Guilty Crown - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by Crontica

I wish you people would stop trying to compare Shuu with Lelouch.
Lelouch wasn't a shy stuttering highschool girl with moral complexity issues, it has always been Shuuzaku and will always remain Shuuzaku.

We aren't allowed to discuss our one-way minded Evil Overlord, remember? And Suzaku isn't really Shu-comparable.

Originally Posted by leon4281isback

I get it people, now stop comparing Guilty Crown to Code Geass.

I don't get why people compare a good anime (code geass) to this horses**t (Guilty Crown).

All I saw from this anime was a big F.U. to the main character, who never even learned and grow up as a person that we can all get behind.

With 5 episodes I wonder how this will end for the obvious characters in this little story.

As far as I know, unless there's some turn around and a decent ending...

This anime is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r3ey6qWlBs

That's weak. Shu will obviously give a very big F.U. to everyone, including any haters, and end this like Evangelion, Ideon or something Apocalypsy....

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by djmaca

We aren't allowed to discuss our one-way minded Evil Overlord, remember? And Suzaku isn't really Shu-comparable.

Agreed. They're polar opposites, actually. I find suzaku to be really self-righteous, whereas Shu is self nothing. Depressed and emo, always thinking nothing of himself. Which is why he leaps at the opportunity (like and idiot, i might add) to have some power over others and be someone for once despite knowing that's not who he is.

Though really, stop comparing Guilty crown and Code Geass. The basic of the basic premise sound similar, but they really are nothing alike characters and all. In fact, i can't help but think it was some marketing scheme to get people into this; promote GC as something similar, if not better, to the popular CG and watch as the viewers come rolling in...and if that's the case, i can safely say that its worked

[Crontica]

My only displeasure is that there is no pizzahut, hexagon's aren't exactly edible.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

Agreed. They're polar opposites, actually. I find suzaku to be really self-righteous, whereas Shu is self nothing. Depressed and emo, always thinking nothing of himself. Which is why he leaps at the opportunity (like and idiot, i might add) to have some power over others and be someone for once despite knowing that's not who he is.

Though really, stop comparing Guilty crown and Code Geass. The basic of the basic premise sound similar, but they really are nothing alike characters and all. In fact, i can't help but think it was some marketing scheme to get people into this; promote GC as something similar, if not better, to the popular CG and watch as the viewers come rolling in...and if that's the case, i can safely say that its worked

Tell one time in anime he leaps at the opportunity (like and idiot) to have some power over others ?

To choose to leader other =/= is not same as other people choosing you to lead them.
(He didn't plan to become president but the student choose him to become one since they know that there is no other person have to power to get them out other than him and he did a lot better than Arisa)

[ImagineThat]

I guess this episode proves to myself that i don't hate Shu as while i still don't emphasize with how he has acted in the past and present i took no pleasure in seeing him lose his arm.

Depending on how she reacts to Gai's "miraculous" revival, there's a chance that Guilty Crown has finally produced a character i like in Ayase. It was nice to see her react with genuine concern for Shu during the students coup. My hope is that she can put aside her feelings for Gai to realize he is not the same person and sides with Shu. Not because she loves Shu but because its the right thing to do. Amongst all the selfishness, deceit and corruption, It would be so refreshing to see a character in this Anime (besides Mother Teresa may she RIP) that for the most part you could say behaved in an morally admirable fashion.

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

Though really, stop comparing Guilty crown and Code Geass. The basic of the basic premise sound similar, but they really are nothing alike characters and all. In fact, i can't help but think it was some marketing scheme to get people into this; promote GC as something similar, if not better, to the popular CG and watch as the viewers come rolling in...and if that's the case, i can safely say that its worked

Its mind boggling really, except for some vague similarities such as rebel groups, boy meets girl and receives power and the totalitarian system i cant see how in either characters, plot or execution this is anything like CG.

Eureka Seven i could see it initially as Shu was very much like Renton, Gai like Holland, Inori Eureka and Undertakers Gecko state. Added to that both series seem to be more character focused with events transpiring to showcase the effect they have on the characters than to actually move the plot in a meaningful direction.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Tell one time in anime he leaps at the opportunity (like and idiot) to have some power over others ?

To choose to leader other =/= is not same as other people choosing you to lead them.
(He didn't plan to become president but the student choose him to become one since they know that there is no other person have to power to get them out other than him and he did a lot better than Arisa)

That incident with Yahiro and his brother for one. The way i saw it, he stupidly decided to act boss over yahiro (to help his brother, sure, but he still did and probably felt good about himself while at it) just because he was the new undertaker hotshot and had some people with resources to call.

Also, when the student body decided to elect him president. I agree with what you said about choosing to become the leader is different than others choosing you to lead them, but he could have always declined the offer. Instead, he got caught up in the moment and foolishly chose to accept just because a whole bunch of people he had never even met wanted him to be responsible for them. The way things were going, Arisa would probably have stayed President seeing as the cause of the whole 'elect a better president' thing, the ponytail/glasses asshole duo were down.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

That incident with Yahiro and his brother for one. The way i saw it, he stupidly decided to act boss over yahiro (to help his brother, sure, but he still did and probably felt good about himself while at it) just because he was the new undertaker hotshot and had some people with resources to call.

Also, when the student body decided to elect him president. I agree with what you said about choosing to become the leader is different than others choosing you to lead them, but he could have always declined the offer. Instead, he got caught up in the moment and foolishly chose to accept just because a whole bunch of people he had never even met wanted him to be responsible for them. The way things were going, Arisa would probably have stayed President seeing as the cause of the whole 'elect a better president' thing, the ponytail/glasses asshole duo were down.

There was no way Arisa would have stayed president she had no power to do anything that is the reason why things got as bad as they did .
The only reason the students clam down was because the they saw a way out with Shu .
He was going to be force to take care of them no matter what leader or no leader .

His two choices were leave with his small group and knowing some of them they would have not wanted that .
Stay and be force to take care of everybody which happen .

What Shu fail to understand that unlike Gai with his group he was dealing with a bunch of stupid students .

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by andy

There was no way Arisa would have stayed president she had no power to do anything that is the reason why things got as bad as they did .
The only reason the students clam down was because the they saw a way out with Shu .
He was going to be force to take care of them no matter what leader or no leader .

His two choices were leave with his small group and knowing some of them they would have not wanted that .
Stay and be force to take care of everybody which happen .

What Shu fail to understand that unlike Gai with his group he was dealing with a bunch of stupid students .

No, i'm sure Arisa would still be president. Because if not her, then who? Like i said, the main instigators of the rebellion thing, the asshole duo were out of the game. You said that the student calmed down after seeing their way out in Shu, but i say they wouldn't have gotten so riled up if it wasn't for asshole duo spreading rumors and stuff like the assholes they are. So, all we have left are Shu's group and a bunch of nameless characters. The writers could have introduced a new character (most likely another douche, considering this show), but they didn't, so lets not head in that direction. At this point, i reckon one little speech from Arisa would have secured her victory, if you want to call it that, and bam she's secured her presidency. And even if not, the student's would just let her keep being president, because, lets face it they're pathetic. They want something. anything to be done but don't want to do it themselves, so they'll take the only path left open for them: toward the shining light of a then still pure Arisa.

Besides, i think we're forgetting that the only reason people even considered Shu for the job was because of Yahiro and his 'ouma shu for president' thing. Now, if he had backed Arisa, with a lie if nothing else (he seems to be good at those), or even himself, then we wouldn't have tyrant king shu to worry about now, and the student body wouldn't be looking at shu like he's the messiah.

But for the sake of this arguments, lets say that Shu is NOT president and that desperate students are still begging him for help. Of course, this in a parallel universe where Shu had the balls to say no to the entire school into a microphone, so he could just keep saying no. But what would they be asking him to help with? The only thing i seem to be able to recall him doing before Hare died was helping Yahiro on the matter of how to distribute the vaccines, and that's not exactly shu exclusive. So essentially he really had nothing 'to take care of'. That aside, if they were begging him to take out their voids to attack and get some vaccines or something (Souta's plan...without the Hare involvement) and he did then they would have got a taste of reality pretty fast. Though all that could be avoided if he made if crystal clear he wasn't going to go along with some vague plan with the success based of optimism and luck. And that's the 'force to take care of' problem gone.

Leaving would be a bad idea, but i see it unnecessary in all scenario's.

[andy]

So if he was going to say no over and over why would he not leave ?
Before Shu was the president he had to save the school when it got attack , before he was the president he had to show them that GHQ would have kill them any way .

As i said he had 2 choices leave with small group or stay and take care of everyone .

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

That incident with Yahiro and his brother for one. The way i saw it, he stupidly decided to act boss over yahiro (to help his brother, sure, but he still did and probably felt good about himself while at it) just because he was the new undertaker hotshot and had some people with resources to call.

So if I help my friends = I walk over them?
He decide to help him (would you rather him to act as if he saw nothing?)

At this point, i reckon one little speech from Arisa would have secured her victory

What she done beside waiting for help that we know that will never come?
She is far worse than Shu at leading.

Besides, i think we're forgetting that the only reason people even considered Shu for the job was because of Yahiro and his 'ouma shu for president' thing.

Because he know that Shu is the only one with power to lead them.
If anyone else decide to lead them = how will you know that they will follow you?
There is no cop or rule you know = they need strong person to rule.

So essentially he really had nothing 'to take care of'

What do you think is president rule? It's to say yes or no to big plan.
(You don't really believe that president know everything from military to business to Doctor/science do you? Or why do they have advisers, ministers, generals...etc?

if they were begging him to take out their voids to attack and get some vaccines or something (Souta's plan...without the Hare involvement) and he did then they would have got a taste of reality pretty fast.

At that time he was plan to save them all so that = was big no.
But than he learn reality by hard way and let F group get their own vaccines by their own hand

Leaving would be a bad idea, but i see it unnecessary in all scenario's

So why should he stay if he was not their leader?
It's far easier to just get out alone/in small group(lesser than 10) than with big group( hundred if not thousandth students.)
(If he was selfish to ignore their pleads to lead them than why wouldn't he be selfish to get out alone/in small group?

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

No, i'm sure Arisa would still be president. Because if not her, then who? Like i said, the main instigators of the rebellion thing, the asshole duo were out of the game. You said that the student calmed down after seeing their way out in Shu, but i say they wouldn't have gotten so riled up if it wasn't for asshole duo spreading rumors and stuff like the assholes they are. So, all we have left are Shu's group and a bunch of nameless characters. The writers could have introduced a new character (most likely another douche, considering this show), but they didn't, so lets not head in that direction. At this point, i reckon one little speech from Arisa would have secured her victory, if you want to call it that, and bam she's secured her presidency. And even if not, the student's would just let her keep being president, because, lets face it they're pathetic. They want something. anything to be done but don't want to do it themselves, so they'll take the only path left open for them: toward the shining light of a then still pure Arisa.

Besides, i think we're forgetting that the only reason people even considered Shu for the job was because of Yahiro and his 'ouma shu for president' thing. Now, if he had backed Arisa, with a lie if nothing else (he seems to be good at those), or even himself, then we wouldn't have tyrant king shu to worry about now, and the student body wouldn't be looking at shu like he's the messiah.

But for the sake of this arguments, lets say that Shu is NOT president and that desperate students are still begging him for help. Of course, this in a parallel universe where Shu had the balls to say no to the entire school into a microphone, so he could just keep saying no. But what would they be asking him to help with? The only thing i seem to be able to recall him doing before Hare died was helping Yahiro on the matter of how to distribute the vaccines, and that's not exactly shu exclusive. So essentially he really had nothing 'to take care of'. That aside, if they were begging him to take out their voids to attack and get some vaccines or something (Souta's plan...without the Hare involvement) and he did then they would have got a taste of reality pretty fast. Though all that could be avoided if he made if crystal clear he wasn't going to go along with some vague plan with the success based of optimism and luck. And that's the 'force to take care of' problem gone.

Leaving would be a bad idea, but i see it unnecessary in all scenario's.

I disagree here. I mean, in that episode everyone, except maybe Shu, knew that Shu should have been the leader. Arisa lost all her credibility in front of the students, as the 2 assholes. Arisa having no solutions at all, the seconds following rumors as n00bs. The only problem is that Shu knew that he was not fitted for the role, as events have subsequently shown. But again that was the one and only solution.

Talking about the betrayal timing, I don't get the problem having students betraying Shu only after he freed them. They are pathetic, but not completely stupids. Why would they had to have schemed some dubious plan B, having a killing machine as Shu/Manori? And even if Shu is the one who would have freed them, the way he acted to gain that freedom has relevance. If from a cynical perspective the saying the end justifies the means works, it doesn't from a personal perspective. Everyone has a limit. I mean, exaggerating, who would give away his a** virginity multiple times to gain his freedom without thinking of charging the a**raper for that ASAP?

[Gundamx]

Talking about the betrayal timing, I don't get the problem having students betraying Shu only after he freed them.

They betrayed him because they don't like how he lead them to get out right?
because they don't like how he sacrificed few to save most of them right?
How he lead them with fist of steal to get them out right?

If they don't like his way to get them out than they should remove him from president spot before they get out and try to come with new way to get out, but because they know that it's the only way to get out, they waited till that moment to act as tragedy heroine.

In other words they are the perfect scum who act as righteously even though they totally rotten to the core.

[Crisis]

Originally Posted by DarkyPwnz

I wonder why people don't criticize the glasses-asshole guy. He has already proven that he isn't worth his weight in crap in the previous episodes and he could atleast redeem himself by executing Arisa the moment he found out she was up to something.

Because he's a minor character, that no one cares about. And, he's just a scum.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

They betrayed him because they don't like how he lead them to get out right?
because they don't like how he sacrificed few to save most of them right?
How he lead them with fist of steal to get them out right?

If they don't like his way to get them out than they should remove him from president spot before they get out and try to come with new way to get out, but because they know that it's the only way to get out, they waited till that moment to act as tragedy heroine.

In other words they are the perfect scum who act as righteously even though they totally rotten to the core.

Ehi, I agree with you. I'm not defending the students here, I'm just saying that it was not such a strange as a move, indeed.

[djmaca]

Rage... rage everywhere

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Arya

Ehi, I agree with you. I'm not defending the students here, I'm just saying that it was not such a strange as a move, indeed.

It actually is, because it is nonsensical: the very problem itself is that such plan would put most of them in a dire state, especially after what they learned.
Therefore, the rebellion after the whole plan, past the dubious double standards, doesn't make sense by itself: they would have rebelled way before the plan is in motion instead.

[Sixth]

Seriously, kindness in GC is pointless.

Shu should just get Inori void and use it to escape from the wall with the amazing air hike ability.

[silvercover]

I also have to disagree on the whole deal with episode 14. it was actually the only good episode of GC that didnt have any inconsistency or any wild spins.
the students reacted naturally in the face of a leader who doesnt appear capable and keeps on going "lets wait".
the assholes made some actual points so its not quite idiotic move, but are still assholes mind you.
shoe reacted naturally without spinning off his character again.
we also got some real proper flashback, unlike with ayase, on tsugumi.

but il just stop there since its going to change into a "episode 14" discussion instead of "episode 17"...

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It actually is, because it is nonsensical: the very problem itself is that such plan would put most of them in a dire state, especially after what they learned.
Therefore, the rebellion after the whole plan, past the dubious double standards, doesn't make sense by itself: they would have rebelled way before the plan is in motion instead.

If they rebelled way before, what option would they have to survive, to escape from that trap? That plan was their best chance to escape. Knowing to have 50/50 odds to survive, at best.
From my point of view all the students knew very well that they wouldn't have the strength and the resources to escape. In fact they elected him not out of sympathy, but for his strength. Voids were the only resources they could rely on. So rebelling before being freed it would be pointless.
We could argue about how Shu could have reacted to that, (killing them?) so probably they knew that Gai would have backed them up.


Anyways the best ending would be the EoE ending, with Shu lying on a beach with Mana and Inori beside him ... drinking mojito

[DragoZERO]

I think they waited to rebel because they did need Shu. They just had to get their revenge after they won. Even though Shu could have done it by himself.

And I hope that glasses guy comes on to Arisa and Gai kills him for it.

Originally Posted by Arya

Anyways the best ending would be the EoE ending, with Shu lying on a beach with Mana and Inori beside him ... drinking mojito

Except it'd be Ayase with him at the end.