2011-01-04, 15:22 | Link #11062 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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^^Xellos is right. The 'discovery' is nothing right now, until further study. Even then, unless we can get more remains than a tooth it likely won't have any impact on the modern Out of Africa theory. The idea that it belongs to modern humans is also bizarre because if it does belong to modern humans then that means humans coexisted with Homo Erectus for hundreds of thousands of years. Why is that so strange? The exact same diet, likely similar style of hunting... Erectus would be outcompeted and driven to extinction a lot more quickly than they were if humans sprung up that early.
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2011-01-04, 15:25 | Link #11063 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Though one does wonder just what our ancestors were doing for the at least 330,000 years prior to Toba. I mean we went from hunter gatherers on the verge of extinction with stone tools to approaching 7 billion people on the cusp of colonizing the solar system in the 70,000 years since. Were our ancestors living a hunter gatherer lifestyle for nearly 5 times as long prior to that? If so, what sparked the shift to agriculture and technological civilization? Was it just that no one thought of it in all that time and it was just happenstance that it was discovered when it was? Was there a shift in cultural imperatives that lead to the discovery of agriculture? It makes one realize just how little we know about our ancestors.
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2011-01-04, 15:46 | Link #11064 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Or was it a cycle of trial and error mixed with natural disaster. It is possible the species had advanced somewhat prior to nature slapping them back down to the stone age. All it would take it the deaths of enough people who would know how things worked and a few years of winter with poor planting seasons to destroy agricultural society.
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2011-01-04, 16:12 | Link #11065 | |
Aria Company
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2011-01-04, 16:38 | Link #11066 | |
廉頗
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Age: 34
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Though we can't forget agriculture wasn't discovered by everyone; some cultures like the Australian Aboriginals never used it for instance. |
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2011-01-04, 16:51 | Link #11067 | |
Aria Company
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2011-01-04, 17:38 | Link #11068 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Well the idea is that abstract thought may have always existed, as genetically there was no sudden change, but that there was a breakthrough in language that allowed for groups to better share their own abstract ideas with one another more easily. I don't know if its true, though it sounds plausible to me. And yes originally agriculture was a supplement to hunting until the domestication of food-providing animals which allowed stable society without daily hunting.
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2011-01-04, 18:01 | Link #11069 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
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2011-01-04, 18:22 | Link #11070 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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It's a mystery, but the similar hunting range of wolves and humans may have contributed to them coming into contact quite often. Competing for scarce resources, the wolves may have scavenged from human settlements for thousands of years, making wolves that follow humans better adept in a Darwinian sense. The humans may have revered the wolf religiously as is common in many human cultures, and welcomed the followers. From there, the more useful wolves (ones that barked for danger, helped hunt, etc) would simply be better treated by the humans, allowed to reproduce more, and the species would evolve from there. Though that's quite a lot of speculation, since we have no way of verifying any of this.
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2011-01-04, 18:50 | Link #11071 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2011-01-04, 19:29 | Link #11072 |
Hmm...
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Looking for his book...
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I think the domestication of wolfs is most likely the result of adoption and self-domestication. Early wolves interaction with man would have been either as competitor or, most likely, as scavengers. Interfering with recent hunting kills and scavenging outside human encampments would in all likely hood been the origin of interaction between the two.
Those that scavenged outside human encampments would, over time, become used to humans and to some limited extent socialize with them. The best representation of this, even in modern times, is semi-feral stray dogs. They are used to humans and will on occasion interact with them but prefer to keep their distance. It is no major stretch of imagination to think that some of the early human-wolf interactions began this way. Over time and several generation the scavenging wolves would increase their interactions with humans and naturally go through the process of self-domestication. Of course scavenging wasn't the only place humans and wolves would interact, both needed to hunt. Wolves are incredibly intelligent and would, and still do, on occasion interfere with hunters going so far as stealing recently downed prey. Given the nature of the two, humans being humans and wolves being wolves, a human would have eventually been attacked or injured and reprisals brought down against the wolves (wolves attack a human, humans attack wolves). We still do this today, an animal attacks a human for whatever reason and we put it down to prevent it from happening again. With the wolves, eventually, a mother would be killed and her cubs found and humans being humans would either kill those cubs or decide to raise them. Given the natural prowess of wolves in wolves in hunting and tracking, it is fairly safe to assume someone would think to use them for this purpose. Having several young wolf cubs would be a great opportunity to do this. Raising the cubs one would put down those that were either too aggressive or violent while keeping and breeding those that were subservient and controllable. Over several generations you'd end up with domesticated wolves. |
2011-01-04, 19:52 | Link #11073 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Iran nuclear invitation draws Western skepticism
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...7030X820110104
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2011-01-04, 20:52 | Link #11074 | |
廉頗
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Russian silver fox |
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2011-01-04, 21:16 | Link #11075 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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2011-01-04, 21:39 | Link #11077 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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Problem 1 - actually visualizing and realizing having adult wolves helping them. We are going form competitor to companion this is a huge leap of abstract thinking problem 2 - resources are finite, why waste the resources on raising wolf cubs when you can use those same resources to raise your own kids? how did the ancient human see far enough ahead to see the benefit of raising and taming the cubs? the would have to have a concept of time. Not today, not just tomorrow but a far enough time into the future.
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2011-01-04, 23:23 | Link #11078 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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that's how much americans are given for possessing such photos and videos or even worse... |
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2011-01-05, 01:02 | Link #11079 | |||
Hmm...
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Looking for his book...
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The original intent in the domestication and use of wolves would not have been for companionship but rather as tools in hunting. Companionship, while inevitable in hindsight, would most likely have not been a major concern for people back then, survival would be the primary goal. Odds of an ancient human seeing a wolf as anything other than a hunting tool, and perhaps a source of food, are very slim at best. The actual domestication of the animals would have been aided by the similarities in human and wolf social structures. Early groups of humans were lead by an alpha (male), directly after the alpha would have been their mate followed by the rest of the group with children being cared for and guarded by the group. This is fairly similar to the social structure of wolves and would have aided in integrating the would-be domesticated animals in to group, even today dogs tend to be obedient towards those they perceive as alphas. Quote:
One has to consider the cost of resources needed to raise the wolf pups against the benefits, the increased gains in hunting and gathering. Let's assume a 'pack' of 20 humans has 3 wolf pups, each human requires one resource of food each day and each wolf requires half a resource each day. If on a daily basis the humans are able to gather 22 food resources each day unaided, they have an option of storing the extra food or using it to raise the wolves. The best option would seem to be to store it, but what if the wolves, once raised, had a benefit? With the wolves being excellent hunters, if raised, the 3 wolves could help increase the food gathered each day by 6 food resources (think of it as the difference between getting 2 deer by yourself, or 3 with the aid of the wolves). Subtracting the upkeep of the wolves you have a net benefit of 4.5 food resources. Short term loss, long term benefit. (looking at it, the above sounds terribly like a strategy game) Realizing the benefits of this isn't something that would take centuries either, viable domestication results could be achieved, conceivably, within 8 years (3 generations) of careful breeding. As for the concept of time, they had to have it as they were migratory. While I doubt they had the concept of centuries, let alone a millennium, they undoubtedly understood the concept of time, seasons and years. Quote:
Ever tried to cook meat over a fire? Without the use of metal tools or a grill to keep it out of the fire? Ever tried to light your own fire without a direct flame? Navigate without a GPS or compass? Doesn't seem difficult compared to making a processing unit with more transistors than the human brain and capable of pinpoint accuracy in billions of calculations per second. Everyday things they figured out and did would be beyond the grasp of so many people today that if technology were to up and vanish or stop working, the vast majority of people in developed nations would die of exposure and starvation (third would nations would probably much better). A large part of it is probably what people think of when they imagine humanity's ancestors, lumbering oafs with hulking foreheads and big sticks versus the reality of, most likely, athletic hunting groups armed with knives and spears using cunning and team work to take down prey. Anyway, I missed the beginning of this conversation. why are we discussing this again? |
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2011-01-05, 02:02 | Link #11080 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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