Da Capo Second Season

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Searcher

We were mislead!

At least i was.

I was misled that DCSS was going to be a heart wrneching drama with the way they built up kotori in first few eps While I DIDN'T expect Kotori to actually beat out nemu as the girl to be. I was expecting a lot more out of her character then just silent suffering. The shows writers really waste a lot of potiential here.

As for Shuffle, arbitary isn't really a good word to describe. Arbitary would mean that they pull a ending out of a hat. And Shuffle, if you look back you can see the ending was plan form the start, with a lot of hints in the earlier episodes that didn't stand out till you see the ending.

As for DCSS, I feel since they didn't plan for Kotori to do much in the first place, they should have just cut the series length to 12 eps and not built kotori up in the first few eps.

My biggest problem with DCSS was that kotori was way to passive, instead of going down fighting for what she wants, she took it all passively

[AvatarST]

Ahh...I'd state my opinion. Spoiler tags since all 26 episodes aren't subbed...

Spoiler:

From an objective point of view, I think we all should agree that the ending of DCSS was justified. The story was always heading there, the characters' behaviour was consistant (though I admit I didn't get why they said that Jyunichi had changed all the way back in episode 1, when it was proven right after that he was still the same lazy guy), and the story is told in a good, accurrate way. The show delivers a message and manages to do it quite well, and everything, or at least almost everything, clicks in perfectly. The show is pointless only if you look at plot progression since there wasn't much of that, but it does deliver a powerful message.

Regarding Kotori, I agree that she was underutilized. Not only from the first few episodes but also from the promo art, OP, and from the comment coming from Circus that she would be a central part of the plot along with Aisha, you'd think that she'd have a bigger role. Here, I see 3 parts of the story: Nemu and Jyunichi, Aisha (and Sakura), and "everyone else". Kotori falls in this latter group. Sure she had more screentime than the other girls in the harem but what DCSS told us was that people who love each other should be together (which is also why there was no reason to redeem Nemu or make her grow up, since whether she's the nicest or most deserving doesn't matter) and life isn't as simple as "everyone can be happy through magic", and that not always things are fair. This is also clear because Kotori doesn't really feature in the closure (and especially in the last episode) any more prominently than for example Mako, putting her aside with the whole group.
So, and forgive the expression, to say that Kotori would be a central part of the story is nothing short of laughable, and while I do understand that she had to be put with everyone else to deliver the message the show did, I do question the reason behind building up her role, not only through the show but also through the things surrounding it.

As to whether it could be done in 13 episodes or not, I don't know. The pacing would be faster, but this story didn't need fast pacing to begin with, and the way they subtly drop hints pointing towards the end and develop the storyline needed it to be at least as lenghty as 24 episodes. It could most definitely be done in 13, but I think that the writing wouldn't look as good.

Now, personally, and throwing all objectiveness aside, I didn't enjoy DCSS that much. I had different expectations for this, and I thought I'd had enough Jyunichi and Nemu in the first season. Yes, what I'm basically saying is that I wish this had been a different story. I don't expect them to break those two up since they're meant to be together, but I did want everyone else to get more focus, and in the end, everyone else was just that; "everyone else". While I do think that the Kotori thing is a flaw within the show, and it's one of the bigger reasons that hurt my enjoyment of it, everything else I'm saying here completely personal preference, and I realize that.
While the storytelling and writing were great, I didn't like the story itself and the way the characters were used. As for the message...well, we already got the "Nemu always wins" message back in the first season, but I suppose that this show did a good job of crushing that fairy tale ending of everyone being happy and it taught Aisha a nice lesson. It also shows that moving on is not impossible in the last few scenes since we see the girls enjoying themselves and pursuing their own dreams. The marriage...eh. Well, I don't really care about those two, but it was an appropiate ending.
Ironically, I think that the writing in DC season 1 wasn't as good as the writing in this season, but the first season was far more enjoyable, even if from an objective point of view, I'd rate that as average, maybe above average.

As for the Shuffle vs. DC argument, I have no doubt that the DC games, and no matter how much I like the Shuffle characters, blow the Shuffle game out of the water. The anime convesion(s), though, give me Shuffle anyday.

Oh, and the Asa choice was more than well justified IMO, they just managed to hide it well. By the time you realize it, when you look back, you can see all the hints they dropped, even if in the very beginning I was already counting her out of the race.

And I know that was a long post, and I hope it's understandable enough despite my broken English.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

My biggest problem with DCSS was that kotori was way to passive, instead of going down fighting for what she wants, she took it all passively

It'd be out of character for Kotori to do that though. She's too nice to do what Nemu or Sakura did back in season 1.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Spoiler:

Regarding Kotori, I agree that she was underutilized. Not only from the first few episodes but also from the promo art, OP, and from the comment coming from Circus that she would be a central part of the plot along with Aisha, you'd think that she'd have a bigger role. Here, I see 3 parts of the story: Nemu and Jyunichi, Aisha (and Sakura), and "everyone else". Kotori falls in this latter group. Sure she had more screentime than the other girls in the harem but what DCSS told us was that people who love each other should be together (which is also why there was no reason to redeem Nemu or make her grow up, since whether she's the nicest or most deserving doesn't matter) and life isn't as simple as "everyone can be happy through magic", and that not always things are fair. This is also clear because Kotori doesn't really feature in the closure (and especially in the last episode) any more prominently than for example Mako, putting her aside with the whole group.
So, and forgive the expression, to say that Kotori would be a central part of the story is nothing short of laughable, and while I do understand that she had to be put with everyone else to deliver the message the show did, I do question the reason behind building up her role, not only through the show but also through the things surrounding it.

Spoiler:

If you say so, although I firmly disagree. To me, the entire story revolved around Aisia and Kotori as they revealed the continuing story of Junichi and Nemu. These are the four chraracters who had a fully defined progression throughout the whole show - their stories had a fully developed "beginning", "middle", "climax", and "end" (Yes, end.). So, to me, Kotori was a central part of the story, and absolutely indespensible to the plot. I don't find the strong emphasis placed on her character to be "laughable" at all - she was one of the leads. But that's just me. I guess I tend to look at the story differently than you do, and that's okay.

Originally Posted by AvatarST

It'd be out of character for Kotori to do that though. She's too nice to do what Nemu or Sakura did back in season 1.

At least I agree with this. People who expected all of Kotori's "bottled up" frustration to be unleashed in jealous fits of rage really haven't given much thought to what makes Kotori, Kotori. Although this may sound cruel, the thing that makes her most endearing is how she suffers in silence. It's her personality that makes her character loveable, and if she were to all of a sudden change, she wouldn't be the same Kotori anymore.

Really, Second Season is an homage to the characters the way they were presented in the game/first season. It provides closure to the series and one last curtain call for everyone, and in that sense (personally) I found it immensely enjoyable. Then again, season one is one of my all-time favorite animes. Oh well... As they say, your mileage may vary.

P.S. Not even going to get into the whole "I was mislead!" thing again. Watch the first episode again when the new subs come out, and decide for yourself.

Edit: P.P.S. As for Shuffle, please re-read my clarification by what I meant by "arbitrary" - context is key. In D.C., you always knew from the start. In Shuffle, there were hints, but there was also doubt/possibilities. D.C. was never about possibilities, which is one of the main themes of Shuffle (even in the game). Anyway, that's another story.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler:

If you say so, although I firmly disagree. To me, the entire story revolved around Aisia and Kotori as they revealed the continuing story of Junichi and Nemu. These are the four chraracters who had a fully defined progression throughout the whole show - their stories had a fully developed "beginning", "middle", "climax", and "end" (Yes, end.).

Spoiler:

I guess that calling it "laughable" was too harsh, but due to my limited English I couldn't find any other way to express it, which is also why I apologized for the expression beforehand. And I wasn't really referring to you, more to what the director of circus had said. Both ways...

I think that the story could have easily been done without portraying Kotori as an important character in the beginning, since "everyone loves Jyunichi" was the most important thing regarding Aisha's thoughts. You could say Kotori was the one that loved him the most or the one that Aisha was closest to, but in the end she fulfills the same role as everyone else. I really don't see how it revolves around Aisha and Kotori more than it does around Aisha and the rest; even if Kotori had more screentime than the others (which is not saying that much either, but that's a different topic), I don't feel she was any more important when it comes to the message the show delivers and even the plot progression.

And what was Kotori's end anyway? Or everyone else's, for that matter?

[KBTKaiser]

Original/DCPS/DCPC ending?

Spoiler for Kotori Ending:

Kotori and Junichi had a fight a few days before Koyomi-sensei's wedding. The original idea for the couple was that Kotori would sing at the ceremony as a wedding present. Then some sort of rumor that Koyomi was hiring a group of musicians crushed poor Kotori. Kotori goes missing on the day of the wedding. Junichi tries to follow but gets a cell phone call from Koyomi first. Understanding the situation, Koyomi tells Junichi to find Kotori or else. Junichi finds Kotori under the sakura tree, where they kiss and make up and then head for the Wedding Ceremony. The song sung? Soyokaze no Harmony

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by KBTKaiser

Original/DCPS/DCPC ending?

Spoiler for Kotori Ending:

Kotori and Junichi had a fight a few days before Koyomi-sensei's wedding. The original idea for the couple was that Kotori would sing at the ceremony as a wedding present. Then some sort of rumor that Koyomi was hiring a group of musicians crushed poor Kotori. Kotori goes missing on the day of the wedding. Junichi tries to follow but gets a cell phone call from Koyomi first. Understanding the situation, Koyomi tells Junichi to find Kotori or else. Junichi finds Kotori under the sakura tree, where they kiss and make up and then head for the Wedding Ceremony. The song sung? Soyokaze no Harmony

Spoiler:

No, I know that one. Thanks anyway.
I was talking about her ending in DCSS, where I don't personally think she had much of one.

[KBTKaiser]

I think digging through Kurogane's screenshots will reveal all for that stuff.

[Searcher]

I was talking about her ending in DCSS, where I don't personally think she had much of one.

I don't think any girl except aisia had any sort of an ending.

It'd be out of character for Kotori to do that though

Why would it be out of her character? Cann't kotori get mad sometimes?
I had hoped that kotori would grow as a character, but that didn't happened.
Kotori still remained a sweet person who thinks of everybody else before her.
I would have hoped that she would get mad, or get stronger by deciding for herself that it's time to move on.
Put her feelings first and someone elses second.

Now i get visions of kotori liking another guy and when some other girl chases after him, kotori will back away, because she will think of that person feeling first and put hers second.

Ps. Is there new info about kotori's past in DC II?
Or did the producers wipe her past out in DC II?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Spoiler:

I think that the story could have easily been done without portraying Kotori as an important character in the beginning, since "everyone loves Jyunichi" was the most important thing regarding Aisha's thoughts. You could say Kotori was the one that loved him the most or the one that Aisha was closest to, but in the end she fulfills the same role as everyone else. I really don't see how it revolves around Aisha and Kotori more than it does around Aisha and the rest; even if Kotori had more screentime than the others (which is not saying that much either, but that's a different topic), I don't feel she was any more important when it comes to the message the show delivers and even the plot progression.

And what was Kotori's end anyway? Or everyone else's, for that matter?

Spoiler:

I figured you would say that. You can get rid of all the other girls, but you can't get rid of Kotori in this story - she was at every essential junction in the plot, and it was because we have access to her thoughts (narrative irony) that so much of the plot is revealed. This is very much in tune with how she was portrayed in Season One, except this time she wasn't a side character. Her internal narration revolved around the central theme, as opposed to her own story. That's what makes her part of the central cast, and why she was so prominently featured. Because of the plot progression, though, having her take a central role in every episode would have been redundant - other people complemented her role in the story.

There are problably three things about Kotori's story near the end that stick out as being critical to the plot and that resolve her story in the show. First, if Aisia's wish had come true, Kotori would have been the one to benefit most - this was made clear through numerous scenes and Suginami's handy dandy little chart. This is why Kotori's scenes with Junichi had a lot more weight. But secondly, Kotori was the first to question Aisia's new reality; first, just prior to the tree's power being completely revitalized, and then again in the final epsiode when she grabs Nemu aside to reunite her with Junichi (notice none of the other girls did that). This was enabled by the third thing, which was Kotori and Junichi's date at the end of 25, which completed the trilogy (beginning, middle, end) of occurances in the plot (1, 14, 25). These three things resolved her story in D.C.S.S. - the story of a girl whose feelings would never be returned, and who gave up those feelings to bring happiness to the guy she loved. She was proof and the example of the lesson that Sakura learned in Season one, and that Aisia had to learn the hard way in Season two - the only way to bring happiness to others is to sacrifice your own selfishness. In a nutshell, that lesson is what Kotori's character is all about.

Originally Posted by searcher

kotori will back away, because she will think of that person feeling first and put hers second.

That's the magic that makes other people happy - sacrificing your own selfishness, and truly putting other people first. Welcome to the point of D.C.S.S. -- at least, in my opinion.

[Searcher]

That's the magic that makes other people happy - sacrificing your own selfishness, and truly putting other people first. Welcome to the point of D.C.S.S. -- at least, in my opinion.

Dumb point in mine opinion.
That would mean that kotori would never be happy because she would keep other people's feelings first and never think about her's.
Even if she got married she would always put her husband feeling first, she would be just like a "slave".

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Searcher

Dumb point in mine opinion.
That would mean that kotori would never be happy because she would keep other people's feelings first and never think about her's.
Even if she got married she would always put her husband feeling first, she would be just like a "slave".

Well, I don't know... The idea here would be that true love means always putting the other person first. If you're in the sort of relationship where both people are looking out for the other person (see Junichi x Kotori in the game), that can bring true happiness to both people. Obviously, people with Kotori's personality type are highly vulnerable to people who would "take take take", but that's why Kotori fell in love with Junichi back when she had her mind-reading powers. She saw in him someone who truly cared about others - a real "nice guy" - as opposed to all the rest of the guys at school who all wanted her because she was cute/popular/whatever. Hopefully, in the story universe post second-season, she's able to find another guy like that who can return her feelings. I guess D.C. II may tell.

[BettiePage]

you do know japanese culture right? the wifes role is to support the husband and put the husbands wishes 1st.

this isnt america or europe. asia/japan is a very male dominated world.

sides who says one cant find personal happiness by helping the person you love be happy. when she marries who is to say that she wont be happy making sure that her husband comes 1st?

[Searcher]

I know the japanese culture, but atleast have kotori some backbone, just a little would be enough.
Besides supporting the husband doesn't mean you have to be weak.

who is to say that she wont be happy making sure that her husband comes 1st

Hmmm, picturing kotori married life.

Husband: I am having an affair with mine secretary!
Kotori: Whatever makes you happy

A good relationship means giving and taking!

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler:

There are problably three things about Kotori's story near the end that stick out as being critical to the plot and that resolve her story in the show. First, if Aisia's wish had come true, Kotori would have been the one to benefit most - this was made clear through numerous scenes and Suginami's handy dandy little chart. This is why Kotori's scenes with Junichi had a lot more weight. But secondly, Kotori was the first to question Aisia's new reality; first, just prior to the tree's power being completely revitalized, and then again in the final epsiode when she grabs Nemu aside to reunite her with Junichi (notice none of the other girls did that). This was enabled by the third thing, which was Kotori and Junichi's date at the end of 25, which completed the trilogy (beginning, middle, end) of occurances in the plot (1, 14, 25). These three things resolved her story in D.C.S.S. - the story of a girl whose feelings would never be returned, and who gave up those feelings to bring happiness to the guy she loved. She was proof and the example of the lesson that Sakura learned in Season one, and that Aisia had to learn the hard way in Season two - the only way to bring happiness to others is to sacrifice your own selfishness. In a nutshell, that lesson is what Kotori's character is all about.

Spoiler:

I think we just disagree in this. I agree she was the more prominent member of the harem but I don't view her as any more important as the other girls in terms of the message the show gave us. After all, Kotori had already given up since almost the beginning - she only took care of Jyunichi because she liked him, and when Nemu came back, she stepped away. She then fights to lose those feelings, and she's known what thing to do is for a long while - her explanation to Aisha in episode 8 confirms this, as well as the events in episode 15. However, by the end of the series, we can see that she's still trying to do the right thing - yet she didn't get rid of her feelings with Jyunichi. We've also shown that her life revolves around more than just him though, and that she can get over it; I think Tomo-chan and Mik-kun are proof of that. But I didn't really see any character growth for Kotori since she was sacrificing her own selfishness since the beginning, it was just that Aisha had to learn that.

So in terms of both plot progression and the message of the show I'd say that Kotori was important, but definitely not essential, and I feel she lacked a stronger closure (though like I've stated before that might've undermined the message of the show). It could've been a bit more focus on Mako, or Tamaki, or whoever - and it'd have been the same. You might say that the point is that it wasn't, but considering that DCSS tells us that all the girls feel the same way, I really don't think it'd be accurrate to call Kotori a central part of the story, and I firmly believe that it could've been done without needing to build up her role since Aisha's thoughts could've come (and at times they did, check episode 16) through other means.

I think that DCSS is about Aisha understanding and accepting reality the way it is, and that she's wrong that magic = happiness.

In addition to your reply to Searcher (and although it's probably the same thing you said but in a different way), I agree that Kotori was right to step back since she wasn't the one who Jyunichi loved. So yes, Kotori puts other people first - but what relentlessflame meant when he said "sacrificing your own selfishness and truly putting other people first" was obviously referring when that's the right thing to do.
However, even if she was the one Jyunichi loved, if there was competition, she might still step back ...she cares that much about other people, and she's that insecure. However, both in DCSS and in Kotori's route in DCPC we are told that love wins over all, as corny as that sounds; if the guy truly loves her, then he wouldn't let her go. Hell...Kotori's route is so perfect that even Nemu is actually nice in it.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Hopefully, in the story universe post second-season, she's able to find another guy like that who can return her feelings. I guess D.C. II may tell.

I feel that part of the reason why Kotori is so loved is that she's so miserable a lot of the time. We all want her to be happy but she won't be, so we love her more and keep hopelessly wishing that she'll once find truly happiness. Will Circus change this in DCII to please the fans or will they keep portraying Kotori as someone who is too nice yet can't find the correct way for her? (at least, in the anime, since she finds happiness in the game in her route and is actually one of the characters they give the most attention to).

Originally Posted by BettiePage

you do know japanese culture right? the wifes role is to support the husband and put the husbands wishes 1st.

I wonder if that's the reason why Nemu is actually a lot more popular in Japan (even if from what I've seen she's still behind Kotori), since she basically goes against the whole submissive thing and puts herself first a lot of the time.

Originally Posted by Searcher

I know the japanese culture, but atleast have kotori some backbone, just a little would be enough.
Besides supporting the husband doesn't mean you have to be weak.

Kotori's a lot stronger than you think when she gets over her insecurities (well, to a point, she'll always be a little insecure) in the game. She's not as submissive as other characters, she's just a truly nice, but overall quite normal girl, and somewhat playful too.

In fact, in both DCWS and DCSV, jealously and conflict play a part in Kotori's paths.

Originally Posted by Searcher

Hmmm, picturing kotori married life.

Husband: I am having an affair with mine secretary!
Kotori: Whatever makes you happy

Not unless her husband is scum. She just has to be lucky in who she falls in love with. Anime Jyunichi is meh, but game Jyunichi is actually cooler, so at least in the game she has good taste ^^. Both ways, I suspect she might pick someone as clueless and lazy as Jyunichi, but never a bad person.

[Furudanuki]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

It'd be out of character for Kotori to do that though. She's too nice to do what Nemu or Sakura did back in season 1.

Probably true, but it is not a very fair comparison. Since early childhood, Nemu and Sakura have been rivals for the affection of the people who mattered the most to them - Junichi and grandmother Yoshino. Given that history, it is only natural that there would be a lot more bitterness between the two of them than Kotori would likely feel toward them or one of the other girls. That said, I do think that Kotori - and Moe as well - are the most truly gentle souls in the series.

BTW - I only pop through occasionally because the discussion here is mostly about the end of the series and since I'm watching the subs I'm still back at episode 20. Can't avoid all spoilage, but I'm trying to keep it to a minimum.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Furudanuki

Probably true, but it is not a very fair comparison. Since early childhood, Nemu and Sakura have been rivals for the affection of the people who mattered the most to them - Junichi and grandmother Yoshino. Given that history, it is only natural that there would be a lot more bitterness between the two of them than Kotori would likely feel toward them or one of the other girls. That said, I do think that Kotori - and Moe as well - are the most truly gentle souls in the series.

Oh I agree, it's not a fair comparison, especially since in the game, Sakura is the only route where Nemu also "blows up" like she did in the anime. However, Sakura's not the only girl that Nemu ever gets jealous of - that's just part of her personality...while Kotori's a lot more level headed and just nicer, so I doubt she'd react the same way...

As for Sakura, I agree. I think she grew up a lot as well, but she was rather mature to begin with, as funny as that sounds.

The most gentle souls in the series, mm...I'd say that Moe is nicer than Kotori, and Tamaki, Alice, Yoriko and Misaki are at least at the same level.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Spoiler:

You might say that the point is that it wasn't, but considering that DCSS tells us that all the girls feel the same way, I really don't think it'd be accurrate to call Kotori a central part of the story, and I firmly believe that it could've been done without needing to build up her role since Aisha's thoughts could've come (and at times they did, check episode 16) through other means.

Spoiler:

Hehe... well, you're starting to get my point now, inadvertantly. Kotori was the perfect character to teach this lesson, because she is the one who embodies it in her personality. Why wouldn't they use the character who has the most to say on the theme and give her a prominent role? That's exactly what they did. Your argument seems to revolve around the fact that she didn't change in the anime, but changing wasn't what was needed because she already knew the right thing to do. What she had to do was face trials to test her kindness; yes, she had to suffer. Why? Because that's what proves Sakura's point to Aisia - if anyone has to sacrifice to bring happiness, it should be the magician. Even though Kotori's no magician, her kindness is no less magic.

Could they have given Kotori a more minor role in the plot and still have successfully delivered the intended message? Could they have exchanged her with another girl? Possibly, but I don't think it would be as convincing. Kotori is the self-sacrificing girl that makes other happy through her kindness. She's the very image of Aisia's grandmother, without the magic. The other girls are all great, but none of them fit the bill nearly as perfectly as Kotori does. That all the girls love him is incidental, but Kotori's sacrificing love is the theme of the show. That, to me, is what makes her a "main character", and not just "one of the other girls". As usual, your mileage may vary.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler:

Hehe... well, you're starting to get my point now, inadvertantly. Kotori was the perfect character to teach this lesson, because she is the one who embodies it in her personality. Why wouldn't they use the character who has the most to say on the theme and give her a prominent role? That's exactly what they did. Your argument seems to revolve around the fact that she didn't change in the anime, but changing wasn't what was needed because she already knew the right thing to do. What she had to do was face trials to test her kindness; yes, she had to suffer. Why? Because that's what proves Sakura's point to Aisia - if anyone has to sacrifice to bring happiness, it should be the magician. Even though Kotori's no magician, her kindness is no less magic.

Could they have given Kotori a more minor role in the plot and still have successfully delivered the intended message? Could they have exchanged her with another girl? Possibly, but I don't think it would be as convincing. Kotori is the self-sacrificing girl that makes other happy through her kindness. She's the very image of Aisia's grandmother, without the magic. The other girls are all great, but none of them fit the bill nearly as perfectly as Kotori does. That all the girls love him is incidental, but Kotori's sacrificing love is the theme of the show. That, to me, is what makes her a "main character", and not just "one of the other girls". As usual, your mileage may vary.

Spoiler:

I definitely think that we just disagree here. You are right, "your mileage my vary".

My argument doesn't really revolve around that as much as it revolves as everyone else being the same as Kotori when it comes to their feelings for Jyunichi and their actions. They're all self sacrificing in love - at least in second season - except for the one who is actually with Jyunichi, and Aisha.

Kotori wasn't really the only one sacrificing her feelings and suffering. All the girls knew that the right thing to do was to step back and let them be together except Aisha, and they all loved him. We had no character development for anyone really, except for Aisha (which isn't a bad thing or anything I'm complaining about - it's just a fact).

So basically I agree with you in everything you said except in one thing. Put Moe, Alice, Tamaki, even the brasher Mako, or whoever you want in your sentences instead of Kotori and it works perfectly, since they all were doing the same thing, at least till Aisha screwed everything up. That's why I feel that "the girls" is a central part of the story much, much more than "Kotori" ever was, even if "Kotori" was the one of "the girls" who got the most screentime (and although you could probably call that irrelevant, her screentime was still less than the people I consider part of the main cast).

And don't think I'm being nitpicky, but this also goes against your previous statment that Kotori herself has a beginning and an ending. If anything, Aisha watches and ends up understanding a situation that is the same from beginning to end, since nothing really changed till she screwed things up, and nothing changed after everything was fixed either. Except for the marriage, I suppose; and unless they were hinting that the girls got over Jyunichi when they were pursuing their own dreams and minding their own business, but that's more speculation than anything, and both ways it isn't really relevant to the message that they actually tell us since that'd be more implied and post-DCSS than anything...

To each his own, I suppose.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Spoiler:

So basically I agree with you in everything you said except in one thing. Put Moe, Alice, Tamaki, Mako, or whoever you want in your sentences instead of Kotori and it works perfectly, since they all were doing the same thing, at least till Aisha screwed everything up. That's why I feel that "the girls" is a central part of the story much, much more than "Kotori" ever was, even if "Kotori" was the one of "the girls" who got the most screentime (and although you could probably call that irrelevant, her screentime was still less than the people I consider part of the main cast).

Spoiler:

Nope, well, I definitely disagree. I really don't think Kotori's role is interchangeable, nor do I find much/any evidence from the show that the other girls truly had much to sacrifice. They were onlookers, but Kotori wasn't. The other girls knew all along that Kotori was "the girl to beat" (if not for Nemu) and none of them ever really made any serious moves. Kotori did, and the other girls recognized that, even if Junichi didn't (or more like, closed his mind to it, as he had done with Nemu's feelings in season one). It's not just that Kotori was the most important of the other girls, but her role actually influenced the theme and plot progression a great deal. I can't help but think that looping her in with "the others" does a great disservice to her role in the show.

I thought her ending resolved her character development completely - after being rejected clearly (Junichi ran away from her under the cherry tree to find Nemu), she reunited Nemu and Junichi together even while the tree's spell was in full effect, while all the other girls watched. Although it's not shown, the assumption is that Kotori's the one who convinced Nemu to give Junichi the letter, or at least supported her in doing so (while that's happening, we see Suginami talking to Junichi - the other side of the coin). That was the first time in the show (that I recall) that she actually acted to support Nemu, as opposed to just pulling back and retreating into her shell and regretting the chances she'd lost. Could it have happened without her? Possibly, but it didn't. She was the only one of the girls who actually had to do something to resolve her plot, and she did.

So, I don't know. I really didn't see Kotori as just "one of the others". Obviously, the story revolves around Aisia's dilemma, but Kotori's story was at least as important to me in terms of the way they delivered the message/theme. If you cut that part of the plot out and dismiss it as "replaceable", then the show doesn't have nearly as much weight to stand on. At least, in my opinion. Maybe "main character" is a magic word that has different definitions to different people and, as a result, we're just arguing semantics, but I definitely found her prominent featuring in the promo art to be justified in the show. But that's just me - you clearly wanted something else out of the plot, and that's another story.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But that's just me - you clearly wanted something else out of the plot, and that's another story.

Oh I did, but as you said, that's another story.

I disagree with your analysis on Kotori's role, though I can see where you're coming from. However, I think our argument would be endless, so I think that we should just agree to disagree here. Everyone has their own views, after all.