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Levani · 2015-07-19, 13:39

It really makes no sense for human belief to have such power to transform CCC Caster, give birth to Medea, Herakles and Medusa and then have Arthuria materialize as a woman.

Rising Dragon · 2015-07-19, 14:12

If said beliefs could fully shape a Heroic Spirit's appearance then more than likely Arturia as a proper Heroic Spirit (not a Counter Guardian) would've likely appeared as a man. Arturia appears like she does, however, because she is taken directly from her state just after the battle of Camlann, with only what she has on her, as part of her contract with Alaya.

monster · 2015-07-19, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

Do human beliefs shape up what a Heroic Spirit looks like? And their abilities?

I was playing Fate/Extra CCC and Caster complained about a belief humanity made about him, which in return was applied to him and made him transform to fit that belief. Is this just a Fate/Extra thing or do FSN servants qualify as well?

I really dislike the fact that these servants might be fictional as opposed to people who really existed.

If he was transformed to fit that belief, why would he act like it's not really him?

GDB · 2015-07-19, 15:33

If that were the case, then Mordred would be male too. But he's not.

That said, which Caster are you talking about? Because if it's Nursery Rhyme, then it's rather obvious why said Servant's status would change.

Levani · 2015-07-19, 15:56

Quote:

That said, which Caster are you talking about? Because if it's Nursery Rhyme, then it's rather obvious why said Servant's status would change.

No, I meant Anderson from CCC.

Quote:

If that were the case, then Mordred would be male too. But he's not.

This is a good point. Unlike Athuria, Mordred is a proper Heroic Spirit, right? Then, by all means, she should materialize as a male but no such thing is happening. Furthermore Rider from Fate/Extra is also a female when history and humanity know her as a male. The same exact deal with Saber, Nero, who we know as a male. Seems like there is no constancy here. I am a huge fan of Nasu's world and worldbuilding but I admit, this kind of bothers me.

Rising Dragon · 2015-07-19, 18:04

That's why I said, "If you buy into the canonicity." :k Like Gundam SEED, Type-Moon can be a bit of a mess with retcons and inconsistencies from the authors.

mukade · 2015-08-23, 20:27

So, after taking a look at Illya's page on the wiki, I noticed this:

Quote:

Illyasviel is a homunculus, an artificial human given life by applying sorcery to sperm cells, originally created and raised by the Einzbern family.[4] During the Heaven's Feel scenario, it is insinuated that the sperm used to create her was donated by Kiritsugu Emiya, a fact that is confirmed in Fate/hollow ataraxia and Fate/Zero.

That sounds a lot like her mother had artificial insemination lol
Does anyone know if it's stated anywhere that Kiritsugu DONATED his sperm to the Einzberns? lol
That doesn't make much sense after FZ... couldn't Kerry and Iri conceive her the normal way?

Witch of Uncertainty · 2015-08-24, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mukade

So, after taking a look at Illya's page on the wiki, I noticed this:

That sounds a lot like her mother had artificial insemination lol
Does anyone know if it's stated anywhere that Kiritsugu DONATED his sperm to the Einzberns? lol
That doesn't make much sense after FZ... couldn't Kerry and Iri conceive her the normal way?

I don't know, but Irisviel probably didn't have a womb. I would guess that Illiya was "planted" in her.
Illiya is from my understanding half human and half homunculus, meaning that she doesn't carry irisviel "genetics". Irisviel only bore her.

TwilightsCall · 2015-08-24, 08:51

Yeah, keep in mind Irisviel is no where near as close to a human being as she looks. I mean, she is like 9 years old in F/Z. While Illya is 8 years old in F/Z. There's no guarantee (and in fact I would speculate very little chance) that she would be capable of bearing children the...normal way, especially considering the Einzbern method of creating Homunculi.

She was almost definitely acting as a surrogate mother. While she and Kiritsugu may have been that intimate with each other, it's highly unlikely he got her pregnant directly.

Levani · 2015-08-26, 05:29

In the beginning of the story, who is that killed the family, with only leaving a young child alive?

Was it Lancer? For what purpose? Caster makes no sense because it doesn't look like her handiwork and she doesn't kill and Fake Assassin cannot possibly be in the city to commit murder either. There only one left is Lancer but I see no reason why he would do this or why would Kirei order him to do it.

TwilightsCall · 2015-08-26, 16:53

Well, in HA its Avenger, but that probably doesn't hold in SN.

My impression was that it was Rider, since Shinji was obviously having Rider attack people to make herself stronger.

Levani · 2015-08-27, 01:16

Oh, pff, right, why didn't I suspect Rider xDD

mukade · 2015-08-27, 08:03

@Witch of Uncertainty and TwilightsCall:
I see, but in one of Fate/Zero's drama CDs, Irisviel tells this to Kiritsugu:

Quote:

I'm a woman.
You're a man.
Together, we can create a new life.
As a complete homunculus, I have a womb that functions no differently from that of a normal person.
It should be entirely possible.

Dengar · 2015-08-28, 16:50

From what I understand, the only reason Illya is a homunculus is because she was grown from one.

Rising Dragon · 2015-08-29, 03:49

Gilgamesh did note in the UBW anime upon viewing Ilya that crossing a human and a homunculus created a peculiarity.

Y Ddraig Goch · 2015-08-30, 22:50

Was it ever stated, be it via Nasu interviews or game sources, the fate of the relationship between Rin and Shirou after the events of UBW?

Phantom · 2015-08-30, 23:23

How did Shirou manage to kill Berserker with Nine Lives Blade Works in Heaven's Feel if Tracing downgrades the weapon traced by one rank and God Hand was still active, preventing anyone to kill him with the same attack?

Rising Dragon · 2015-08-31, 02:37

Tracing seems to degrade the rank of the Noble Phantasm's special power, rather than the weapon itself. Also, Nine Lives Blade Works failed to kill Berserker Alter, so...

Phantom · 2015-08-31, 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Tracing seems to degrade the rank of the Noble Phantasm's special power, rather than the weapon itself. Also, Nine Lives Blade Works failed to kill Berserker Alter, so...

It actually did. With a little help from Illya at the end, Shirou managed to get rid of his 9 remaining lives. What I don't get is, one kill from the Nine Lives should have rendered Berserker immune to getting killed by it again. So...how?

Rising Dragon · 2015-08-31, 05:09

From what I understood of it, the actual attack was eight strikes, and then Shirou followed up with a thrust to Berserker's heart, rather than it being nine strikes within one attack.

That said, certain powerful attacks can take more than one life at a time from Berserker. Case in point, Caliburn.

2015-07-19, 14:12	Link #5242
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	If said beliefs could fully shape a Heroic Spirit's appearance then more than likely Arturia as a proper Heroic Spirit (not a Counter Guardian) would've likely appeared as a man. Arturia appears like she does, however, because she is taken directly from her state just after the battle of Camlann, with only what she has on her, as part of her contract with Alaya. __________________

2015-07-19, 18:04	Link #5246
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	That's why I said, "If you buy into the canonicity." :k Like Gundam SEED, Type-Moon can be a bit of a mess with retcons and inconsistencies from the authors. __________________

2015-08-29, 03:49	Link #5255
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Gilgamesh did note in the UBW anime upon viewing Ilya that crossing a human and a homunculus created a peculiarity. __________________

2015-08-31, 02:37	Link #5258
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Tracing seems to degrade the rank of the Noble Phantasm's special power, rather than the weapon itself. Also, Nine Lives Blade Works failed to kill Berserker Alter, so... __________________

2015-08-31, 05:09	Link #5260
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	From what I understood of it, the actual attack was eight strikes, and then Shirou followed up with a thrust to Berserker's heart, rather than it being nine strikes within one attack. That said, certain powerful attacks can take more than one life at a time from Berserker. Case in point, Caliburn. __________________

2015-07-19, 13:39	Link #5241
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	It really makes no sense for human belief to have such power to transform CCC Caster, give birth to Medea, Herakles and Medusa and then have Arthuria materialize as a woman.

2015-07-19, 15:33	Link #5244
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	If that were the case, then Mordred would be male too. But he's not. That said, which Caster are you talking about? Because if it's Nursery Rhyme, then it's rather obvious why said Servant's status would change.

2015-08-24, 08:51	Link #5249
TwilightsCall Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 33	Yeah, keep in mind Irisviel is no where near as close to a human being as she looks. I mean, she is like 9 years old in F/Z. While Illya is 8 years old in F/Z. There's no guarantee (and in fact I would speculate very little chance) that she would be capable of bearing children the...normal way, especially considering the Einzbern method of creating Homunculi. She was almost definitely acting as a surrogate mother. While she and Kiritsugu may have been that intimate with each other, it's highly unlikely he got her pregnant directly.

2015-08-26, 05:29	Link #5250
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	In the beginning of the story, who is that killed the family, with only leaving a young child alive? Was it Lancer? For what purpose? Caster makes no sense because it doesn't look like her handiwork and she doesn't kill and Fake Assassin cannot possibly be in the city to commit murder either. There only one left is Lancer but I see no reason why he would do this or why would Kirei order him to do it.

2015-08-26, 16:53	Link #5251
TwilightsCall Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 33	Well, in HA its Avenger, but that probably doesn't hold in SN. My impression was that it was Rider, since Shinji was obviously having Rider attack people to make herself stronger.

2015-08-27, 01:16	Link #5252
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	Oh, pff, right, why didn't I suspect Rider xDD

2015-08-28, 16:50	Link #5254
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	From what I understand, the only reason Illya is a homunculus is because she was grown from one.

2015-08-30, 22:50	Link #5256
Y Ddraig Goch Chasing Echoes Join Date: Jul 2014	Was it ever stated, be it via Nasu interviews or game sources, the fate of the relationship between Rin and Shirou after the events of UBW?

2015-08-30, 23:23	Link #5257
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012	How did Shirou manage to kill Berserker with Nine Lives Blade Works in Heaven's Feel if Tracing downgrades the weapon traced by one rank and God Hand was still active, preventing anyone to kill him with the same attack?