[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think it was Jan-Poo who posted the original sequence... or maybe it was someone else.

It was me, but good luck finding that slideshow...
each frame can be easily extracted from the graphic files of the game though, you don't even need to look into the script.

[Wanderer]

Actually, the post was easy to find after putting the right words into google:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't know if someone already made this

Anyway I put together the various frames that are shown when Ange reads Eva's diary in EP8. I included also the frames that still appear in the code, and still exist among the graphic files, but that were later removed.

Note that all of these are already bmp you can find in the game, they aren't screenshots I made.

Spoiler for Big file:

[Drifloon]

Hm...is it just me or are all the removed ones actual screenshots from EP7 tea party?

Edit: Actually, the first one is from the main EP7...and it's from before the portrait was put up. How strange.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kealym

So, about the day'
1. Battler returns in 1985, she isn't too serious with George yet. No drama.
2. Battler returns in 1986, lolexplosion.
3. Battler returns in 1987, she's already married to George. No drama.
[...]
Well, putting aside that 1986 isn't really a "deadline" for exposing Kinzo's death, it's as you say

I think it's not that hard to actually call it at least a symbolical deadline. The siblings practically said during their meetings that they wouldn't let this conference go by without knowing the true condition of Kinzô. This pretty much makes October 6th the final due-date for the revelation of Kinzô's death.

All in all you could probably add these things to the list.

1. Battler returns in 1985: Shannon hasn't bonded with George enough. She would probably have given up "Shannon" and "Kanon" for Battler, leading to probably a negative reaction from at least George, as Jessica had not really decided on "being interested in Kanon" yet.
She is already in possession of the gold and has knowledge of the bomb but has not tested the explosives yet (this is given as December 1985 in the anime), which might indicate that she had no intention of using the bomb then.
The siblings find Krauss' and Natsuhi's behaviour suspicious and if Battler (maybe with Yasu's help) solved the epitaph, the scheme sorrounding the cover-up would be blown.
"Beatrice" plays her little mystery game which might get out of control as it apparently did in 1986, though the pressure because of the doubt about Kinzô isn't that big yet, there is not that much pressure from George and Jessica and many of the financial situations of the siblings have not yet reached the point of total collapse.

2. Battler returns in 1986: The situation as presented.

3. Battler returns in 1987: Feelings for Battler in the form of "Beatrice" might resurface if he actually returned to the island, which would lead to her wanting to play her mystery game despite being already with George.
Though this doesn't seem to make much sense because wasn't it elaborated that she would actually kill off her feelings for anybody else once she had that little trial of lovers thingy in her heart?!

What's bothering me right now is, what was actually meant with "Battler returning 1 year later"? Because it was made pretty clear that 1986 would be the last family conference for many reasons, even without Battler's immediate presence.
Okay, this means that there would be no explosion without Battler. But does that also mean that nobody solved the epitaph without Battlers presence? This would pretty much imply that it was him who solved it, wouldn't it?! Okay...there was n Beatrice mystery game if Battler didn't return so nobody felt pressured to solve it...but still Kinzô's death would have been known and there would be no further need for any family conferences.

It's also my opinion that when Krauss is described as broke, he's being called broke relative to how wealthy the family USUALLY is. I mean, he still has enough money to pay 7-ish servants, maintain the house, and put on some superficial airs, presumably.

I think Ryûkishi actually meant to imply that the whole family was in the exact sense of the word not only broke, but in terrible debts.
Look at real world rich people. Many can go by for some years without even themselves noticing that they are actually not only out of money but already in debts. Krauss put all of Kinzô's money into those highly risky projects, none of which payed off (if they were even real in the first place) and isn't it even implied that he sold shares of the island due to his resort project? And the other siblings aren't off that much better, with Rosa's company probably being in the red numbers from the very beginning, Hideyoshi's company being pretty much out of his control (and Eva being without working experience) and Rudolph also pretty much implied to have debts in the wrong places.

It's also told that in the aftermath of the Rokkenjima incident Eva was first pretty much broke and had to sell most of Kinzô's possession's before she got into money again (probably life and property insurances being paid only after it was "proven" to be an "accident").

I really think their situation was a lot more dire than what we could assume by their "everyday behaviour".

[GuestSpeaker]

Does anyone know where George is in the removed shot?

It would be truly interesting to know what story Ryu meant to tell with those images

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Does anyone know where George is in the removed shot?

It would be truly interesting to know what story Ryu meant to tell with those images

The background is at least as old as EP2, it is used for when characters are in the path between the Mansion and the chapel.
It makes sense in that context, but it isn't clear why George is there.

Also what's with the master key image? In theory this slideshow depicts the adults going for the secret room with the gold, there's no need for keys unless...

unless they used the service door to the underground which was hinted to exist somewhere. And that would mean they didn't actually solve the epitaph?
I wonder...

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by haguruma

What's bothering me right now is, what was actually meant with "Battler returning 1 year later"? Because it was made pretty clear that 1986 would be the last family conference for many reasons, even without Battler's immediate presence.
Okay, this means that there would be no explosion without Battler. But does that also mean that nobody solved the epitaph without Battlers presence? This would pretty much imply that it was him who solved it, wouldn't it?! Okay...there was n Beatrice mystery game if Battler didn't return so nobody felt pressured to solve it...but still Kinzô's death would have been known and there would be no further need for any family conferences.

Well, here's my interpretation.

No one was that upset about actually concealing Kinzo's death. As long as they get the money to save them from their own misfortunes, the other siblings aren't really that mad about the embezzling either. It is possible that without Battler around to inspire a mystery, Beatrice would be less interested in performing the full Epitaph ceremony and just go for a few magical disappearances and the challenge of fulfilling the riddle. A scenario where Beatrice Onikakushis Kinzo and either Shannon or more likely Kanon and leaves a note 'Since I'm a free agent now, if you can solve the riddle I'll make a new contract with you and give you ten tons of gold.' In that scenario, even if the siblings find the gold there's no pile of guns nearby so they can argue and yell and fight it out until someone finally smarts up and suggests some good ideas.

Afterwards, well, they're still a family and there's still a lot of gold sitting on the island that will take time to convert and distribute, so they will probably still have family meetings and in a much more cheerful mood, but maybe not conferences in early October since going in typhoon season is a pain and in a more modern world that messed up seating chart and hierarchy has simply got to go.

[GuestSpeaker]

It makes sense in that context, but it isn't clear why George is there.

He certainly doesn't seem happy to be there does he? I wonder if that is his "my fiancee is a liar" face.

the service door to the underground

It might explain the almost resigned looking Shannon (giving an explanation?) in the weird place.

[GuestSpeaker]

Also now I really can't wait to see what maga ep 8 does with all this.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Did I sound snippy earlier? If so it wasn't intended.

(I had meant to reply to this earlier...)
No, of course not. You're overthinking things.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Also what's with the master key image?

Yes, I find this perplexing as well.

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

He certainly doesn't seem happy to be there does he? I wonder if that is his "my fiancee is a liar" face.

I'm inclined to think it's his "mother, I'll marry who I want" face. It's supposed to be Eva's diary, after all.

[Drifloon]

Seriously, that screenshot is straight from the EP7 tea party. It's right before George is shot by Rudolf. You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ97g...feature=relmfu

[Jan-Poo]

that's not the only one, several "screenshots" are taken directly from the folder meant for the music box. Starting with the sky after Beatrice's portraits till the screenshot of George, they all come from there.

[GuestSpeaker]

I was reading the umineko wiki (I know, a dubious source) and it had this to say about Natsuhi in game 7:

The arguement became very heated and Eva tries to convince everyone that they already have enough money on the cash card. Natsuhi becomes frantic and runs at Eva who accidentally shoots her in the head, hitting her eye, starting the massacre shown in the Tea Party stated to the be result of the 3rd game with red truth by Bernkastel.

Does anyone remember it saying that was the result of the third game? When would that have even occurred?

Not that any of us seem to quite get that game....

[Asuka0NK]

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

I was reading the umineko wiki (I know, a dubious source) and it had this to say about Natsuhi in game 7:



Does anyone remember it saying that was the result of the third game? When would that have even occurred?

Not that any of us seem to quite get that game....

Sorry about that I fixed it. People tend to add interpretations as facts on the wiki. If you find anymore errors please inform me. I really want to make the wiki as accurate as possible.

Also has anyone heard of the Rosorgejo theory or whatever you call it?

Finally did anyone ever figure out what the magic circles mean't because I think I have a theory but I don't know if it's true.

[GuestSpeaker]

Oh, they probably meant as it had her as the survivor, I guess in that way it could be an answer, despite not matching up to it otherwise.

The Eva page on the wiki also lists under her death status in requiem that it showed an interpretation of how she may have survived the 3rd game.

[Asuka0NK]

Hmmmm I guess my fellow Admin is also a user on this site since he seems to have already edited that detail. Well anyway it is fixed now.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Asuka0NK

Also has anyone heard of the Rosorgejo theory or whatever you call it?

Yes, heard of it. Never heard it called that, though.

It's the best theory out there if you make a few basic assumptions (namely, that red is absolute and supreme) and work almost entirely deductively from there.

But... as Renall pointed out a few posts ago, any plan to murder everyone on the island leads to a really unsatisfying motive. "Rosorgejo" theory is particularly bad in this regard because it invokes not 1, but 2 psychotic mass murderers each with independent motives. And adding an accomplice, whose motives are also undeveloped, makes it even worse.

The end of EP5 (and most of EP7) should have been enough to tell us that assigning a motive after "deducing" the culprit is the wrong approach, anyway. It makes for a "third rate motive" which in turn makes for a "third rate Mystery".

[Jan-Poo]

Is that the nine hours video? Is there a tl;dr version?

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is that the nine hours video? Is there a tl;dr version?

I do want. I can't stand the guy because he gives us a ten minute introduction on why his theory must be correct before he even tells us what his theory is.

I have a question regarding Sakutarou. I think I know the answer, but I might be remebering it wrong, so I'll ask on here.

When did Maria get Sakutarou and when did the Rosa incident occur?

I seem to remember that is happened when Maria was six or so... three years before 1986. The thing is, is that BATTLER has him in Dawn.

Why is this important?

Because it messes up what we think is Prime and/or what is in the forgeries. Or it confirms Ikuko = Yasu.

Basically, we know Ange "gives Maria Sakutarou back" in 1998. However he appears in 1986 on Dawn's gameboard. Usually we chalk this up to the fact that it is a forgery, and character development has been occurring, similar to how Shannon and Kanon are developed even in Tohya's forgeries.

But Battler shouldn't have known about Sakutarou. If Maria was older than three when Rosa gave it to her, Battler had already left the Ushiromiya. It's possible then that Battler may have recognized that his aunt's company made these lion toys, but then he still wouldn't have known what a single doll really meant for her.

One possibility is that Ikuko = Yasu, and that it may have been something that she was able to talk about. It was Beatrice that helped give Sakutarou life for Maria. But how would she bring this up to Tohya/Battler?

Another possibility is that everything to do with Sakutarou and Maria is completely fictionalized. This includes Alliance's 1998 scenes, the "Greatest Mom ever!" scenes. This destroys a lot of characterization.

[Asuka0NK]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Yes, heard of it. Never heard it called that, though.

It's the best theory out there if you make a few basic assumptions (namely, that red is absolute and supreme) and work almost entirely deductively from there.

But... as Renall pointed out a few posts ago, any plan to murder everyone on the island leads to a really unsatisfying motive. "Rosorgejo" theory is particularly bad in this regard because it invokes not 1, but 2 psychotic mass murderers each with independent motives. And adding an accomplice, whose motives are also undeveloped, makes it even worse.

The end of EP5 (and most of EP7) should have been enough to tell us that assigning a motive after "deducing" the culprit is the wrong approach, anyway. It makes for a "third rate motive" which in turn makes for a "third rate Mystery".

Yeah I didn't want to spell it all out and yes Jan-poo it is that 9-hour long video. I just find it a very well thought out theory but I really dislike the motives and besides the 2nd game 4-6th Twilight doesn't work because George would never kill Shannon. I personally believe in ShKanon and not just because Ryukishi07 said it I believe it because I thought it through myself.

Battler easily could've known about Sakutaro because Ange probably told him about Sakutaro and how much Maria loved the doll.