Character Discussion - Shirley

[GundamAce]

BTW, nice new sig, Nobodyman9! I really like it!

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by GundamAce

BTW, nice new sig, Nobodyman9! I really like it!

Ah, well give your thanks to Airi since she's the one who made it. Glad you like it

[ginran]

Originally Posted by GundamAce

BTW, nice new sig, Nobodyman9! I really like it!

I second that! its a nice set~

I feel wierd not having Shirley as my avie! XD but I really liked this one my friend made for me, I hadda use it. lol, but I still have her on my profile pic, so I feel a better about it.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by ginran

I second that! its a nice set~

I feel wierd not having Shirley as my avie! XD but I really liked this one my friend made for me, I hadda use it. lol, but I still have her on my profile pic, so I feel a better about it.

It's all good ginran. Who is that anyway? It looks like an Arrancar.

[Kid Ying]

Wow, Ginran was with that Shirley avatar for so long that now it looks like a different person posting, hehe.

And your avatar is very nice, Nobby! I like that kind of pic, Shirley looks even cuter, hehe.

[ginran]

@ Nobodyman: yep, he's an Arrancar! his name is Ggio Vega.

@ Kid: sorry for the confusion!

[Nobodyman9]

@ginran: Ah yes, I remember him now. I can't keep track of all those Bleach characters

@Kid Ying: Huh, you really think that's a cute pic of Shirley? Hmm, yeah I suppose it is (of course, all pics of her are cute ) And LOL, "Nobby"? XD

[Sol Falling]

On the topic of whether or not Lelouch loved Shirley:

As I've stated in the Kallen thread, I don't quite believe that any of Lelouch's feelings ever reached the level of 'love'. Love (well, romantic love; although to go into my opinions on that (romantic vs. platonic) would be a bit off-topic) is an instinctual attractive force with enough power to give an entire life meaning (I won't bother to qualify this as my own opinion). That Lelouch continually chose other meanings (revenge, redemption by death), to the point of conciously pushing away his emotions and people he treasured, says to me that Lelouch did not love -- that he first overlooked and then denied it.

On the topic of whether or not Lelouch was attracted to Shirley and would have accepted her as his girlfriend (barring the overriding inteference of other 'meanings of life' like revenge or redemption): of course; it would only be natural. Lelouch, by virtue of having no prior conception or experience of being in love, inevitably would be interested in the first decent thing to come along (unfortunately, this also means that if that didn't work out, he'd inevitably then be interested in the next; and so on and so on). And, well, Shirley was that first: the first person he kissed, the first person to confess she loved him. I'd say the issue of Lelouch's attraction to Shirley is pretty damn undeniable.

But as I said, that doesn't really mean exclusitivity. As I don't believe Lelouch really cared about love, there was no exclusitivity (for failed relationships) in the first place. I guess this is how I see it: incidental romantic attraction for people without experience, especially in idyllic fictional contexts such as anime (i.e. where everyone is pretty), is only natural. Given the 'trigger' of their respective kisses (as well as Kallen's plain ol' submissive and fangirlish initial attitude towards him) it is very probable that Lelouch considered each of the 'big three' romantic interests. The reason nothing ever came of it, though, was that Lelouch was always lead away from love by his other 'meanings of life': the purposes of his existance must obviously trump some twinkling of romantic attraction. What makes Shirley notable to me, then (i.e. what makes her more than essentially another irrelevancy to be pushed away in pursuit of his established goals), was her potential to change those meanings that Lelouch lived by.

To clarify that: the path that Lelouch chose was always the path (meaning of life) which rejected love (that of 'pushing away what you hold dear'; of making an enemy of the world). Shirley was the only one who had the potential to change that, to lead Lelouch onto a path where it would be companionship rather than solitude which would empower him. Shirley was the only one who could have made love fit into Lelouch's existence. That's why, despite the non-exclusivity of Lelouch's romantic interest (or rather, the absence of Lelouch's love), a relationship with Shirley is the only one that I've found credible.

Ah. I guess this piece would be my direct commentary on shipping, then. The previous one was purely an analysis on Shirlulu; this one is how that applies to Lelouch's relationships in general.


edit:

lol, 'Nobby'. Yeah, I like your new avy/sig too, Nobodyman.

edit2:

Also, please excuse any incoherency in the above post. I've read it over a couple times, but I still get the feeling that I'm not fully justifying some of my arguments. I'm half asleep from writing it, though, so this'll have to do.

[Nobodyman9]

Very nice post Sol. Again, you're analysis makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you 95%. As the for the remaining 5% however...

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As I've stated in the Kallen thread, I don't quite believe that any of Lelouch's feelings ever reached the level of 'love'. That Lelouch continually chose other meanings (revenge, redemption by death), to the point of conciously pushing away his emotions and people he treasured, says to me that Lelouch did not love -- that he first overlooked and then denied it.

Yes, I'll agree that Lelouch did forego love in pursuit of his larger goals (as many of us have observed already) but I just can't help but feel that, perhaps the feelings of love were there, except he just decided to ignore, deny, or push them away.

Given the 'trigger' of their respective kisses (as well as Kallen's plain ol' submissive and fangirlish initial attitude towards him) it is very probable that Lelouch considered each of the 'big three' romantic interests.

I'd say Shirley and Kallen are very possible, but according the official guidebook Lelouch never saw C.C. as a lover or romantic interest, so we can rule her out.

lol, 'Nobby'. Yeah, I like your new avy/sig too, Nobodyman. Also, please excuse any incoherency in the above post. I've read it over a couple times, but I still get the feeling that I'm not fully justifying some of my arguments. I'm half asleep from writing it, though, so this'll have to do.

Ah, thanks And hey, don't worry about it. I know what that's like (writing when you're half asleep) and I think I understood pretty well what you were trying to say, so you got your point across.

[Ekul]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Love (well, romantic love; although to go into my opinions on that (romantic vs. platonic) would be a bit off-topic) is an instinctual attractive force with enough power to give an entire life meaning (I won't bother to qualify this as my own opinion). That Lelouch continually chose other meanings (revenge, redemption by death), to the point of conciously pushing away his emotions and people he treasured, says to me that Lelouch did not love -- that he first overlooked and then denied it.

I disagree. Infatuation is instinctual. Romantic love is pondered, and has more to do with the desire for intimacy and an attachment to the recipient personally. For instance, any show where two characters hate each other but are attracted is not romance, it is infatuation. This is probably the basis for the creators indicating that Lelouch did not romantically love CC, he did not desire intimacy.

Lelouch was not really infatuated with Shirley. Whether he wished for her intimately or not, he still had to keep her out of his life or risk her life. Her death brought a deep despair, which indicates that he probably did have an attachment to her.

[Sol Falling]

This doesn't really seem to have anything to do with my argument/Shirley, but eh... (edit lol: I managed to find a way to make it work)

Attachment to others and a desire for intimacy is instinctual. There's really no good reason for it aside from being human (as in the human animal). I do agree that love requires a degree of awareness and acceptance of one's own feelings, but that doesn't make it any less an animal reaction.

With regards to C.C., if the words were 'lover' or 'romantic interest', that's an even lower bar than actual 'love'. But I'm probably going by a different definition than the creators for 'romantically interested'. Basically, what I'm talking about is an awareness of acceptance for possible romantic interactions, not an intention towards them. The question, from Lelouch's perspective, is: "If she were to confess to/come onto me, and the act of accepting her were connected to no negative consequences, would I be interested?". My assumption is that for Lelouch, his answer would be "yes" for all three of them. Why? Because Lelouch is a healthy, presumably heterosexual teenage male without any romantic commitments or aspirations. The idea is then that even just this (the knowledge of not being sexually repulsed by a person) would have some degree of potential (even if unrealized) to affect his actions.

Basically, I think that's all the whole "who did Lelouch love/percieve romantically?" debate amounts to. He didn't find any of them sexually repulsive. He would have gone with any of them if it happened to happen, but ultimately he never bothered. Infatuation or attachment or whatever, the plain outcome is a tie, so all the debate on this issue is basically irrelevant in my opinion. Rather, the logical next step is a simple 'who could have made Lelouch bother?', and for that, 'Shirley' is the only answer.

[Gordy Lechance]

Aww, poor Shirley-chan. She was easily the cutest and nicest girl after Nunnally-chan in the story.

I don't care if he did save Lerouch, damn that FagRag Rolo to hell for murdering someone as sweet and adorable as she is!!

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Basically, I think that's all the whole "who did Lelouch love/percieve romantically?" debate amounts to. He didn't find any of them sexually repulsive. He would have gone with any of them if it happened to happen, but ultimately he never bothered. Infatuation or attachment or whatever, the plain outcome is a tie, so all the debate on this issue is basically irrelevant in my opinion. Rather, the logical next step is a simple 'who could have made Lelouch bother?', and for that, 'Shirley' is the only answer.

Now I have to disagree. Shirley is certainly not the only answer to that question. He teases Kallen about it more than enough, after all, which is more than can be said for Shirley. Plus, whether you think of it as a detriment or a plus, I seriously doubt he would have propositioned anyone as he did Kallen in Turn 7.

Shirley, I will readily admit, certainly had a chance of being the answer that question, but by the same token she is certainly not the only answer.

[snowdevil_crow]

Hey, Gordy, watch your language. FagRag is kind of offensive.

@morbos, I agree, I don't think he would have said the same thing to Shirley, for example, whether because he'd feel too guilty about it or what. *still think he completely deserved that slap* Though he may or may not have propositioned CC like that, I don't know. In the state he was in... *shrug*

If we're imagining that Lelouch never started the rebellion and lived an ordinary life as a high school student, I think he would have ended up with Shirley. He would never have had a chance or reason to get to know Kallen (and, ha, she would have died in the first episode... okay, disregarding that), and I don't think he'd have had much of a reason to want to.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This doesn't really seem to have anything to do with my argument/Shirley, but eh... (edit lol: I managed to find a way to make it work)

Attachment to others and a desire for intimacy is instinctual. There's really no good reason for it aside from being human (as in the human animal). I do agree that love requires a degree of awareness and acceptance of one's own feelings, but that doesn't make it any less an animal reaction.

With regards to C.C., if the words were 'lover' or 'romantic interest', that's an even lower bar than actual 'love'. But I'm probably going by a different definition than the creators for 'romantically interested'. Basically, what I'm talking about is an awareness of acceptance for possible romantic interactions, not an intention towards them. The question, from Lelouch's perspective, is: "If she were to confess to/come onto me, and the act of accepting her were connected to no negative consequences, would I be interested?". My assumption is that for Lelouch, his answer would be "yes" for all three of them. Why? Because Lelouch is a healthy, presumably heterosexual teenage male without any romantic commitments or aspirations. The idea is then that even just this (the knowledge of not being sexually repulsed by a person) would have some degree of potential (even if unrealized) to affect his actions.

Basically, I think that's all the whole "who did Lelouch love/percieve romantically?" debate amounts to. He didn't find any of them sexually repulsive. He would have gone with any of them if it happened to happen, but ultimately he never bothered. Infatuation or attachment or whatever, the plain outcome is a tie, so all the debate on this issue is basically irrelevant in my opinion. Rather, the logical next step is a simple 'who could have made Lelouch bother?', and for that, 'Shirley' is the only answer.

All right, when you say "who could have made Lelouch" I assume you mean who have made Lelouch bother to have a romantic relationship with them. That being the case, I'm afraid I may have to side with morbos on this. I mean, Lelouch did have their moments, you'd have to be blind to not see that (what you make of those moments is an entirely different matter)

So anyway, going by your definition of love and romance, I'm still going to say that C.C. has to be taken out of the picture simply because the staff said Lelouch never saw her as a lover (and I may be paraphrasing here) and, to me, that just eliminates her as a candidate. So that just leaves Shirley and Kallen. So could Lelouch/Kallen have happened? Possible. Could Lelouch/Shirley have happened? Possible, and I (highly) prefer it.

But I don't want to turn this into a contest between Shirley and Kallen. This is the Shirley thread, and the topic of this discussion in particular is whether or not Lelouch loved her. I think there's a good amount of evidence to argue that and I like to believe that he did. We can never know with an absolute since the staff purposefully left Lelouch's feelings ambiguous.

But as far as who could have made Lelouch bother to have a romantic relationship. Well, maybe Shirley could have if she had survived, and maybe Kallen could have if everything didn't turn to shit in Turn 18/19. But if you think it's Shirley, and only Shirley you're perfectly welcome to have your opinion. And that's all I'm gonna say. As a fellow Shirlulu fan and you presenting an argument that actually works in favor of our ship I find it hard to argue it any further.

[snowdevil_crow]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So anyway, going by your definition of love and romance, I'm still going to say that C.C. has to be taken out of the picture simply because the staff said Lelouch never saw her as a lover (and I may be paraphrasing here) and, to me, that just eliminates her as a candidate. So that just leaves Shirley and Kallen. So could Lelouch/Kallen have happened? Possible. Could Lelouch/Shirley have happened? Possible, and I (highly) prefer it.

I don't think that's a reason to take her out of the picture as a possibility. After all, we're talking hypothetically here --- even if he never saw her as a lover in canon, there is nothing to say he couldn't have come to see her that way given different circumstances. And they did have a very strong bond.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

I don't think that's a reason to take her out of the picture as a possibility. After all, we're talking hypothetically here --- even if he never saw her as a lover in canon, there is nothing to say he couldn't have come to see her that way given different circumstances. And they did have a very strong bond.

Well sure, I mean, if we're talking about non-canon here. Still, he was probably closer to her than any of the other girls and he still didn't come to develop feelings for her. Not to be a buzzkill or anything

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Now I have to disagree. Shirley is certainly not the only answer to that question. He teases Kallen about it more than enough, after all, which is more than can be said for Shirley. Plus, whether you think of it as a detriment or a plus, I seriously doubt he would have propositioned anyone as he did Kallen in Turn 7.

Shirley, I will readily admit, certainly had a chance of being the answer that question, but by the same token she is certainly not the only answer.

lol guys (Nobodyman too), take my 'could' in the context of my argument. I'm not talking about who Lelouch would have liked to bone or anything here (that would again be everybody (in my opinion) btw; he didn't vomit after kissing C.C. or anything after all, and sex has value in and of itself). As I said, in the end he never actually did anything (lovewise), so 'who Lelouch loved' is 'nobody' and a tie (the 'nobody' I understand some people disagree with, and I'll give 'em that, but the tie is pretty much the point). I'm totally over that (not that I'm forcing other people to accept my position, but I'm just saying: if you're rebutting me address my argument). What I mean by who could have made Lelouch bother is who could have changed Lelouch's goals so love fit in his life (made it relevant, make him care enough to give it a chance). Who could have taught him that the world was not his enemy before he made it his enemy, and thus made 'push away what you hold dear to protect it' an inevitable necessity. And that, as I elaborated in my entry to this thread, is only Shirley.

I'll admit I'm dragging this thread down into pairing wars, though. Sorry for that. It's just that I think talking about who Lelouch loved is kinda pointless since he failed at it (really, Lelouch did such jerkass things to all his women, and the one girl who Lelouch actually did well by (C.C., by not hating her in Turn 24; the fact that C.C. was a manipulative bitch who'd lead him along the whole series was our (Shirlulu/Kalulu shippers) single greatest piece of ammo against her back then) turns out to be the one he has no romantic feelings for! ). I just think Shirley's significance always lay in her potential to teach Lelouch what love meant more than the degree to which he actually loved her (and to be honest, my position that I didn't think Lelouch loved Shirley was one of the things I meant about disagreeing with fellow fans. Really, I'm sorry guys.).

[Nobodyman9]

^All right, I understand what you're getting at Sol. I think the main thing here is that not everyone views Lelouch the same way you do (and that's not a problem. We all have our different interpretations of the chracter) I think there are a fair of people who believe that Lelouch was capable of love, even when going down his demon path, and that if things had worked out differently, if he didn't have to sacrifice himself for ZR, that he could have had something with Kallen.

But anyway, as I said before, not gonna get this into a Kallen debate or a shipping war, but going back to your belief that Shirley was the only one who could have changed him. Well, considering that Kallen pretty much loved Lelouch as he was and would bend over backwards for him (in more than one way ) and going so far as to follow him to hell...well, from your point of view that's probably correct.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As I said, in the end he never actually did anything (lovewise), so 'who Lelouch loved' is 'nobody' and a tie (the 'nobody' I understand some people disagree with, and I'll give 'em that, but the tie is pretty much the point). I'm totally over that (not that I'm forcing other people to accept my position, but I'm just saying: if you're rebutting me address my argument).

This is sort of a cop out, though. "Oh, he never got the chance so nobody wins." Just because he never got the chance to express it doesn't mean the feelings weren't there.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What I mean by who could have made Lelouch bother is who could have changed Lelouch's goals so love fit in his life (made it relevant, make him care enough to give it a chance). Who could have taught him that the world was not his enemy before he made it his enemy, and thus made 'push away what you hold dear to protect it' an inevitable necessity. And that, as I elaborated in my entry to this thread, is only Shirley.

I'll still disagree. Shirley would not be enough for that, nor would she try. I mean no disrespect by this, but at the time of her death, what she offered to be, on the surface, is essentially a sort of C.C./Kallen analog (moreso the former, probably) without the usefulness either provide. She would not go about trying to halt him in the middle of his war, nor would her presence alone be enough for him to think otherwise. Even after the betrayal, she'd be lost to him and he'd arrive at the same conclusion.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I just think Shirley's significance always lay in her potential to teach Lelouch what love meant more than the degree to which he actually loved her (to be honest, my position that I didn't think Lelouch loved Shirley was one of the things I meant about disagreeing with fellow fans. ).

Why would Shirley be the only one capable of such teaching? Just because she has such a strong and straightforward opinion on the matter? Shirley doesn't have other things to deal with, so she just focuses on the one thing, but that doesn't mean the others couldn't teach just as well.