The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[GMT]

How to review this episode? As LN readers know, this is the point where Haruhi reaches her moral nadir. The fact that the LNs continue for seven more volumes after this shows that, well, she gets better. Well enough that people are willing to continue to read about Haruhi's world.

And then it got adapted for the anime. Haruhi's Dark Side, in all its ugliness is on stark, unflinching display. Here, we have someone who, not only flirts with The Line, but would cheerfully go screaming over The Line, and over the moral event horizon beyond if not properly restrained.

She pushed Kyon to the very limit of his seemingly unending patience. So much so that Kyon, of all people, lost it. Were it not for Koizumi, he would've pounded Haruhi into next week. And a good lawyer would've gotten him off on self-defense. Trying to deflect her with words didn't work. As we all recall, Kyon was pushed far enough last week to physically man-handle Haruhi. And that didn't work either. Trying to pound some sense into Haruhi was the least-unpleasant option out of a whole plate of really unpleasant options presented to Kyon. And his dialogue makes it clear that he's doing it because he cares about Haruhi, and what could happen to her if he does nothing.

As we saw in this episode, Haruhi got the shock of her short life . . . that what she's doing has finally gotten to the one person whose thoughts and feelings she genuinely cares about. The storm of emotions which flashed across her face was beautifully done, as was her attempt to hide them by lashing out (only after it was clear Koizumi had Angry Kyon safely restrained.) And then everybody reacting to Kyon attempting to pull free, while letting Haruhi feel the full force of his rhetoric, was excellent. Even the normally-unfazable Tsuruya's expression tells us that this is no longer a laughing matter.

Koizumi is also in rare form this week. Here we see a man who seems to be making it clear that he does what he does because he feels its his duty to protect the world from Haruhi's brand of weirdness. His, and Kyon's, dejectedly gazing at the cherry blossoms that Kyon caused by, essentially, caving in to Haruhi, was especially poignant.

I gave this episode a 9 out of 10. Only a nine because, well, I never give 10s.

[Roger Rambo]

Could someone please explain to me what the hell is up with Kyon's fist? Was he trying to break his curled fingers on the top of Haruhi's head?





Why have people been calling this a falcon punch?

[Heminga13]

Itsuki may have been the one who pulled Kyon's arm upright when he grabbed it. It almost seemed like Kyon was moving his arm back then realized it was grabbed. Although I think Kyon was already moving it upright to begin with but I couldn't tell for sure.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Could someone please explain to me what the hell is up with Kyon's fist? Was he trying to break his curled fingers on the top of Haruhi's head?





Why have people been calling this a falcon punch?

It looked like he was going to pull a Mio and bring his fist down on top of Haruhi's head. It wasn't supposed to be a knock-out punch but more of a . . . physical correction of Haruhi's idiocy. Or something.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Heminga13

Itsuki may have been the one who pulled Kyon's arm upright when he grabbed it. It almost seemed like Kyon was moving his arm back then realized it was grabbed. Although I think Kyon was already moving it upright to begin with but I couldn't tell for sure.

That's not it. If you rewatch 14:07-14:08 a couple of time you'll realize that Kyon brought his hand up, the bottom side of his fist facing Haruhi and was moving it forward to strike her when Koizumi grabbed him.

So Kyon was trying to hammer Haruhi in the head with his fingers.

Originally Posted by GMT

It looked like he was going to pull a Mio and bring his fist down on top of Haruhi's head.

With the way the punch was flying he wasn't gonna hit her with his fist. He was gonna hit her with his curled up fingers. you do not hit people with your fingers

The guys at Kyoani haven't gotten into nearly enough fights.

Originally Posted by GMT

It wasn't supposed to be a knock-out punch but more of a . . . physical correction of Haruhi's idiocy. Or something.

It looked like Kyon was pretty serious about hitting Haruhi hard...but he was aiming for the top of her head.

Seriously punching someone on the top of the head is stupid. The skull is one of the hardest bones in the body. Even if we assume that Kyon wasn't actually going to hit Haruhi with his curled fingers (it really looks like that in slow mo), a hit with the knuckles isn't that much brighter of a thing to do.

[Heminga13]

Yeah, it's a really fast part of the scene but he does bring it up. Maybe he was planning to slap her?

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Could someone please explain to me what the hell is up with Kyon's fist? Was he trying to break his curled fingers on the top of Haruhi's head?

Why have people been calling this a falcon punch?

I would guess that his fist is pointing upward simply because Koizomi has grabbed it.

When regular people arm a punch, they do it usually by pulling their elbow backward, putting the forearm into an upward diagonal position. The arm ends up being a bit higher than the shoulder. If you grab the wrist at this time, it will end up with the arm pointing vertically.
As for the fist itself, well, it's a standard one when you want to smash it into people's face

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GMT

How to review this episode? As LN readers know, this is the point where Haruhi reaches her moral nadir. The fact that the LNs continue for seven more volumes after this shows that, well, she gets better. Well enough that people are willing to continue to read about Haruhi's world.

And then it got adapted for the anime. Haruhi's Dark Side, in all its ugliness is on stark, unflinching display. Here, we have someone who, not only flirts with The Line, but would cheerfully go screaming over The Line, and over the moral event horizon beyond if not properly restrained.

She pushed Kyon to the very limit of his seemingly unending patience. So much so that Kyon, of all people, lost it. Were it not for Koizumi, he would've pounded Haruhi into next week. And a good lawyer would've gotten him off on self-defense. Trying to deflect her with words didn't work. As we all recall, Kyon was pushed far enough last week to physically man-handle Haruhi. And that didn't work either. Trying to pound some sense into Haruhi was the least-unpleasant option out of a whole plate of really unpleasant options presented to Kyon. And his dialogue makes it clear that he's doing it because he cares about Haruhi, and what could happen to her if he does nothing.

Good review, overall, GMT, but... Kyon's doing this for Mikuru. That's the main reason why he's doing it. Haruhi's the secondary concern. Yes, he cares about Haruhi as well, but he's mainly doing it because he's sick and tired of watching Mikuru get abused. It's no coincidence that what finally calms Kyon down is a sprawling drunk Mikuru grabbing on to him and telling him to stop it.

I know that most folks here are KyonHaruhi shippers, but honestly folks... this is a KyonMikuru episode if ever there was one, and trying to twist it into a KyonHaruhi episode seems a bit wrong to me.

Seriously, it's like every little thing Kyon does has to be interpreted through a KyonHaruhi shipper lens, even when if you take his actions at face value at all, it means something different.

And then the response to Haruhi almost putting on a pony tail. Good grief, did this thread make a huge deal about that... You'd swear Haruhi just asked Kyon to have sex with her, or something.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Could someone please explain to me what the hell is up with Kyon's fist? Was he trying to break his curled fingers on the top of Haruhi's head?





Why have people been calling this a falcon punch?

Well, Captain Falcon's punch hit Black Shadow on the top of his head too, IIRC.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Heminga13

Yeah, it's a really fast part of the scene but he does bring it up. Maybe he was planning to slap her?

You don't slap people with a fist.

Originally Posted by Akka

I would guess that his fist is pointing upward simply because Koizomi has grabbed it.

No. Kyon brought his arm and fist up to that position, tried to lurch forward to hit Haruhi and THEN got grabbed. The orientation that Koizumi held Kyon is was the orientation he was swinging down at Haruhi with.

So logically speaking Kyon would have swung his fist downward and hit Haruhi on the head with his curled fingers.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, Captain Falcon's punch hit Black Shadow on the top of his head too, IIRC.

Captain Falcon hits people with his knuckles and then breaks them.

Captain Kyon hits people with his curled fingers and then breaks them.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

You don't slap people with a fist.

No. Kyon brought his arm and fist up to that position, tried to lurch forward to hit Haruhi and THEN got grabbed. The orientation that Koizumi held Kyon is was the orientation he was swinging down at Haruhi with.

So logically speaking Kyon would have swung his fist downward and hit Haruhi on the head with his curled fingers.

Captain Falcon hits people with his knuckles and then breaks them.

Captain Kyon hits people with his curled fingers and then breaks them.

Well, in all seriousness, maybe he was planning to pull his punch at the last second. Maybe give Haruhi a black eye, perhaps.

[Ithekro]

Or he doesn't know how to throw a punch. I don't.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, in all seriousness, maybe he was planning to pull his punch at the last second. Maybe give Haruhi a black eye, perhaps.

Kyon was obviously not trying to do that. He was seriously trying to hit Haruhi. But that doesn't alleviate the fundamental problem here. Kyon was trying to hit Haruhi with his curled fingers. It doesn't matter where you're trying to hit them when you do this. You're fingers are filled with loads of delicate little bones that break easily. That's why you typically don't bludgeon people with your fingers. You hit em with sturdier parts of your anatomy.

I'm pretty sure 3/4's of the people on animesuki could kick Kyon's ass at this point.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Or he doesn't know how to throw a punch. I don't.

Most people don't know how to throw a good punch. But at the same time I think most people can manage to throw a punch that won't break their hand.


Its lahk try-yun ter fight inna basement. Ya don't fight inna basement!

[Heminga13]

If I were to slap someone, I wouldn't necessarily open my hand out until I swing towards the person. It wouldn't seem unnatural to me to pull back with a fist first. Not that I've slapped anyone, mind you.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Kyon was obviously not trying to do that. He was seriously trying to hit Haruhi. But that doesn't alleviate the fundamental problem here. Kyon was trying to hit Haruhi with his curled fingers. It doesn't matter where you're trying to hit them when you do this. You're fingers are filled with loads of delicate little bones that break easily. That's why you typically don't bludgeon people with your fingers. You hit em with sturdier parts of your anatomy.

I'm pretty sure 3/4's of the people on animesuki could kick Kyon's ass at this point.

... Ok, KyoAni could have drawn the fist/arm position better. Happy now?

I was mainly focusing on punch trajectory when I brought up the black eye possibility. You're right, his knuckles are what should be aiming towards Haruhi. His fingers are in hard shape if they connect Haruhi's head that way.

Anyway, Roger, thanks to you I have a new appreciation for that scene.

Itsuki (thinking to himself): Kyon, you idiot! I can't have you go breaking your hand like that! It would ruin all the FABULOUS plans that I have for the two of us... *Ahem*

That's also the real meaning behind Itsuki's stern look, lol.

[Akka]

Because this sidetrack is actually fun : I watched it again image by image.
It seems that he wanted to try what we call a tetsui (IIRC the spelling) : that is, a downward smash with the low part of the closed hand, like this : .

It's not how I would have intuitively hit someone, but then Haruhi is smaller than him, and it's probably psychologically easier for most people to hit a girl on the top of the head rather than square in the face.

[Heminga13]

So Kyon's more like the Hulk instead of Captain Falcon.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

KYON SMASH!

... meanwhile, Mikuru smashed.

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

I always interpreted Koizumi's expression when he stops Kyon from slugging Haruhi to mean "You fool! You'll doom us all!" (as in "seriously offend her and she'll reboot the world")

Kyon's fists shatter worlds. Reboot her before she reboots you.

Really enjoyed Kyon calling Haruhi out for her attitude, Haruhi's shock when she saw the fist, her depression afterward, and the return of the experimental mini-ponytail.

Originally Posted by Akka

KYON, YOU HAVE TWO HANDS ! If this idiot Koizumi hold one, PUNCH THE BITCH WITH THE OTHER !

We think the same. But then I got to thinking...

Originally Posted by Akka

Use your legs then ! HIGH-KICK TO THE FACE !

Right, using Strong Man Koizumi to push off of. Would have worked even better.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Episode 23 article is up:

[RIUVA] Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (2009), Episode 23: Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki IV

This. This is the Suzumiya Haruhi I remember. 10/10.

Yeah....not quite for me. There was like all of one moment that I could point to and say was at all memorable or exceptionally well done about this episode versus several dozen in your average episode of the first season (I think my favourite is still the baseball episode), and really I still say Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody was the only really solid episode in the long run. Not my idea of a return to form by a long shot. If this is where people want to draw the line and say "this is Haruhi/anime at it's finest" then so be it, but I still expect a lot more out of a studio and anime that is supposed to theoretically be top class. This is still just way to shaky and gives that all to dreaded second season feeling of rehashing things, but I guess if I were to adopt the standard of the episode just existing and the characters doing their usual things with one decent dramatic twist as one to praise the producers highly for then I'd be giving it a 10/10 too.

I also have to disagree that the animation this episode was at all exceptional, but merely above average. I've seen better usage of the cherry blossom effect in other shows and just plain better animation from this studio period that you'd think they would be putting into one of their most popular franchises. Maybe this really is all there is too Kyoani/Kadokawa's adaptation of Haruhi and this is the standard I should settle for, but it's still disappointing and in my opinion not the top class work it's been made out to be anymore if it ever really was. These characters no longer come across as very fresh or well thought out to me and neither does the overall narrative for that matter, but oh well I guess they are at least good to look at and easy on the eyes.

I guess there's two sides to how I watch this show. One side has me just kicking back and letting it do whatever and chuckling at it for what it is (even if it's still far from the most entertaining show I'm watching this season), the other side expects it to live up to more than just a fraction of the hype it has always gotten and for it to earn some real praise that I could actually put some serious weight behind rather than just a token gesture.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Akka

Because this sidetrack is actually fun : I watched it again image by image.
It seems that he wanted to try what we call a tetsui (IIRC the spelling) : that is, a downward smash with the low part of the closed hand, like this : .

Of course that involves having your hand turned on it's side, rather than level. The latter of which being what Kyon's hand was like. So unless was planning to twist his hand into a proper hammer strike, he was gonna hit with his fingers rather than with the bottom of his fist.

Given Kyon's lack any sort of formal or even amateur HTH fighting experiance, I somehow doubt this was the case.


It seems far more likely that the animators didn't stop to visualize what a successful strike actually looks like before sitting down and doing the scene.

Originally Posted by Heminga13

So Kyon's more like the Hulk instead of Captain Falcon.

Relatively speaking, yes.

Of course Hulk ussually doesn't try smashing with his fingers