Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nudvik

It's true that it could merely be Yuki's opinions on the subject. Maybe she even stuck Mikuru with Haruhi for the lulz.
I suppose the only one who's feelings are surely represented by this are Yuki's herself, but she's pretty damn astute and has had several hundred years to get to know them. So I'm inclined to trust her judgement about who is most attracted to whom :P

On that subject, I'm certain Haruhi is bi, or at least bi-curious. I can only imagine how she'd have reacted if she'd gotten a visit from Mikuru-chan!

I'm not sure about that, now. Haruhi has always seemingly shown the most pure lust for Mikuru - there's no other character that Haruhi has groped in a sexual fashion to anywhere near the degree that she has with Mikuru. So for Haruhi to not get Mikuru... makes me think that Haruhi may have been just totally messing around here; as in she was just feeling up the moe mascot out of sheer excitement over having the perfect moe mascot. Kind of like a girl playing with her favorite doll a lot... doesn't make her lesbian at all.

And yet Kyon won out over Mikuru... maybe Haruhi is quite straight herself.

[Nudvik]

Yeah, that would be pretty odd. The question is how she'd have reacted though... I think she would probably just be a bit baffled and ask Mikuru if she had a fever or something.
I'm sure Kyon however would have received a very different reaction. I'm almost certain that Haruhi let "fake Kyon" get pretty far before she decided to punch him. My guess is that she was dumbfounded into silence until slightly past the point where he leaned over and kissed her. Maybe even getting as far as a slight fondle before getting a smack in the mouth :P

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not sure about that, now. Haruhi has always seemingly shown the most pure lust for Mikuru - there's no other character that Haruhi has groped in a sexual fashion to anywhere near the degree that she has with Mikuru. So for Haruhi to not get Mikuru... makes me think that Haruhi may have been just totally messing around here; as in she was just feeling up the moe mascot out of sheer excitement over having the perfect moe mascot. Kind of like a girl playing with her favorite doll a lot... doesn't make her lesbian at all.

And yet Kyon won out over Mikuru... maybe Haruhi is quite straight herself.

I think her relation with Mikuru is just like that. The 'toy' metaphor is used more then once, if I am not mistake.

But, eh, she herself said it don't matter if is male or female. So I guess bi-curious is a good guess.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I think her relation with Mikuru is just like that. The 'toy' metaphor is used more then once, if I am not mistake.

But, eh, she herself said it don't matter if is male or female. So I guess bi-curious is a good guess.

I don't recall hearing or reading that. Do you know where that Haruhi quote is from?

[Nudvik]

Like Heath said, I think the reason Haruhi is so aggressive with Mikuru is her submissive personality. She almost surely finds her appealing on some sexual level though, since she comments on it numerous times and seems to have a love of undressing and groping her.

That doesn't necessarily mean she prefers her though, it just makes her an easier target to release a bit of sexual frustration on.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't recall hearing or reading that. Do you know where that Haruhi quote is from?

Which bit are you referring to? The part about Mikuru being a plaything, or Haruhi saying gender doesn't matter in a relationship?

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't recall hearing or reading that. Do you know where that Haruhi quote is from?

From the very first novel:

Originally Posted by Baka-Tsuki

Spoiler for Novel1 Chapter1:

"Then, what kind of boy would you consider 'interesting'? Is it going to be an alien after all?"

"I am fine with aliens or similar things as long as they are not normal. Be they male or female."

The first chronologic episode also has this dialogue. Around 11:54 min.


For the Mikuru being a toy, I don't remeber which chapter was, but was on novel2. You must remember, since you read recently.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't recall hearing or reading that. Do you know where that Haruhi quote is from?

Pre-SOS Brigade Haruhi, way back in Melancholy. Her only requirements were "Not an ordinary human," followed by stating that gender doesn't matter.

*e* Beaten to it again

[quigonkenny]

Judas H. Priest! Did this two-month-old thread just half-again its length in less than a day? Let's see if I can catch up...

On canon (not "cannon", as that's an explosive projectile weapon used mostly by pirates and Looney Tunes characters):

Just go to this page. It defines canon better in a handful of paragraphs than the last 8 pages of this thread have. Then flip over to the "fanon" link in the last paragraph of the description to see where speculation fits in. Fear the mad skilz of TV Tropes.

As it pertains to Haruhi, canon is simply defined. If Tanigawa wrote it, it's canon. If not, it ain't. But keep in mind that some of the derivative works can have their own canon.

On shipping:

Any shipping argument is irrelevant without... Well, let's be honest. Unless we're writing the official story, it's irrelevant anyway because we aren't writing it. But if we want to discuss possibilities, we have to take into account two things in order to honestly appraise the situation. That's how we want it and how it actually appears to be heading, as one will naturally affect the perception of the other.

Listening to my heart:
KyonxYuki -- 35%
KyonxTsuruya-san - 35%
KyonxMikuru - 10%
None of the above - 20%

Actually paying attention:
KyonxHaruhi - 50%
KyonxYuki - 25%
KyonxTsuruya-san - 5%
None of the above - 20%

Slider-tan is either an AU Imouto-chan or an AU Tsuruya-san, (de)aged appropriately. Those are the only characters whose personalities fit. An alter!Tsuruya would have to be the largest change, as she would not be speaking in a Kansai dialect and would have to look almost completely different, as the difference of two years from high school senior to high school freshman is not enough to mask identity (unlike the three years from prepubescent Middle School freshman to hormonal High School freshman).

Staying on the volumes 9/10 trip, only one timeline will remain, and that will be alpha, since they have an apparent slider and still generally come across more as the "control" timeline. How exactly the unlucky one (beta) "bites it" will be the point of the story. And hopefully worth the wait. I'm hoping for "violent and flashy" myself (with a healthy dose of "mindfuck"), but I wouldn't be surprised if we got some kind of merging...

As for the Snow Mountain "hook ups", don't read too much into those. Yuki set those up intentionally so that a diagram of the situation would look like "4", which was the solution to getting the group out of the trap. While it certainly gives the reader something to think about, it can't really be taken seriously.

Did I miss anything?

[Ithekro]

Haruhi would've been freaked out by, say, an assertive Mikuru

That would be amusing to watch.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Judas H. Priest! Did this two-month-old thread just half-again its length in less than a day? Let's see if I can catch up...

On canon (not "cannon", as that's an explosive projectile weapon used mostly by pirates and Looney Tunes characters):

Err, I did make some mistakes some pages back didn't I?

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Just go to this page. It defines canon better in a handful of paragraphs than the last 8 pages of this thread have. Then flip over to the "fanon" link in the last paragraph of the description to see where speculation fits in. Fear the mad skilz of TV Tropes.

As it pertains to Haruhi, canon is simply defined. If Tanigawa wrote it, it's canon. If not, it ain't. But keep in mind that some of the derivative works can have their own canon.

TVtropes is awesome. Anyway, I agree with you here. I think this was the concensus we had agree.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

On shipping:

Any shipping argument is irrelevant without... Well, let's be honest. Unless we're writing the official story, it's irrelevant anyway because we aren't writing it. But if we want to discuss possibilities, we have to take into account two things in order to honestly appraise the situation. That's how we want it and how it actually appears to be heading, as one will naturally affect the perception of the other.

Eh, we are speculating what Tanigawa is goign to do. Not nvent anything.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Listening to my heart:
KyonxYuki -- 35%
KyonxTsuruya-san - 35%
KyonxMikuru - 10%
None of the above - 20%

You don't like Haruhi right?

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Slider-tan is either an AU Imouto-chan or an AU Tsuruya-san, (de)aged appropriately. Those are the only characters whose personalities fit. An alter!Tsuruya would have to be the largest change, as she would not be speaking in a Kansai dialect and would have to look almost completely different, as the difference of two years from high school senior to high school freshman is not enough to mask identity (unlike the three years from prepubescent Middle School freshman to hormonal High School freshman).

Maybe Tsuruya's young sister? I don't like Imouto theory though. For some reason.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Staying on the volumes 9/10 trip, only one timeline will remain, and that will be alpha, since they have an apparent slider and still generally come across more as the "control" timeline. How exactly the unlucky one (beta) "bites it" will be the point of the story. And hopefully worth the wait. I'm hoping for "violent and flashy" myself (with a healthy dose of "mindfuck"), but I wouldn't be surprised if we got some kind of merging...

Agree

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

As for the Snow Mountain "hook ups", don't read too much into those. Yuki set those up intentionally so that a diagram of the situation would look like "4", which was the solution to getting the group out of the trap. While it certainly gives the reader something to think about, it can't really be taken seriously.

Yeah, it is true. I don't think it was completly random, though. But is not reliable, anyway.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Did I miss anything?

I believe not. Good job.

Originally Posted by Kotetsu Shirogane

*e* Beaten to it again

Buwahahah A mere battleship is nome match to my fastpost skils!

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

As for the Snow Mountain "hook ups", don't read too much into those. Yuki set those up intentionally so that a diagram of the situation would look like "4", which was the solution to getting the group out of the trap.

I still don't think Nagato had anything to do with that, to be honest... that's a bit of an out there "hint," even for her.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

*snip*

When you compare our posts, it's easy to see I got all my ideas from you.

Thank you, though. You shaped me during my formative years as a Haruhi fan at Baka-Tsuki, so I guess I can consider you "sensei", or something...

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

I still don't think Nagato had anything to do with that, to be honest... that's a bit of an out there "hint," even for her.

It was probably Yuki's poor sense of humor kicking in again...

[Nudvik]

I'm going to have to reread volume 9 next so I can give my thoughts on this whole "Slider-tan is Imouto/Tsuruya theory". Honestly, I think both of those sound way off. Right now I think it's far more likely she's either a) A person he knew from middle school, or b) Someone who has never known in this dimension, but possesses imperfect knowledge of though a connection. Similar to how he remembers the Brigade's little Theatre adventure.


I'm also gonna drop my current "Where does the power come from theory" in here:

Kyon holds the core of the data entity.

For me it explains a lot of things, like how a human can have access to vast powers only displayed by the information lifeforms.
Why Kyon is constantly monitored and sought after by the various factions.
Why pretty much every important event attributed to Haruhi involves Kyon in some way. Such as the most important incident 3 years ago where HE was the one to actually draw the symbols. Which he got from Yuki as a card, and knew beforehand what they actually looked like. Did they turn out exactly as Haruhi planned, or did she merely accept whatever crazy patterns emerged?
The reason Yuki is unquestioningly obedient to Kyon, even when faced with angering Haruhi and possibly jeopardising her mission as a result.
Then most recently, why Sasaki and the anti-SOS seem to need Kyon (an apparently normal person) in order to acquire power from Haruhi...

This to me makes a hell of a lot more sense than the whole "Haruhi is a God" idea, since nothing supernatural has ever made an appearance in Haruhi. With everything being explainable scientifically (in the novels). Using that as a premise, the only known source for such a power would be the data entities or something very similar.


P.S. I look forward to getting this theory mercilessly shot down...

[Tyabann]

Oh dear.

Originally Posted by Nudvik

Kyon holds the core of the data entity.

Where is the evidence of this...? What kind of thinking would lead you to this conclusion...?

Originally Posted by Nudvik

Such as the most important incident 3 years ago where HE was the one to actually draw the symbols.

Sigh...

BLR IS NOT THE THREE YEARS AGO INCIDENT.

Mikuru cannot travel past that point. Hence, BLR is AFTER that. HARUHI ALREADY HAS HER POWERS.

I don't know how many times I've said this. -_-

Originally Posted by Nudvik

Then most recently, why Sasaki and the anti-SOS seem to need Kyon (an apparently normal person) in order to acquire power from Haruhi...

It's probably because of Haruhi's emotional dependency on him. They need to use him as a conduit of some sort. "Key to everything", after all.

Originally Posted by Nudvik

This to me makes a hell of a lot more sense than the whole "Haruhi is a God" idea, since nothing supernatural has ever made an appearance in Haruhi.

Lemme guess. You've played Umineko, and you're Anti-Fantasy, right? -_-

"How the hell does a baseball bat move that fast? I've got it! Small bombs were involved!"

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Nudvik

I'm going to have to reread volume 9 next so I can give my thoughts on this whole "Slider-tan is Imouto/Tsuruya theory". Honestly, I think both of those sound way off. Right now I think it's far more likely she's either a) A person he knew from middle school, or b) Someone who has never known in this dimension, but possesses imperfect knowledge of though a connection. Similar to how he remembers the Brigade's little Theatre adventure.


I'm also gonna drop my current "Where does the power come from theory" in here:

Kyon holds the core of the data entity.

For me it explains a lot of things, like how a human can have access to vast powers only displayed by the information lifeforms.
Why Kyon is constantly monitored and sought after by the various factions.
Why pretty much every important event attributed to Haruhi involves Kyon in some way. Such as the most important incident 3 years ago where HE was the one to actually draw the symbols. Which he got from Yuki as a card, and knew beforehand what they actually looked like. Did they turn out exactly as Haruhi planned, or did she merely accept whatever crazy patterns emerged?
The reason Yuki is unquestioningly obedient to Kyon, even when faced with angering Haruhi and possibly jeopardising her mission as a result.
Then most recently, why Sasaki and the anti-SOS seem to need Kyon (an apparently normal person) in order to acquire power from Haruhi...

This to me makes a hell of a lot more sense than the whole "Haruhi is a God" idea, since nothing supernatural has ever made an appearance in Haruhi. With everything being explainable scientifically (in the novels). Using that as a premise, the only known source for such a power would be the data entities or something very similar.


P.S. I look forward to getting this theory mercilessly shot down...

The Kyon's Theory. Yeah.

Well, first, the "incident 3 years ago" was not Tanabata. The time-travelers can't back before it, remember? I got the impression that it was the baseball game Haruhi talked about on the first novel.
He may be needed by Sasaki's "brigade" because Haruhi is obviously in love with him. It is hard to say though.
He is monitore by every faction for the same reason. He is 'the key of everything'.

Also, is hard to explain book7 with that theory. A lot of things happens, but all were meanless. Except it makes him forget Valentine's Day. What Haruhi wish, for sure (to make a surprise).

This theory is not impossible. But I believe Kyon is only important because Haruhi wants him to be important. She likes Kyon, so she wants him to be awesome. Also, She surelly belive that John Smith have many cool adventures with aliens, time travelers and ESPers (but not sliders). So Kyon have that advantures.

PP:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Lemme guess. You've played Umineko, and you're Anti-Fantasy, right? -_-

"How the hell does a baseball bat move that fast? I've got it! Small bombs were involved!"

I must play it!

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Nudvik

Such as the most important incident 3 years ago where HE was the one to actually draw the symbols. Which he got from Yuki as a card, and knew beforehand what they actually looked like. Did they turn out exactly as Haruhi planned, or did she merely accept whatever crazy patterns emerged?

Kyon didn't really get a good look at what was on the card until after Mikuru woke up, and hadn't heard about the incident until Taniguchi mentioned it to him. Plus, it's made pretty clear 3YA Haruhi instructed him during the process.

[Ithekro]

Sigh is probably a better way to prove Haruhi's power as it is her whims that are happening to the real world.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I must play it!

That isn't an actual quote.

I do suggest you play Umineko though, as it's quite good.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Sigh is probably a better way to prove Haruhi's power as it is her whims that are happening to the real world.

Yeah, it's still the biggest roadblock for the Kyon Theory to date.

[Nudvik]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Where is the evidence of this...? What kind of thinking would lead you to this conclusion...?

I believe I just demonstrated some of it.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Mikuru cannot travel past that point. Hence, BLR is AFTER that. HARUHI ALREADY HAS HER POWERS.

Cannot travel past isn't the same as cannot travel to...
They go back 3 years into the past, the same time as the where the barrier and time-quake first happened. I'm not seeing anything to say this isn't the cause. If you have any evidence, please present it.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's probably because of Haruhi's emotional dependency on him. They need to use him as a conduit of some sort. "Key to everything", after all.

I don't see how this is any better than my theory. Especially considering that Kyon states right at the very start how he wants all this to happen, yet would prefer to remain as a side character. Hence Haruhi appearing to be the target for all this.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That isn't an actual quote.

I do suggest you play Umineko though, as it's quite good.

But was something like that right? Crazy stuff being reasonable with absurd theorys? Like the very agile pervert.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Yeah, it's still the biggest roadblock for the Kyon Theory to date.

No! Kyon likes Haruhi so much that he feels bad for her when she is bad. Yeah, for sure.