, the EP8 manga is infinitely better, holy shit.

I still think if Ryukishi doesn't have the time to do so, people should group together and do a port back to the VN. It's a real pity too, since it's not like this would have been impossible to do in the VN...it doesn't really rewrite anything, it simply expands. But it does make the characters (especially Ange) so much more likable.

I was basically squeeling with glee when Ange transformed into her witch-form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's nice to see they expanded things a bit claryfing it's not just blind belief but that one has to be aware of reality and understand it as well.

I also loved the bit where she says that neither completely denying fantasy nor losing yourself in it is actually a good option, that you need to master both to live.
It finally wonderfully mirrors Ange's journey to realization in EP4.

Oh...and I absolutely adore the line

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How light and shadow mixed together and created the twilight that is my family!

In the context that chapter 33 and all the new elements create, this makes the title of EP8 a lot richer as well.

GuestSpeaker · 2015-01-25, 18:12

It really does make the title that much more meaningful. Classic Ryu to either expect us to realise Twilight is also a mix of light and shade and represents the people and the family, OR to retcon it later when he realised it was cool.

I may be a bit slow, as when reading the VN I never really got what Ange gained from reading the one truth, I thought it was something to do with realising that she was the only one who could protect her family. But it is much more satisfying if it is about the fact that she broke from her fantasy, but also realised that she needed to overcome her reality.

Speaking of which, do you guys believe her journey of discovery ever really happened? The fact Ange's life/death status centres on what happened after she jumped from the roof, and the line from Bern about how Ange was a witch for a short time from the moment she jumped off the building till the moment she hit the ground, kind of implies to me that Ange just found the book after Eva died, read it, and then had an internal struggle about what to do with her life.

Ayu-ayu · 2015-01-25, 20:10

I wasn't sure until reading Haguruma's translation (thanks again...so exciting!) of the latest chapters, but now my current theory is that Ange's "death" is what the rest of the world will see, but she lives on in her new identity that we know from the end of the "it was really magic" epilogue. Her "death" mirrors that of Battler's (and maybe Beatrice's?) in that it is real as far as the rest of the world will be concerned.

That said, I'm not sure how much of her journey, if any of it, happened, considering the other events in that part of the story.

Of course, I'm totally prepared for something else...we still don't even know for certain which epilogue is the "true" ending. "The sea of fragments is vast..."

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the manga concludes things. I have a feeling R07 has some juicy new treats in store for the epilogue as well.

Oh, and I was pretty surprised to see some of the new interplay between Bern and Featherine (particularly her own insolence to Featherine). Plus that bit of backstory for Erika's cats could well describe her, too, even if she is a Witch.

GuestSpeaker · 2015-01-25, 22:52

I also liked that bit about death being permanent "physical or psychological"

Nice save there Ryu

haguruma · 2015-01-27, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

But it is much more satisfying if it is about the fact that she broke from her fantasy, but also realised that she needed to overcome her reality.

While I always read it that way, it is nice to have clarification on Ryukishi's part. There is something like literary ambiguity and then there's just plain ambiguity...and VN EP8 just didn't make much of an effort to give Ange a proper motive or stringent development (which I totally blame on subpar editing).
Manga-Ange is much more coherently written, in that she is the end of the line of a lot of people who stood before the same choice as her and gathers enough from the experiences they and she herself made to make an informed and intelligent decision to search for a mixture of both pathes, AND we are actually informed as a reader that this is what happened.

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Speaking of which, do you guys believe her journey of discovery ever really happened?

I think her journey happened, just how much of it actually happened in a supposed Rokkenjima Prime and how much happened as much as the events on the gameboards happened stays the question. I lean towards the idea that Ange is a catbox by herself, the content we are presented with in EP4, 6 and 8 is (for me personally) just the possible content of the catbox from the point when she went up the roof to her reported death in 1998. All of the things COULD have happened, but might not have. Still, I doubt we are presented things that wouldn't have happened ever.

From my current standpoint I'd say, EP4 was likely what Tohya considered might have happened within the catbox, since she would have "died" to him as well. At least in the time between 1998 and the time where she released Sakutarou's Journey and it probably dawned on the Hachijô's who Kotobuki Yukari was.

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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Oh, and I was pretty surprised to see some of the new interplay between Bern and Featherine (particularly her own insolence to Featherine). Plus that bit of backstory for Erika's cats could well describe her, too, even if she is a Witch.

Actually that part was in the VN as well, if I remember correctly. Just shows how lackluster much of EP8 was in the VN, since I had forgotten as well until I reread some of the VN to check up how many chapters we are likely left with.

I suppose next month (chapter 34) we'll go up to Ange making the choice in Beatrice's final riddle which will lead her to the door to her future, then the door being closed, Ikuko denying to release the diary and Featherine casting the golden rose into the ocean. I HOPE we also get to the October 6th part and it isn't split into two chapters...since the remaining scenes in the Capital are actually very short.

I do wonder whether we will get the Tea Party inbetween chapters, since it technically isn't part of the plot so much this time around...it could actually rather confuse readers into thinking the whole story is over. And I don't want to wait till April to see Kotobuki Yukari and Hachijô Tôya.

Lombardest · 2015-01-28, 01:12

Sigh, the manga really feels more appropriate in this part and the one where Ange wakes up after her "suicide"... You know, long ago I thought that people were bashing EP8 for it's message of wanting to keep her family alive in her heart, forgiving them and herself, not giving up on the hope of seeing them again one day. Everything is an illusion, may as well stick to the one you feel that will make you a better person... But now I see it was for the execution.

I just reread that part in the VN and that line where Beato apologized for "throwing those bottles half-jokingly" just feels so wrong. That was only allowed while they were in the happy fragment where the bottles were a game, when B&B were trying to relief her with the knowledge that his family would have wanted that kind of happiness, and it's what they want for her.

Here it's... is something that could have well been in the VN even without the existence of Confession of TGW, actually I have a slight issue with Confession for it's implications regarding Tohya's struggle to remember. If he had come into contact with that, the forgeries have no reason to exist since they were made as a way to help him remember, Dawn would lose a great deal of it's purpose in consequence. So that only makes me believe more in the theory of Tohya giving the ideas and Ikuko making the mysteries without giving him the answers, she has been pretty insistent on all the "your reasoning has more value than just the truth" thing, and after proving that he realized everything (Dawn), she thought there was no problem in revealing the Diary anymore.

Anyway I got sidetracked, back to the scene... she HAD to confront them after reading the diary, and she HAD to answer for all her guilt. I know that was the original intention but all this refusal to "give the answer sheet" resulted in something so self mocking. Those messages contained her suffering and her desperate attempts to reach out to someone for not having the courage to talk directly. They were charged with indecision and remorse, so using the word Joke it's......... geeeeeeeeeez.

It's really the one mandatory change that this story needed, it's impossible for me now to say it would be complete without that revision. Regarding other changes I have more lenient opinions, here's a quick summary:
- I was perfectly ok with Willard having a more firm last stand while mocking the Goats' "thinking is irrelevant" mindset, but Battler's dialogue felt more appropiate going straight to defending the purpose of the game with Golden.
- The lixaxil duel with Erika had it's own charm for me, there was a certain consistency in Erika not getting to solve the other mysteries in the end and just fighting Battler on equal footing. This fall in badassery gets balanced with his moment of Gold Truth before but, despite revealing more, I'd still like to think the original was worth saving in some aspects.
- Be them goats or shadow versions, they were still the same mindless beasts, if anything they were included due to the fanservice of Black Battler. But it was quite nice to see Beato getting enraged as a final way of saying "this is just fanservice people, the story itself says it was concieved by bored people that wanted fanservice, and you are stupid assholes if years after it's end you are taking it seriously", it gets it's significance now more than before, when it didn't have the feeding of the Ougon Musou games, that subvertion was so meta.
- The working of the Twilight title in the dialogue and the symbolism in Ange's new form are AWESOME WELCOME BONUSES. Originally it was a scene where I really didn't feel the need for the text to be gold, the white talked of a golden glow and I just trusted in it, which in my opinion is the point of the Golden Truth. But this is great because it adds so much more, doesn't remove.

Lombardest · 2015-01-28, 02:04

wait, i'm reading the translation that was posted in previous pages of EP 8 chap. 26:
"p.6
Beato (flashback):
Who was it who told me that I should "just write a love-letter saying 'I like you'"?!
If you won't say anything then I will!
No, I actually have something to tell her as myself!
What Ange wishes for is neither consolation nor trickery!
She wants the truth concerning us all!
"Live""

When did this scene actually happen? Not the flashback.

jjblue1 · 2015-01-29, 16:28

In an interview Ryukishi gave his final answer on the manga.

APGNation: The character of Sayo Yasuda in Umineko is interesting. What were your thoughts in Sayo’s creation? Additionally, what were your thoughts on her expansion in the Umineko manga?

Ryukishi07: The secret of the character of Sayo is the core of Umineko’s story, so her inner workings and development were designed carefully and with the utmost complexity.

In the original version, in order to leave room for imagination for the reader to solve the mystery, I chose not to draw Sayo’s secrets in great detail (of course, it’s still possible to grasp, but I didn’t show things in a way where everyone would get it.)

With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a “period” to the “sentence” that is the world of Umineko.

Because of this, when I met with Natsumi-sensei [Kei Natsumi, the artist of the manga adaptation of Umineko’s eighth episode], I asked her to show all the secrets in a way that can easily be understood by anyone.

Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko.

By no means is the manga version a individual interpretation. It is an official answer from me, Ryukishi07.

Full interview here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

wait, i'm reading the translation that was posted in previous pages of EP 8 chap. 26:
"p.6
Beato (flashback):
Who was it who told me that I should "just write a love-letter saying 'I like you'"?!
If you won't say anything then I will!
No, I actually have something to tell her as myself!
What Ange wishes for is neither consolation nor trickery!
She wants the truth concerning us all!
"Live""

When did this scene actually happen? Not the flashback.

Battler told this to Beato in Ep 5, when she was... well sort of comatose. In the manga it's in chap 11 and it's a rather cute scene with Battler caressing Beato's head. Though he hasn't worked up yet she wants to write him a love letter... he only has figured there's something she wanted to tell him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Sigh, the manga really feels more appropriate in this part and the one where Ange wakes up after her "suicide"... You know, long ago I thought that people were bashing EP8 for it's message of wanting to keep her family alive in her heart, forgiving them and herself, not giving up on the hope of seeing them again one day. Everything is an illusion, may as well stick to the one you feel that will make you a better person... But now I see it was for the execution.

Yes, the execution of Ep 8 was ultimately poor and confusing. I can get Ryukishi wanted to withold the answer... but ultimately the message, as far as I'm involved, got muddled as well.
The manga makes it much more streamlined and better convey everyone's feelings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

I just reread that part in the VN and that line where Beato apologized for "throwing those bottles half-jokingly" just feels so wrong. That was only allowed while they were in the happy fragment where the bottles were a game, when B&B were trying to relief her with the knowledge that his family would have wanted that kind of happiness, and it's what they want for her.

Let's say it's the happy interpretation of what Sayo did. She was too deep into depression to realize the consequences of her own actions. For her throwing away the bottles is a way to create more possibilities she'll be stopped (if someone had found them earlier he might have reported it to the police/warned the Ushiromiya). She couldn't figure she would have created such a catbox that would have kept haunting Ange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Here it's... is something that could have well been in the VN even without the existence of Confession of TGW, actually I have a slight issue with Confession for it's implications regarding Tohya's struggle to remember. If he had come into contact with that, the forgeries have no reason to exist since they were made as a way to help him remember, Dawn would lose a great deal of it's purpose in consequence. So that only makes me believe more in the theory of Tohya giving the ideas and Ikuko making the mysteries without giving him the answers, she has been pretty insistent on all the "your reasoning has more value than just the truth" thing, and after proving that he realized everything (Dawn), she thought there was no problem in revealing the Diary anymore.

While I love confession, yes, I've also the same problem. If a bottle with the confession and the explanation exists and it's the first thing that is shown to Tohya (Ikuko says they talked previously about the Rokkenjima incident but imply it wasn't really deep talk) Tohya was basically handed the solution right from the beginning.

That is unless after Tohya felt sick Ikuko decided not to let him read the bottle and Tohya forgot about it, having to work the mystery out of his own.

But well, there are still many things on which I'm hoping the manga will answer... and I'm sort of disappointed Battler's side was only brushed over so far as all we know about how he spent those 6 years is that he was 'busy' (though it's hinted that he didn't exactly spent them in happyness as Sayo feared and even the manga showed a picture of him crying... but well, it's all rather vague). I would have also loved to have an answer about the letter he might not have written to Sayo... but I'm starting to think that's not an answer we're going to receive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Anyway I got sidetracked, back to the scene... she HAD to confront them after reading the diary, and she HAD to answer for all her guilt. I know that was the original intention but all this refusal to "give the answer sheet" resulted in something so self mocking. Those messages contained her suffering and her desperate attempts to reach out to someone for not having the courage to talk directly. They were charged with indecision and remorse, so using the word Joke it's......... geeeeeeeeeez.

Well, I love how the manga traced the parallel between Beato's situation and Ange's situation while in the VN it got mostly overlooked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

- The lixaxil duel with Erika had it's own charm for me, there was a certain consistency in Erika not getting to solve the other mysteries in the end and just fighting Battler on equal footing. This fall in badassery gets balanced with his moment of Gold Truth before but, despite revealing more, I'd still like to think the original was worth saving in some aspects.

Well, honestly I prefer for Erika to solve the mysteries in which she was involved. It gives the duel more meaning and it gives more credit to Erika's figure as detective. In the VN Erika looked more incompetent than Battler despite knowing how the game worked way better than him.
In fact most of Battler's messes are due to him not having the slightest idea how the game worked. He didn't know he had a right to inspect things, he didn't know that Knox was in action, he didn't know that the narration could lie.
Erika knows all this, she could look past to Battler's game and yet... she solves nothing despite being a supposedly awesome detective?
She feels like a fail.
Here we learn that she was tricked by Bern (who withold info and set her on Natsuhi) and that ultimately she could solve everything. She's worthy of her title as detective.

Definitely the manga is doing a way more awesome work to portraying the characters.

BTW it seems Ep 7 Teaparty manga version hints at the existence of Eva's diary which is something I don't remember being mentioned in the VN. Interesting, like how they showed Beatrice wasn't anymore in the room when Eva woke up.

Lombardest · 2015-01-29, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a “period” to the “sentence” that is the world of Umineko.

And that will bring us closure at last... until they announce an animated adaptation for chiru and we get all hyped for having the manga version spoken by the actors, if that ever happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Battler told this to Beato in Ep 5, when she was... well sort of comatose. In the manga it's in chap 11 and it's a rather cute scene with Battler caressing Beato's head. Though he hasn't worked up yet she wants to write him a love letter... he only has figured there's something she wanted to tell him.

Ou, I didn't explain myself clearly. I don't mean the flashback nor the time Battler said that, but the moment Beato scolded him for not applying his own words to Ange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, honestly I prefer for Erika to solve the mysteries in which she was involved. It gives the duel more meaning and it gives more credit to Erika's figure as detective. In the VN Erika looked more incompetent than Battler despite knowing how the game worked way better than him.

Is not that I wanted the answers to be kept hidden. I guess it's because using the duels as the moment to reveal it, I expected the battle in the church would also be a confrontation regarding the mysteries of the games, something like each duel would be over EP5 and EP6 respectively, you know in a way that would make both clashes more meaningful. But oh well, the church did have the symbolism regarding that random closed room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

But well, there are still many things on which I'm hoping the manga will answer... and I'm sort of disappointed Battler's side was only brushed over so far as all we know about how he spent those 6 years is that he was 'busy' (though it's hinted that he didn't exactly spent them in happyness as Sayo feared and even the manga showed a picture of him crying... but well, it's all rather vague). I would have also loved to have an answer about the letter he might not have written to Sayo... but I'm starting to think that's not an answer we're going to receive.

I still remember Ryukishi talking about that when asked in Answers of the GW. Instead of refusing to answer, he seemed amused with the fact that possibility was thought, as if it were one of those things we could just assume for the love we may have for the characters.

It is a fact that Battler had a more stable environment to heal since he didn't recieve more cruel revelations regarding his origins (even though there still remained the issue of his true mother). Yet... I'm also one who thinks that his uncommitted attitude towards girls and his total refusal to suspect anyone were the effects of that single revelation, contrary to Sayo's fear of him never being serious about it in the first place. The boy that talked about how he loved novels with "heart" at their centre felt betrayed, he lost trust in love as to not be hurt again, but the boy couldn't discard his desire to love. And so he idolized all the relationships he had as something infinitely close to love but never reaching that point. Nobody is evil, but nobody is special either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

BTW it seems Ep 7 Teaparty manga version hints at the existence of Eva's diary which is something I don't remember being mentioned in the VN. Interesting, like how they showed Beatrice wasn't anymore in the room when Eva woke up.

That provides a mystery explanation to how Ange got that revelation before reading the diary itself. Maybe the employees at the hospital found it and she heard someone reading it aloud. However that still makes me wonder how did she write about events where she wasn't present and some of the characters thoughts. Some could be imagined to a certain extent but, Battler getting nostalgic about Shannon... There's something off about that being present, once again I'm not sure what is part of the contents and what is a meta narrative. A theory is that Tohya got in contact with Eva at some point after the incident, or he just told her in the island everything he had witnessed. That would only amount to the things he actually witnessed though, they didn't saw how George's proposal went or the murders of the servants and cousins... Unless....

And yup, long before that I had read that scene again, indeed Eva did not mention seeing her corpse when she woke up.

Btw, me, enigeist and bffempire are the same person

haguruma · 2015-01-30, 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

And that will bring us closure at last... until they announce an animated adaptation for chiru and we get all hyped for having the manga version spoken by the actors, if that ever happens.

The problem with an animated version would be that it'd need an immense amount of episodes. EP8 as it is in the VN alone would probably clock in at something around 40 episodes and that only if the battles are kept short. The PS3 voice track on auto-read clocks in at something around 16 hours (960min divided by an average runtime of 24min per episode lands you at 40 episodes), add to that the addition of CotGW, the new chapters in the Golden Land, more lines spoken in the finale and you'd probably get somewhere around a two season anime (52 episodes)...and that totally leaves out the fact that scenerey shots, that can be created with a few lines or one panel, need to be set up and left running for a few seconds in an anime.

The way that EP8 was in the VN, I'd have said that there is a lot of content that could be cut for time, but the manga made sure to make all of it meaningful in some way.

Quote:

Ou, I didn't explain myself clearly. I don't mean the flashback nor the time Battler said that, but the moment Beato scolded him for not applying his own words to Ange.

That would be in the Golden Land after they escaped from Battler's gameboard and before Ange joined them...technically during the time we spent with Ange in the Capital of Books.
We can either see that with the magical interpretation of them actually existing in the Golden Land and Beato scolding Battler for not holding true to his own motives in the meta-storyline. Or we can see it as Ange, in her heart, realizing that Battler made the same mistake that the witch-culprit was blamed for in Hachijô Tôya's novels, namely not speaking up about the actual goal.

Quote:

But oh well, the church did have the symbolism regarding that random closed room.

Well, EP5 and 6 both "belonged" to Erika in a way, so it was only fitting for her to crush Battler's illusion that he created an impenetrable protection around the catbox.
I liked the way they reworked the whole battle in the chapel visually (I hear there's also a way to read the manga-chapters now, if you haven't already). In the VN I found it severely lacking in terms of the investment Beato and Ange had in their fight. Beato came across more as malicious and Ange just as an angry child (not helped by the voice actors being apparently as confused about what they were supposed to convey), but the manga makes it clear how desperate they both are.

Quote:

That provides a mystery explanation to how Ange got that revelation before reading the diary itself.

Well, that'd be impossible since, the one to break the seal on the Book of One Truth and the first one to read it is [...] Ange. There was no other person to read it, but there was a lot of speculation, so in a way the EP7 Tea Party shows us how close the public and even Ange in her own head was to the truth, she simply didn't want to believe in it.

jjblue1 · 2015-01-30, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

And that will bring us closure at last... until they announce an animated adaptation for chiru and we get all hyped for having the manga version spoken by the actors, if that ever happens.

Personally I think Umineko should have been divided in 4 series, not two as the first part was cut so short it removed a lot of meaningful things and Chiru is even longer so... I don't know how could they fit it all in another 26 episodes series.

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Originally Posted by Lombardest

Ou, I didn't explain myself clearly. I don't mean the flashback nor the time Battler said that, but the moment Beato scolded him for not applying his own words to Ange.

The manga only shows that scene as a flashback, but didn't show it when it happened. Supposedly after Ange got her hands on the book of truth... but we don't know exactly when. It might be before Ange woke up in the golden land, which would also fit with how Battler isn't around so as to give Beato a chance to tell Ange what she has to tell.

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Originally Posted by Lombardest

Is not that I wanted the answers to be kept hidden. I guess it's because using the duels as the moment to reveal it, I expected the battle in the church would also be a confrontation regarding the mysteries of the games, something like each duel would be over EP5 and EP6 respectively, you know in a way that would make both clashes more meaningful. But oh well, the church did have the symbolism regarding that random closed room.

In the manga the scene is rather powerful... but yes in the VN not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

I still remember Ryukishi talking about that when asked in Answers of the GW. Instead of refusing to answer, he seemed amused with the fact that possibility was thought, as if it were one of those things we could just assume for the love we may have for the characters.

It is a fact that Battler had a more stable environment to heal since he didn't recieve more cruel revelations regarding his origins (even though there still remained the issue of his true mother). Yet... I'm also one who thinks that his uncommitted attitude towards girls and his total refusal to suspect anyone were the effects of that single revelation, contrary to Sayo's fear of him never being serious about it in the first place. The boy that talked about how he loved novels with "heart" at their centre felt betrayed, he lost trust in love as to not be hurt again, but the boy couldn't discard his desire to love. And so he idolized all the relationships he had as something infinitely close to love but never reaching that point. Nobody is evil, but nobody is special either.

Yes, I tend to think he was scared of being betrayed like it happened to his mother... but at the same time he didn't want to think bad of others because it would mean he would be betrayed all over again.
Interesting enough I'm not sure how stable Battler's environment was.
There are hints to how his grandfather was absolutely furious with Rudolf and might have willingly or unwillingly digged the dagger further into Battler's wounds.
His grandparents died, exposing him again to loss of someone he loved.
It's hinted his school life in the beginning wasn't perfect (in middle school he refused studying and only recently he figured out that behaviour was wrong... and there are other mentions of how people made fun of him for being naive, and of how he picked up fights with people).
Battler's way to react to bullying (or problems) thought is mostly to wave it off and laugh over it or pretend to, which is an attitude that generally tends to make bullying him not really that fun, differently from Sayo who can't openly react to it... which sadly is an attitude that invites more bullying.
Also Battler hints to the fact in those 6 years he suffered and that he's still upside down... but it's so vague many forgets about it.

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Originally Posted by Lombardest

That provides a mystery explanation to how Ange got that revelation before reading the diary itself. Maybe the employees at the hospital found it and she heard someone reading it aloud.

Very likely I'll say Ange found the diary after visiting Eva as she's supposedly the only one who can open it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardest

However that still makes me wonder how did she write about events where she wasn't present and some of the characters thoughts. Some could be imagined to a certain extent but, Battler getting nostalgic about Shannon... There's something off about that being present, once again I'm not sure what is part of the contents and what is a meta narrative. A theory is that Tohya got in contact with Eva at some point after the incident, or he just told her in the island everything he had witnessed. That would only amount to the things he actually witnessed though, they didn't saw how George's proposal went or the murders of the servants and cousins... Unless....

Well, the Teaparty requires more than just Eva's diary to be fully true.
The diary can cover what Eva saw but then we need a source for what Shannon & George saw (their meeting), for what Kyrie saw (when she kills people in the mansion), for what Rudolf saw (when he kills George), for what Battler saw and thought (when he talks with Jessica and realizes he's a bit jealous of George).
So it can be that the Teaparty isn't fully true because all that wasn't in the diary was made up by Bern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

The problem with an animated version would be that it'd need an immense amount of episodes. EP8 as it is in the VN alone would probably clock in at something around 40 episodes and that only if the battles are kept short. The PS3 voice track on auto-read clocks in at something around 16 hours (960min divided by an average runtime of 24min per episode lands you at 40 episodes), add to that the addition of CotGW, the new chapters in the Golden Land, more lines spoken in the finale and you'd probably get somewhere around a two season anime (52 episodes)...and that totally leaves out the fact that scenerey shots, that can be created with a few lines or one panel, need to be set up and left running for a few seconds in an anime.

The way that EP8 was in the VN, I'd have said that there is a lot of content that could be cut for time, but the manga made sure to make all of it meaningful in some way.

Yes, my same point. Unless they divide Chiru in more series or make it longer it would be hard to fit everything into it... thought it would be interesting if they were to animate confession as a separate OAV series...

unsuspectingvisitor · 2015-01-30, 13:30

Speaking of EP7 tea party, there's a lot of things that i find wrong in it. First, is that they solve the freaking epitaph, the same epitaph that they tried to solve for many years even before the incident started and failed miserably. how miraculous is that? that they manage to solve it overnight. Next, we see Eva and Hideyoshi accidentally killing both krauss and natsuhi while both of battler's parents are depicted as merciless killers. Im sensing that who ever wrote this thing is trying so hard to make Eva as innocent as possible while blaming all of the killing on battler's parents. Third thing is the guns, why do they each have one again? and all of those are even loaded which is ridiculous. Lastly, the bomb exploded. what's the point of doing that? It just makes Eva even more suspicious and hiding all the evidence through an explosion is a typical move for a criminal. In the end, this story just doesn't feel right, its so far from to the truth and unrealistic at best.

haguruma · 2015-01-30, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

First, is that they solve the freaking epitaph, the same epitaph that they tried to solve for many years even before the incident started and failed miserably. how miraculous is that?

Actually not that miraculous, since it has been made clear since the very beginning that the adults never took the epitaph much seriously. They each tried to solve it in their own way, but they didn't actually try very hard to understand it. The only person who really put effort into it was the one in the most financially awkward situation, Rosa. But she is also the one who has probably spent the least time with their father and thus wouldn't be as conscious about certain aspects, like him considering Taiwan his true homeland or actual events happening during the childhood of at least the oldest two, Krauss and Eva.

The epitaph had only been made known to them in April 1984, and by 1985 they were too busy fighting about the actual inheritance then chasing after some rumored treasure that most of them doubtet even existed.
It needed the ingniting spark given by Sayo's letter to actually make them put their head together, mainly out of fear of losing their money

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Next, we see Eva and Hideyoshi accidentally killing both krauss and natsuhi while both of battler's parents are depicted as merciless killers.

Well, it is never made clear how accidental the deat of Natsuhi really was. We had the scene in EP1 with Eva threatening to shoot Natsuhi and the scene in EP3 where Eva's gun discharging blinds Jessica...both shows that Eva doesn't really have herself under control. The manga makes it very clear though that it was Krauss trying to shoot while the gun was pushed back at him...I still wouldn't call it a total accident on Hideyoshi's side.

Yes, the merciless nature of Kyrie and Rudolph is likely overplayed, both by Eva's state of mind and by the interpretation we are given, but they did kill people, because of money and because they felt they could.

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Third thing is the guns, why do they each have one again? and all of those are even loaded which is ridiculous.

That is explained and I don't know why you wouldn't mention this. Beatrice prepared the guns to either kill them all herself or together with any form of accomplicee. It's just much easier to have a large amount of guns ready.

Quote:

Lastly, the bomb exploded. what's the point of doing that? It just makes Eva even more suspicious and hiding all the evidence through an explosion is a typical move for a criminal.

We haven't yet heard an official claim on who decided to set the bomb. If Sayo set it before she left the room to seal her catbox, if Eva set it to protect the family's honor, if Battler and Sayo decided to set it to protect the family, if Kyrie set it to be free of blame...

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In the end, this story just doesn't feel right, its so far from to the truth and unrealistic at best.

And yet, this is all truth.

jjblue1 · 2015-01-30, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Actually not that miraculous, since it has been made clear since the very beginning that the adults never took the epitaph much seriously. They each tried to solve it in their own way, but they didn't actually try very hard to understand it. The only person who really put effort into it was the one in the most financially awkward situation, Rosa. But she is also the one who has probably spent the least time with their father and thus wouldn't be as conscious about certain aspects, like him considering Taiwan his true homeland or actual events happening during the childhood of at least the oldest two, Krauss and Eva.

Also they never tried to join forces in solving it. Everyone did it on their own. According to Ep 3, even if it's Eva who apparently solves it (or very likely it's handed the solution), each of them had a bit of the knowledge necessary to solve it but not the whole. Eva apparently manages to piece the solution together after hearing everyone else... Rosa will also do the same although a bit later than Eva.

So maybe the key to solving the epitaph so easily is just teamwork.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, it is never made clear how accidental the deat of Natsuhi really was. We had the scene in EP1 with Eva threatening to shoot Natsuhi and the scene in EP3 where Eva's gun discharging blinds Jessica...both shows that Eva doesn't really have herself under control. The manga makes it very clear though that it was Krauss trying to shoot while the gun was pushed back at him...I still wouldn't call it a total accident on Hideyoshi's side.

I've re-read that part on the VN and found it terribly confusing in terms of how they got the guns. Although the general gist is that the guns are there and they grab them the scene is poorly described and felt rather odd and the part in which Natsuhi got shot is even more confusing as she was discussing with Rudolf, Rosa and Kyrie WHILE Eva and Hideyoshi were discussing with Krauss and then she's suddently jumping on Eva?
Ep 7 manga version is also poorly executed in this regard as we jump from chap 41 in which no one has guns to chap 42 in which Krauss has a gun (I can't see if the others have a gun as well) then put it down to pick the gold so we see that Eva, Rosa and Kyrie have a gun then Krauss has a gun again, they're clearly divided in two groups like the VN described them (Eva, Krauss and Hideyoshi on a side, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Rosa and Kyrie on the other side) then suddently Natsuhi is shot (she's not shown jumping on Eva) and honestly, if it wasn't for Eva claiming she didn't do it on purpose I would have thought more likely it was Kyrie or Rosa who shot her considering the situation.

At least Ep 8 adds a scene in whcih Natsuhi jumped on Eva, making more logic that Eva would shot her by mistake.

What however the VN stressed out really well was that Eva, starting from when they began solving the epitaph, was in such a strong emotional state it's not really surprising she ended up pushing a trigger, willingly or unwillingly.

However... that's all. Really, I was hoping for Ep 7 manga version to handle this scene much, much better. This is another of the things that disappointed me in Ep 7. I could almost say that Ryukishi was so focused on making Ep 8 awesome that neglected Ep 7, apart for a couple of things here and there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yes, the merciless nature of Kyrie and Rudolph is likely overplayed, both by Eva's state of mind and by the interpretation we are given, but they did kill people, because of money and because they felt they could.

Well, if the Teaparty from Ep 7 is based on Eva's interpretation of the facts it's bound to be biased toward Eva and Hideyoshi and totally unforgiving toward Rudolf and Kyrie (and Rosa and Krauss also as they look complete jerks even if they don't get to kill anyone).
Add to this that Kyrie and Rudolf remain catboxes in their motivations. They had debt with the mafia if I'm not wrong so they might have felt if they didn't grab all that money they would have been turned into sushi so maybe it wasn't just greed but desperation and lack of trust in Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa (everyone seemed trigger happy). Kyrie claims that she's merely the one who reached for first the conclusion only one of them must survive, implying she firmly believe the others would have tried to kill her and Rudolf as well.
Killing everyone else... is pretty horrible from them but at that point they might have felt so cornered they stopped to think straight.

Surely they weren't good people... but maybe they too like everyone in Umineko were pushed to take the wrong choices by circumstances not by an inerently purely evil nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

That is explained and I don't know why you wouldn't mention this. Beatrice prepared the guns to either kill them all herself or together with any form of accomplicee. It's just much easier to have a large amount of guns ready.

Yes, it was explained as such even if later on we were told the idea was to hid them in strategical points... so it feels a bit weird they're still there... but maybe Beatrice wanted to hid them only later instead than in advance.
It's awfully convenient she hadn't done it yet but well, it's not illogical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

We haven't yet heard an official claim on who decided to set the bomb. If Sayo set it before she left the room to seal her catbox, if Eva set it to protect the family's honor, if Battler and Sayo decided to set it to protect the family, if Kyrie set it to be free of blame...

Well, in the teaparty it was said Kyrie set it to hide evidence (maybe they planned to escape from the island and pretend they died in the explosion?), Eva thought about stopping it then decided to let it set so as again hide evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

And yet, this is all truth.

Yup, it is, but I also think it needed to be streamlined better, which was why I was so hoping Ep 7 manga version would do a better work with it and was so disappointed when I saw that wasn't the case.
I understand Eva might have reported the facts in her diary in a confusing manner as she was under heavy emotions when they happened and they also scarred her but as she doesn't come out as the narrator the scene just felt poorly told by a third party narrator.

Last but not least as the thread for the video is closed (no idea why) I thought about posting my new insane creation here.
Forgive me if it's not the most proper place... but the most appropriate thread doesn't let me post anymore...

2015-01-23, 10:18	Link #34784
haguruma Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Germany Age: 39	After real life eating me up again (it truly is hard to be out of university...even graduate school gave me so much free time), I had time to do a translation of the two chapters that have come out again since I last posted. The first one is pretty much the same as the VN, just with nice visuals backing it up, but chapter 33...damn is it a good one. Spoiler for Chapter 33 DEATH: Battler La... Lambdadeltaaaaaa!!! This sacrifice ways too heavy Ange: The key... The seal on the key is finally...!! Battler: Lambdadelta, this is all thanks to you! Because you fought so bravely for us... ...... Let's return Ange! To the Golden Land...! Ange: Uh... The escape crests we got from Lambda... Bern: My... You here as well, Ange? I thought I had done my best to grind your soul to bits What a shame! Never thought I'd ever see you again Battler: BERNKASTEL!!! Bern: A real shame You have nowhere to run If Lambda had made use of her time a little more cleverly, it might have gotten you those 5 seconds That would have given you the chance to get the key and escape to the Golden Land But with a stupid master like Lambda, it's no wonder her miko would be a little slow AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA Featherine: ...Oh Bern: ....uh.... .....? What? What... just now? Battler: Take that back Bern: !! pu... ... punch... ..... I was punched?! Me?! This lowlife's fist was allowed...to touch...the cheek of the Witch of Miracles?? ...... Ouch... OUWOUWOUUUCH AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUH Featherine: I'm surprised It's been a few hundred years since you showed any kind of pain Battler: Does it hurt? The pain you dealt by ridiculing one of my comrades Is far greater Bern: ........ ...comrades? You talking about her? You are nothing but playthings to her!! You know that she just used you to get an outcome that would please her?! !!! Battler: UWAAAAAAAAAAAH RAAAAAAAAAAAAH Bern: !! Wh...why The likes of mere pieces can keep up with me...?! Did I overdo it in my fight with Lambda?! Battler: To her we are nothing but characters in a story But still she risked her own life for us... Bern: Gaa.. argh... Battler: Take these words against our brave comrade back!! Bern: Urgh blurgh Blu... uuuuuurgh Ah... AAAH AAH AUAURORAAAAAAAA!!! Your miko is being cornered?! What are you standing around for? Do something!!! Featherine: I am very sorry, but I am busy writing down Lady Lambdadelta's last stand I cannot lend you a hand now But you two can lend her a hand Ange: ! Oniichan!! Bern: Aha AHAHAHAHA These cats here are the ruined remains of what were once the protagonists of games, just like you! Every one of them was granted the grace of Aurora, by amassing fame in the heroic stories they were cast in!! Every one of them fought, swearing on their countries, they stars and even the life of the universe itself!! The only thing that seperates you as a main character from them is your little sister as well as that tomfoolery with that illusionary witch!!! Eat this and drop dead!! Eat dust you lowlifes!! Ange: O... Oniichan!! Onii ... chan Bern: Wha... Why... in... WHAT THE HELL?! YOU STUPID CATS!!! HE HASN'T EVEN GOT A SCRATCH?! Featherine: ..... My miko, I am afraid this is beyond even the power of these cats Noone can interfere with their story now Bern: WHAT?!? Featherine: These guys are the protagonists of countless worlds...but to the story of Battler and his people, they are mere outsiders They do not have the capabilities to enter into their tale This is their story Only they are allowed to weave it on Bern: ....ngh!! Featherine: My miko, there is the special clause that allows only Gamemasters to weave a story on a gameboard As soon as that rule was installed, an unimportant little writer like myself has to follow and respect it, thus I will return to my seat as a spectator Bern: You... you suck as a master!! Featherine: Battler! I apologize that my miko has ridiculed your comrade And I understood that the right to weave your game lies with you as a gamemaster But because of the coincidence of you two setting up a gameboard at the same time my miko is a gamemaster in your game as well It rarely ever happens for there to be two gamemasters on one gameboard, so I celebrate this miracle Because I am sure that the end of your tale will be a befitting one I shall bear witness as you fight over this game as equal gamemasters I promise to return you all to the Golden Land if you manage to defeat my miko Ange: !! Battler: Stand up, Bernkastel I will beat you and return to the Golden Land and then send Ange off into her future! Bern: Tehe... Hihihihi! AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHA HAHAHA Erika, make your report You're free to speak Ange: Furudo... Erika... Erika: I am mortified to disturb you at such a time, my master Bern: I'm sorry too, Erika I made you wait even though you brought home such an urgent report Erika: Rejoice, my master! I report to you that the Golden Land has been vanquished! Ange: ...LIES!! Beato and the others wouldn't loose to you!!! The Golden Land has been completely destroyed and all of it has sunken into the ocean of nothingness What foolish humans they were, we destroyed everything down to it's illusionary denizens Ange: LIES!! I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!! Erika: Then let me show you proof The heart of the ruler of the Golden Land, Beatrice Ange: !!! Be... Beato... Bern: Even in this state she is still struggling about Tehe...you're so cute Beatrice Somebody might set up the gameboard called you again at one point... You firmly believe in that, don't you? Ange: It...it's alright Oniichan We haven't seen Beato actually being defeated... This is just some tactic by Erika to stiffle our courage... or maybe Beato pretends to be dead and went into hiding... Beato...with all the others... The Golden Land just cannot be destroyed...!! Bern: You're right. As long as a witch of the future believes so, something like that might be possible ...so let me make it easy for you Beatrice died in October 1986. The Golden Land that she created was completely wiped out. All your relatives who were kept alive by the Golden Land were wiped out as well Your father and mother and of course Battler will never again return to where you are to call out your name Even to a witch of the future, with her freedom of interpretation and overwriting events, exists a truth she cannot rewrite no matter how she struggles That is "death" You cannot overturn any concept of death, be it physical or psychological This is the one blade of truth that allows a witch of the past to destroy a witch of the future Ange: .... ..... ah... Ah... ah... ah... ah... .... Battler: Put up with it, Ange You did decide to accept it all that you would live even if nobody were to come back...right?! Ange: I know... I already acknowledged that nobody would come back to me... that everybody died on that day and I could never meet you again... and that I should go on living despite all that... But At the end of this long game we could finally forgive each other I finally arrived at their resting place for them to be denied even a resting place, because the world won't allow them to have one What salvation is there... for them... for me? Bern: And even that brother you are whispering your pain to now is already dead 12 years! That is how long you waited, believing in his survival All that hope was simply pointless Battler: Stop crying, Ange! STOP IT! WHAT KIND OF WITCH ARE YOU?! Ange: ....eh.... Battler: The you who lives in the future is able to overcome our fates, right!? Ange: ....... ......? Battler: And you are a reaper! Flickering the truth of the past in front of Ange's eyes to rob her of her future And then you flung the Book of One Truth at her, to give her that final push that made her step over the edge of a roof into the ocean of nothingness You are a reaper who ripped the hope to live from Ange and lured her towards death! I will now free Ange from the curse that is you! Come at me, Bernkastel!! You shall not block out the radiance of the future!!! Bern: AHAHAHAHAHA Humans are pitiful beings, walking towards their backs to the future, always gazing at the past This is why they fail to notice the simplest pitfalls and stumble tragically and comically!! Very well, let's end this I will battle you following the rules of your game But since I am quite short-tempered I will put out an overwhelming number of questions to end this in an instance I will reap that lowlife called Battler in front of Ange's eyes!! Spoiler for Chapter 33 RESSURECTION: Bern Well then, according to the rules of your game, I will question you about these locked room tricks!! I stocked up on so many locked room mysteries current and classic, from East and West, on my journey through the ocean of Fragments! But I am not as easygoing as Beato, and I will throw all of them at you at once! I told you, didn't I?! I love games that I can definitely win! If you can't answer immediately You will die! Ange Oniichan!!!! Bern Ahaha Haha Haha Hahahaha Ange It's no use, Oniichan! You have to run!!! You can't win against Bernkastel!!! Battler … Just as there is no mystery that can't be solved There is no inescapable destiny! Erika: Ahahahahaha Just as expected from the guy who reads a hundred books a year Just looking at you I can see answers rising as fast as new mysteries! But those are just a few dozen books in several hundreds If you are expecting a miracle I will have to dissappoint you! Ange-san Beato has been completely eradicated, right down to her Golden Land That has been declared in Red even You do understand what that means, right?! It means that everyone of them has dissapeared Your relatives who were kept alive by the Golden Land as well as all those trashy illusions In other words, any chance of some ally showing up to appear here and save you doesn't exist in any form Ange: Onii... chan Bern: You wriggle away quite skillfully, little worm! You think you are good at orthodox mysteries? So how about some weird mysteries? It must be such bliss to be swallowed up by and die within the mysteries you love so much! Ange: Oniichan...!! It's no use...run away...!! Oniichan!!! Battler: ...this is the sight of me that I wanna leave you with! As if I could leae you, who is about to step into her future, with the sight of her brother running away. ...Watch carefully, Ange. And think about it. Ange: About what... Battler: You lived those 12 years, always demanding the truth But...that wasn't truly your strongest wish, was it?! Ange: My... ...strongest...wish? Battler: I prepared this last game, wanting to protect your wishes and hopes But you ended up opening the Book of the One Truth and learned of the worst reality. That is how you ended up loosing the hope that I bet on until now. But listen. Is it really all just “lost“ to you? What is it that you “gained“ by learning the One Truth? What is it that is left to you now? Ange: Onii... Oniichan... Oniichan...... NOOO Battler Oniichan...!! Don't leave me!! Oniichan! Oniichan!! Bern: That was quite a boring last stand. I guess this is checkmate. Ange: I need to stand I need to fight But my legs they just won't move I have truly lost everything now Everything has been denied Listen, Oniichan I was wishing for everyone to return to me. With that thought alone it was that I lived through those twelve years. And at the end of my strength, I let go of that hope and instead of the hope I let go of, I demanded the truth of that day. The truth I attained held nothing but despair in store. When I arrived in the Golden Land as if it was supposed to happen, I was touched by everyone's true emotions... But now even that Golden Land is... crushed under a heel and utterly denied. As soon as the diary ends up being made public the Fragment that Oniichan left with me... that Halloween Party... they will be sneered at as absolutely impossible and surely end up as waste in the ocean of nothingness. All their smiling faces, their regrets, and their repentance... All of it... All of it is already lost Nobody will come back alive It is really just me who stands before this cruel reality Battler (voice): Is it really all just “lost“ to you? What is it that you “gained“ by learning the One Truth? What is it that is left to you now? Ange: Ah... if it was really lost then why does my chest burn with such intensity? All of them who keep shining at the bottom of my heart... Beato/Rudolph/Kyrie/Maria/Eva (spirits): Live, Ange! Battler (spirit): “I am not in your future“ But I will always have your back and protect you... because I am constantly praying for your happiness, together with all of them! Ange: That's right, I didn't loose them And only I know... Only I, who received their true hearts... Bern: ...... What is...?! Ange: By denying all illusion and just continuing to stare at the bare reality, I will just end up choking... But just turning your back on a cruel reality and living in an illusion is no different than dying either... So in order to stand... In order to create the strength to live through reality, I need to rely on that power... Bern: Ange?! What is that brightness... .... !!? Battler: ........ That was quite a nice warm-up So let's get it on Bernkastel Let's go Round 2!! Bern: BATTLER?! !? Erika: That's impossible!! The dead can't come back to life... Bern: Even though Battler is dead?! Impossible!! Why could you be revived?! Ange: Oniichan... ...he's alive.... Bern: With the Red Truth!! I proclaim that Battler is dead!! So why?! What is this??!! Battler: Well Might this be a “miracle“ then? Bern: ....ngh .....you Don't you dare and speak of miracles in front of the very Witch of Miracles!! Miracles cannot occur within this merciless truth!! There exists not even one confidant in your life!! So just DIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! Ange: They exist. They are all protecting me. Beato: Unorthodox? What a cliche!! All those tricks are! I already read them all and grew tired of them long ago!! Bern: BEATO!?! HOW?! Even though I proclaimed your death with the Red Truth...!!! Ange: Your Red Truth... ammounts to what? Bern: The Red Truth is absolute!! It is the complete truth that absolutely cannot overturned however hard you struggle!! This place lies outside Beato's domain! I smashed her heart!! There is no way by which the deceased can be revived!! Ange: I... don't accept that... Even if the whole world talks of all their deaths... Even if they deny my family... Even if it is thrust at me as the one One Truth... They are all alive...! I know now! I never lost them! If you say that the Golden Land perished, then I will create it within my own heart... a place where they can all rest in peace! No matter how hard you try to deny it, at least I will understand my own family! Their regrets, their pain, their wishes, their true form hidden behind a disheartening truth. How light and shadow mixed together and created the twilight that is my family! Right here they are all alive! I can never abandon this! As long as I live in the future, they will always be with me! All of their souls will always be at my side...! Spoiler for HENSHIN: Bern: Uh...!! Uaah... Erika: Bu...but Isn't she just a simple witch of the future? Isn't she just a powerless witch who can do nothing but shed tears of regret...?! Ange-Beato: I am the Golden Witch, Ange-Beatrice My titles are Golden and Endless and Ressurection Maria: You finally...became a White Witch, Ange! Virgilia: Yes, your current shape is a witch's proper form... Bern: AAARGH AWAY WITH YOU, YOU PIECE OF TRASH!! THERE'S NO WAY I'D ACCEPT THIS!! Ange-Beato: Now matter how often you kill any of them with the Red Truth, they will always revive at my side! Your Red Truth cannot harm my world! Bern: WHAT IS A WITCH?! NOTHING BUT A HUMAN WHO HAS ESCAPED DEATH!! I HAVE A WEDGE FOR YOU TOO!!! USHIROMIYA ANGE DEFINITELY DIES IN 1998!! Ange-Beato: !! ...... I made a promise to my brother... I cannot die yet... Even if I should end up dead in '98...I will live the remaining time until then all the more fully...!! That is why I will not fall here...!! The eagle of Ushiromiya does not waver and it does not lose heart!! Bern: ...........ngh A golden...eagle...?! Ungh.... Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead! Ushiromiya Krauss is dead! Ushiromiya Natsuhi is dead! Wh...why You wanna tell me this is Endless Nine?! One that even the Red Truth cannot pass through?! What is this Golden Truth?! What is your Golden Truth...that it can win against the Red Truth...??!!? Ange: A heart that trusts That is “our“ consensus. Against the truth that we agreed on and share, even your Red Truth is powerless You see, true and proper magic can only be used by those who understood to accept reality You cannot break my heart with Red now that it has overcome the truth!! Bern: Uuuuh Uuuaaaargh I... I won't... accept... Neveer AAAAAAH!! Battler: Farewell, Bernkastel Ange-Beato: Checkmate

2015-01-23, 15:23	Link #34785
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	yea, the EP8 manga is infinitely better, holy shit. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2015-01-25, 20:10	Link #34789
Ayu-ayu a.k.a. Akari_House Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near Seattle Age: 53	I wasn't sure until reading Haguruma's translation (thanks again...so exciting!) of the latest chapters, but now my current theory is that Ange's "death" is what the rest of the world will see, but she lives on in her new identity that we know from the end of the "it was really magic" epilogue. Her "death" mirrors that of Battler's (and maybe Beatrice's?) in that it is real as far as the rest of the world will be concerned. That said, I'm not sure how much of her journey, if any of it, happened, considering the other events in that part of the story. Of course, I'm totally prepared for something else...we still don't even know for certain which epilogue is the "true" ending. "The sea of fragments is vast..." I'm really looking forward to seeing how the manga concludes things. I have a feeling R07 has some juicy new treats in store for the epilogue as well. Oh, and I was pretty surprised to see some of the new interplay between Bern and Featherine (particularly her own insolence to Featherine). Plus that bit of backstory for Erika's cats could well describe her, too, even if she is a Witch. __________________ --- (MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)

2015-01-28, 01:12	Link #34792
Lombardest Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2015	Sigh, the manga really feels more appropriate in this part and the one where Ange wakes up after her "suicide"... You know, long ago I thought that people were bashing EP8 for it's message of wanting to keep her family alive in her heart, forgiving them and herself, not giving up on the hope of seeing them again one day. Everything is an illusion, may as well stick to the one you feel that will make you a better person... But now I see it was for the execution. I just reread that part in the VN and that line where Beato apologized for "throwing those bottles half-jokingly" just feels so wrong. That was only allowed while they were in the happy fragment where the bottles were a game, when B&B were trying to relief her with the knowledge that his family would have wanted that kind of happiness, and it's what they want for her. Here it's... is something that could have well been in the VN even without the existence of Confession of TGW, actually I have a slight issue with Confession for it's implications regarding Tohya's struggle to remember. If he had come into contact with that, the forgeries have no reason to exist since they were made as a way to help him remember, Dawn would lose a great deal of it's purpose in consequence. So that only makes me believe more in the theory of Tohya giving the ideas and Ikuko making the mysteries without giving him the answers, she has been pretty insistent on all the "your reasoning has more value than just the truth" thing, and after proving that he realized everything (Dawn), she thought there was no problem in revealing the Diary anymore. Anyway I got sidetracked, back to the scene... she HAD to confront them after reading the diary, and she HAD to answer for all her guilt. I know that was the original intention but all this refusal to "give the answer sheet" resulted in something so self mocking. Those messages contained her suffering and her desperate attempts to reach out to someone for not having the courage to talk directly. They were charged with indecision and remorse, so using the word Joke it's......... geeeeeeeeeez. It's really the one mandatory change that this story needed, it's impossible for me now to say it would be complete without that revision. Regarding other changes I have more lenient opinions, here's a quick summary: - I was perfectly ok with Willard having a more firm last stand while mocking the Goats' "thinking is irrelevant" mindset, but Battler's dialogue felt more appropiate going straight to defending the purpose of the game with Golden. - The lixaxil duel with Erika had it's own charm for me, there was a certain consistency in Erika not getting to solve the other mysteries in the end and just fighting Battler on equal footing. This fall in badassery gets balanced with his moment of Gold Truth before but, despite revealing more, I'd still like to think the original was worth saving in some aspects. - Be them goats or shadow versions, they were still the same mindless beasts, if anything they were included due to the fanservice of Black Battler. But it was quite nice to see Beato getting enraged as a final way of saying "this is just fanservice people, the story itself says it was concieved by bored people that wanted fanservice, and you are stupid assholes if years after it's end you are taking it seriously", it gets it's significance now more than before, when it didn't have the feeding of the Ougon Musou games, that subvertion was so meta. - The working of the Twilight title in the dialogue and the symbolism in Ange's new form are AWESOME WELCOME BONUSES. Originally it was a scene where I really didn't feel the need for the text to be gold, the white talked of a golden glow and I just trusted in it, which in my opinion is the point of the Golden Truth. But this is great because it adds so much more, doesn't remove. Last edited by Lombardest; 2015-01-28 at 08:36.

2015-01-07, 02:42	Link #34781
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Wow, I am super enjoying the manga version of ep8, Ange's actions are finally starting to make some sort of sense

2015-01-19, 17:55	Link #34783
jjblue1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Honestly I would have loved a better explanation for Ep 6. No, not just how the logic error worked but how the plot of the mystery was meant to work. I mean, I can swallow that Erika was the murderer. There are hints that Erika might be a rather paranoid person. She calls herself a detective who was only searching for the proof of her boyfriend’s betrayal but if you check how she describes her searching for proofs… well, it’s a tad too meticulous for being normal. It’ll be actually interesting if her boyfriend in Prime NEVER CHEATED ON HER as her evidence was all circumstantial after all and Bern confirmed things in red using one of those stuffs I call ‘red tricks’ (it’s red but it works only on this gameboard, it’s red but it’s actually not meaning the most obvious thing, it’s red but hey, if you read between the lines it doesn’t really prove what you were thinking it did) but the trauma of being betrayed by him only worsened her paranoia. Also in ep 6 is hinted Erika might have a disturbed personality as she insults the adults, basically claiming they’re idiots and has a fight with Maria. Although they’re apparently minor things, on the gameboard there was no reason for her to act in such a way. And so we get on Rokkenjima and Battler playfully tells her that she might end up killed by the witch. The people pretend to drop dead and Erika, afraid it’s a plan to actually murder her, mistakes the situation and end up murdering everyone to ‘make sure they’re really dead and therefore can’t do her any harm’. Erika can’t trust anyone after all and can believe only red. And here’s where I can buy she would murder people on the gameboard. Of course it can also be that Erika secretly solved the epitaph (we know from ep 5 she can do it) and decided to keep the gold for herself… but this would slightly go against her characterization as in Ep 5 she was described as not interested in the money. What becomes more troublesome buying is how MetaBattler knew that Erika wouldn’t use the detective authority. Erika, after all, had that option and if she had used it she either wasn’t the murderer or Ep 6 wasn’t Knox compliant. Yes, I’m aware that there’s a theory suggesting that Battler purposely created a setting in which a logic error could be created so as to push Beato to solve it and recover her memories but this would mean that not only he devised a plot in which an apparent logic error might be solved if Beatrice were to recover her memory but also had to make sure that Erika won’t do the detective proclamation or either he would have to revise his plot a lot as he should pick up another murderer. Of course it could be that Battler was carrying on two separate plots at the moment. We know that Featherine said he could switch from a plot to another. So if Erika wanted to be the culprit, fine by him. If Erika didn’t want to be the culprit, the culprit could be someone else… let’s say a random name like Kyrie. Yeah, totally random. Okay, let’s say himself as he pinned himself as the culprit in the previous episode also. After all it mattered little to him who was the culprit. What he wanted was to prove he understood Beato’s game and have Erika try to set up a logic error that could be solved by Beato only if she were to remember who she was. Likely he figured Erika would love trap him in a logic error as soon as he heard the name and as soon as Erika didn’t immediately make the detective proclamation he figured this meant she wasn’t going to make it and discharged the other potential culprit. Still, yes, Lambda was right, Battler wasn’t playing chess but poker, basically basing his whole game on guessing which would be the actions from the other parties. If Bern and Erika hadn’t aimed for a logic error or Bern had decided Erika could do the detective proclamation his whole plan would have crumbled before starting.

2015-01-25, 18:12	Link #34788
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	It really does make the title that much more meaningful. Classic Ryu to either expect us to realise Twilight is also a mix of light and shade and represents the people and the family, OR to retcon it later when he realised it was cool. I may be a bit slow, as when reading the VN I never really got what Ange gained from reading the one truth, I thought it was something to do with realising that she was the only one who could protect her family. But it is much more satisfying if it is about the fact that she broke from her fantasy, but also realised that she needed to overcome her reality. Speaking of which, do you guys believe her journey of discovery ever really happened? The fact Ange's life/death status centres on what happened after she jumped from the roof, and the line from Bern about how Ange was a witch for a short time from the moment she jumped off the building till the moment she hit the ground, kind of implies to me that Ange just found the book after Eva died, read it, and then had an internal struggle about what to do with her life.

2015-01-25, 22:52	Link #34790
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	I also liked that bit about death being permanent "physical or psychological" Nice save there Ryu

2015-01-28, 02:04	Link #34793
Lombardest Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2015	wait, i'm reading the translation that was posted in previous pages of EP 8 chap. 26: "p.6 Beato (flashback): Who was it who told me that I should "just write a love-letter saying 'I like you'"?! If you won't say anything then I will! No, I actually have something to tell her as myself! What Ange wishes for is neither consolation nor trickery! She wants the truth concerning us all! "Live"" When did this scene actually happen? Not the flashback.

2015-01-30, 13:30	Link #34798
unsuspectingvisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010	Speaking of EP7 tea party, there's a lot of things that i find wrong in it. First, is that they solve the freaking epitaph, the same epitaph that they tried to solve for many years even before the incident started and failed miserably. how miraculous is that? that they manage to solve it overnight. Next, we see Eva and Hideyoshi accidentally killing both krauss and natsuhi while both of battler's parents are depicted as merciless killers. Im sensing that who ever wrote this thing is trying so hard to make Eva as innocent as possible while blaming all of the killing on battler's parents. Third thing is the guns, why do they each have one again? and all of those are even loaded which is ridiculous. Lastly, the bomb exploded. what's the point of doing that? It just makes Eva even more suspicious and hiding all the evidence through an explosion is a typical move for a criminal. In the end, this story just doesn't feel right, its so far from to the truth and unrealistic at best.