AnimeSuki Forums

Racheya-sama · 2009-12-19, 10:42

Before Maria, I'm pretty sure it was Kyrie in one of the guest rooms at the main mansion when she was on the phone to Battler.

Metaler · 2009-12-20, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Two questions:
1. Why do you believe this?
2. And why Maria? Jessica from my perspective is a ton more likely compared to Maria, particularly since she actually called back telling Battler to believe in the witch.

1. I honestly don't really know... It's just a hunch. o_o
2. Because considering her gulible and naive personality, someone (Beatrice, or anyone who believes in witches) can definetely ask to cooperate.
Jessica could've been forced to tell Battler to believe in witches. Maybe she was bein held at gunpoint.
But yeah, we can't deny the possiblity that she's lying or if the phone call is a recording.

Marion · 2009-12-20, 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racheya-sama

Before Maria, I'm pretty sure it was Kyrie in one of the guest rooms at the main mansion when she was on the phone to Battler.

Yeah - according to Battler the call from Kyrie didn't come too long after the call from Jessica, even though according to the fantasy scene that shouldn't be true.

Metaler · 2009-12-20, 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

Yeah - according to Battler the call from Kyrie didn't come too long after the call from Jessica, even though according to the fantasy scene that shouldn't be true.

This could mean that the time of the deaths isn't accurate. Hell, maybe the 1st twlight only ocurred 5 minutes before Battler went to the dining hall. =P

ferthepoet · 2009-12-20, 21:33

Don't know if this has been discussed before but can any japaneese speaker confirm if the following deductions about the names and the loopholes that can apply are correct:

Battler
Jessica
Maria
George
Rudolf
Krauss
Eva and
Rosa

Are names made up by Kinzo in a weird japaneese spelling nobody else would use so are definately exclusive to the Ushiromiya family, are not the actual western names so Beatrice cant say George is dead and then claim she was talking about George Washington... none are these names a ramdom japaneese person not related to the Ushiromiya family can have

Nanjo

is a family name so when Beatrice claim Nanjo is dead she could be referring to someone else in Nanjo's family?

Kannon and
Shannon

Are also names made up in Kinzo that no ramdom person in Japan should have, however they are not real names, we dunno know the last name of either so if for example they are Nanjos illegitimate children they could be counted twice, for example Beatrice could say Shannon is death and Nanjo [sayo] is dead while Dr. Nanjo is alive. We of course dunno know Kannon first name either so if it matches somebody else in the list it could be used for counting twice the same death.

Kyrie
Hideyoshi
Kinzo
Natsuhi
Ghoda
Genghi
and Kumazawa

Are normal japaneese names so when beatrice says Natsuhi is dead she could be referring to a ramdom person called Natsuhi in tokyo while the Natushi we know is alive

Jan-Poo · 2009-12-20, 21:54

Well actually it can't be George Washington because that "George" can't have his name written in Kanji, at best it would be in katakana.

The names of the Ushiromiya family members are pretty much unique, and I wouldn't be surprised if in the real world there is absolutely no one with most of those names, matching both the way they are written and the way they are pronounced.

That however doesn't stop theories about the possibility of homonymous people in Umineko. We know that in at least one case (Battler) there is one, and that's the strangest name among everyone else.

Personally I find the idea that Beatrice could use red in this way rather silly, but it is an undeniable fact that she herself used the non exclusivity of names as an argument to defeat Battler's red.

Knicknevin · 2009-12-21, 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

One of the theories about Episode 4 is that a large portion of the cast, including Kumasawa, Gohda, Jessica, and Kyrie's group, was carrying out a previously-arranged performance for the benefit of the people in the guesthouse for Reason X (maybe something in Kinzo's will). The theory goes that the real culprit was taking advantage of the performance to kill everyone off without alerting them that something was actually wrong. From Gohda and Kumasawa's perspective, the people in the dining room may very well have still been alive when they left the mansion.

I kind of like this theory. But it's a very strange one. I can't really find a motive for the 4 siblings to carry out this kind of act. Or their spouses, or Jessica. The servants loyal to Kinzo I can understand, as well as Nanjo.

What's more, if this is all a huge performance gone awry, it would have to be planned in advance if the rest of the family is playing along. So this theory would have to apply to not just Episode 4, but all the rest. I'm not really sure how to make this theory work.

But maybe... Krauss and Natsuhi had planned some sort of crazy performance to create an opening so they could clear themselves of suspicion regarding Kinzo's death. Maybe Krauss'd even somehow clear himself of embezzlement. Bringing 'Beatrice' into the story would make sense for that, she could be blamed for pretty much anything and she can't defend herself since Krauss doesn't believe she exists. The servants were all in on it on some level or another, Nanjo is brought in to 'verify' times of death and whatnot, and Jessica was convinced by her parents to play along as well.

Since Krauss has control of Kinzo's money, he sets up those 'delayed delivery' letters with the codes and keys for the money he's bribing his accomplices with, and everything is going according to plan... And at this point in the story, along comes a spider. One of the people in his conspiracy has their own plans, and during the first night while Krauss has someone appear as 'Beatrice' (this appears to happen in Episode 2 at the least), they attack, killing anyone that is still taking part in the meeting.

And then... well, I don't really know. I'd guess that some of the servants might think this is all an act and continue with their roles. Or maybe the killer got to them. I can't really apply this to Episode 4 at all. Too many 'prisoners', too little time, too many bodies spread out all over the place. The order of deaths has been kept intentionally vague with one exception- we know Kanon died ninth, and we know that of 'Kyrie's group' (Kanon, Shannon, Nanjo, Kyrie and Krauss) he was the first to die. Thus, the other 4 were 10th or later. Battler of course was 18th (really, 17th but he didn't know that at the time). Maria must have died pretty late, so that leaves 2 deaths after Kanon died, and 8 before that are still uncertain. This assumes, of course, that 'Kyrie's Group' was as we were told. Maybe this is an indirect confirmation that Kyrie is the culprit and Kanon is working with her.

We've been led to believe that Gohda and Kumasawa were in those empty positions after Kanon's death, but what if they weren't? If they fell among the first 8, who could take those places instead? George and Jessica?

AnjinForever · 2010-06-03, 07:06

Sorry if this has been asked, and it probably has, but do we know what Ange saw at the boatman's house that caused her and those with her to react so strongly? It was worded as vaguely as could be possible and I'm assuming since 4 was still a 'question' arc it's something we're probably still being kept in the dark about but if someone has figured it out I'd love to hear it. Alternatively if it's something revealed in a later game PMing me about it would be great to prevent spoilers for others.

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-03, 07:38

In the anime you clearly see a Sakutaro plush (or a lot of them? not clear) inside a bag.

there's been speculations about Sakutaro being actually a commercial plush and not an hand-made one. The issue is not totally resolved. There is a red used by Beatrice that claims that Sakutaro was made by Rosa, but it was interrupted.

Some believe that the red should be considered valid until the very part that was blocked (which was "the only one in the world")
Some other believe that the whole red truth should be considered invalid.

In any case It can be said with certainty that Sakutaro is not the only one in the world, so what Ange saw in Kawabata's futon shop was most certainly a Sakutaro.

AnjinForever · 2010-06-03, 09:04

Wow. That certainly is important. I wonder... OHHHHH! So that's why Ange was able to produce the miracle of resurrection for Maria! At first I was thinking: man they should have mentioned something that important in the game, but now that I think about what happens when Ange meets up with Maria it makes a lot of sense. I'll have to go back and watch the anime again to see if there's anything else they put in there that I missed on my first watch.

Frisko · 2010-06-03, 13:14

It's revealed to be Sakutarou in one of the extra tips. Furthermore, given what the tip says, I believe that rather then mass-producing him, Rosa made a single new Sakutarou to give Maria, but died before she had the chance too. And that it was damaged in whatever event caused the mansion to be destroyed.

Kylon99 · 2010-06-03, 13:26

I'm not sure this was presented well in the anime but in the game this whole idea of Ange finding a bunch of Sakutarous in a bag and then in a magic scene her representing that she revived him is a big clue on several things:

1. How 'magic' works.
2. How the story can introduce development for a character that is supposed to be dead. (Maria.)

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-03, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisko

It's revealed to be Sakutarou in one of the extra tips. Furthermore, given what the tip says, I believe that rather then mass-producing him, Rosa made a single new Sakutarou to give Maria, but died before she had the chance too. And that it was damaged in whatever event caused the mansion to be destroyed.

There is also the possibility that Sakutaro was mass produced after Rosa's death.
Anti-Rosa was probably sold by Eva to another company or dismembered, in that case it is possible that the sketches that Rosa made to study Sakutaro's design were found by someone who then used them to make a series of commercial plushes.

Or maybe it is Rosa herself who got the idea in the first place and what she gave to Maria was the prototype.

Pika_power · 2010-06-03, 14:30

Is Rosa's company really called 'Anti-Rosa'? If Anti were in Katakana, could it be read as 'aunty' instead? Something seems off about that particular name, and I think we would have gotten at least a small explanation for the weird 'anti'.

Jan-Poo · 2010-06-03, 14:55

Yes that's actually the name and in katakana is written as "アンチ"　ANCHI.

Even more weird is the company's catchphrase: "I can't forgive the way I was before today"

Thunder Book · 2010-06-03, 18:03

Wow... that's creepy.

TkMacintosh · 2010-06-03, 20:52

Its most likely been said already but.....

Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only

To me, it sounds like Rosa did make the original Sakutaro BY HAND, and decided that after seeing how happy it made Maria, Rosa may have mass-produced them to market to the world...

And if we guess that the rest of the statement was "the only one made by Rosa." (now this is just a pure guess and hypothetical and only using the red to fill in the missing gap) because for all we know Beatrice was talking about the ORIGNAL body.

The new body of Sakutaro had yet to be revealed to both Maria and Beatrice, so to Beatrice and Maria, Ange actually summoned the body of the original Sakutaro when she could've just as easily summoned the body she found in the futon shop >.>

Maybe I'm completely wrong and just spewing garbage :x But that's just my 2 cents in...

Vega Lyra · 2010-06-04, 10:14

I have noticed something - it doesn't relate to what has been just discussed.

In EP1, wasn't it strange that for the first night, the schedules for the servants have been almost completely reversed? Only Gohda had the night shift at the mansion, while Kanon and Shannon had the night shift at the guesthouse. Kumasawa and Genji were ordered to stay in the guesthouse. This schedule change was due to Krauss' orders. I think the siblings and their spouses already began having their suspicions at that point.

ShikiGamiLD · 2010-06-06, 13:43

I already knew what was the thing Ange found inside Capitan Kawabata's house, but now I just confirmed it by looking again at the anime:

Spoiler for Solution:

Thunder Book · 2010-06-06, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShikiGamiLD

I already knew what was the thing Ange found inside Capitan Kawabata's house, but now I just confirmed it by looking again at the anime:

Spoiler for Solution:

Can we really trust the anime on this though?

2009-12-20, 21:33	Link #4485
ferthepoet Member Join Date: Apr 2004	About the names Don't know if this has been discussed before but can any japaneese speaker confirm if the following deductions about the names and the loopholes that can apply are correct: Battler Jessica Maria George Rudolf Krauss Eva and Rosa Are names made up by Kinzo in a weird japaneese spelling nobody else would use so are definately exclusive to the Ushiromiya family, are not the actual western names so Beatrice cant say George is dead and then claim she was talking about George Washington... none are these names a ramdom japaneese person not related to the Ushiromiya family can have Nanjo is a family name so when Beatrice claim Nanjo is dead she could be referring to someone else in Nanjo's family? Kannon and Shannon Are also names made up in Kinzo that no ramdom person in Japan should have, however they are not real names, we dunno know the last name of either so if for example they are Nanjos illegitimate children they could be counted twice, for example Beatrice could say Shannon is death and Nanjo [sayo] is dead while Dr. Nanjo is alive. We of course dunno know Kannon first name either so if it matches somebody else in the list it could be used for counting twice the same death. Kyrie Hideyoshi Kinzo Natsuhi Ghoda Genghi and Kumazawa Are normal japaneese names so when beatrice says Natsuhi is dead she could be referring to a ramdom person called Natsuhi in tokyo while the Natushi we know is alive

2009-12-20, 21:54	Link #4486
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Well actually it can't be George Washington because that "George" can't have his name written in Kanji, at best it would be in katakana. The names of the Ushiromiya family members are pretty much unique, and I wouldn't be surprised if in the real world there is absolutely no one with most of those names, matching both the way they are written and the way they are pronounced. That however doesn't stop theories about the possibility of homonymous people in Umineko. We know that in at least one case (Battler) there is one, and that's the strangest name among everyone else. Personally I find the idea that Beatrice could use red in this way rather silly, but it is an undeniable fact that she herself used the non exclusivity of names as an argument to defeat Battler's red. __________________

2010-06-03, 07:38	Link #4489
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	In the anime you clearly see a Sakutaro plush (or a lot of them? not clear) inside a bag. there's been speculations about Sakutaro being actually a commercial plush and not an hand-made one. The issue is not totally resolved. There is a red used by Beatrice that claims that Sakutaro was made by Rosa, but it was interrupted. Some believe that the red should be considered valid until the very part that was blocked (which was "the only one in the world") Some other believe that the whole red truth should be considered invalid. In any case It can be said with certainty that Sakutaro is not the only one in the world, so what Ange saw in Kawabata's futon shop was most certainly a Sakutaro. __________________

2010-06-03, 14:55	Link #4495
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Yes that's actually the name and in katakana is written as "アンチ"　ANCHI. Even more weird is the company's catchphrase: "I can't forgive the way I was before today" __________________

2010-06-04, 10:14	Link #4498
Vega Lyra <Congratulations>!!!! Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Belgium	I have noticed something - it doesn't relate to what has been just discussed. In EP1, wasn't it strange that for the first night, the schedules for the servants have been almost completely reversed? Only Gohda had the night shift at the mansion, while Kanon and Shannon had the night shift at the guesthouse. Kumasawa and Genji were ordered to stay in the guesthouse. This schedule change was due to Krauss' orders. I think the siblings and their spouses already began having their suspicions at that point. __________________ \| DeviantArt \|

2009-12-19, 10:42	Link #4481
Racheya-sama Witch of Ambition Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manchester, England	Before Maria, I'm pretty sure it was Kyrie in one of the guest rooms at the main mansion when she was on the phone to Battler.

2010-06-03, 07:06	Link #4488
AnjinForever Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	Sorry if this has been asked, and it probably has, but do we know what Ange saw at the boatman's house that caused her and those with her to react so strongly? It was worded as vaguely as could be possible and I'm assuming since 4 was still a 'question' arc it's something we're probably still being kept in the dark about but if someone has figured it out I'd love to hear it. Alternatively if it's something revealed in a later game PMing me about it would be great to prevent spoilers for others.

2010-06-03, 09:04	Link #4490
AnjinForever Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	Wow. That certainly is important. I wonder... OHHHHH! So that's why Ange was able to produce the miracle of resurrection for Maria! At first I was thinking: man they should have mentioned something that important in the game, but now that I think about what happens when Ange meets up with Maria it makes a lot of sense. I'll have to go back and watch the anime again to see if there's anything else they put in there that I missed on my first watch.

2010-06-03, 13:14	Link #4491
Frisko Member Join Date: Dec 2008	It's revealed to be Sakutarou in one of the extra tips. Furthermore, given what the tip says, I believe that rather then mass-producing him, Rosa made a single new Sakutarou to give Maria, but died before she had the chance too. And that it was damaged in whatever event caused the mansion to be destroyed.

2010-06-03, 13:26	Link #4492
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	I'm not sure this was presented well in the anime but in the game this whole idea of Ange finding a bunch of Sakutarous in a bag and then in a magic scene her representing that she revived him is a big clue on several things: 1. How 'magic' works. 2. How the story can introduce development for a character that is supposed to be dead. (Maria.)

2010-06-03, 14:30	Link #4494
Pika_power Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Zealand	Is Rosa's company really called 'Anti-Rosa'? If Anti were in Katakana, could it be read as 'aunty' instead? Something seems off about that particular name, and I think we would have gotten at least a small explanation for the weird 'anti'.

2010-06-03, 18:03	Link #4496
Thunder Book Endless Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Wow... that's creepy.

2010-06-03, 20:52	Link #4497
TkMacintosh Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	Its most likely been said already but..... Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only To me, it sounds like Rosa did make the original Sakutaro BY HAND, and decided that after seeing how happy it made Maria, Rosa may have mass-produced them to market to the world... And if we guess that the rest of the statement was "the only one made by Rosa." (now this is just a pure guess and hypothetical and only using the red to fill in the missing gap) because for all we know Beatrice was talking about the ORIGNAL body. The new body of Sakutaro had yet to be revealed to both Maria and Beatrice, so to Beatrice and Maria, Ange actually summoned the body of the original Sakutaro when she could've just as easily summoned the body she found in the futon shop >.> Maybe I'm completely wrong and just spewing garbage :x But that's just my 2 cents in...

2010-06-06, 13:43	Link #4499
ShikiGamiLD Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	I already knew what was the thing Ange found inside Capitan Kawabata's house, but now I just confirmed it by looking again at the anime: Spoiler for Solution: