Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Game Players)

[Craxuan]

Spoiler for Reply on the spoiler <3:

Until you realize that Ilya's Berserker got KOed in one round by Gilgamesh, whereas THIS Berserker survived two.

[giorno]

uh, *all* servants can move at supersonic speed

and Craxuan, herakles only went down like that because Ilya was there, and he still managed to break free of enkidu and nearly reach Gil

(and seriously, comparing other servants to gil is kind of pointless anyways. It's like comparing two middleweight boxers by how well they would fare against the heavyweight world champion)

[Crontica]

I'm sorry but this version of berserker is obviously better, not only is he fast sharp and flexible in terms of weapon management, given the right master he knows when to bloody retreat, this type of servant would just be plain devastating in a surprise attack.

[Craxuan]

Spoiler for Reply to the Reply:

Ilya's heart was what Gilgamesh wanted, but do you actually think she was in any way a factor between the two's battle? Gilgamesh, in all his crazy ego, would never stoop so low that he would need a hostage to, as he put it, 'to put down a useless dog'.

In fact Berserker had all the reason to DEFEAT Gilgamesh - to the point that he disobeyed Ilya's direct command, something that has never happened before - because he knew that it was the only way to protect her. He would not have held back AT ALL, and he lost the fight. Using up all his lives. KOed in one round. However sad it might sound, it is the fact. Whereas Fate/Zero's have survived twice against Gilgamesh.

Fate/Zero's Berserker would've lost the battle against Fate/Stay Night's Berserker because Ilya's relies on raw power to defeat his enemies, whereas Fate/Zero's Berserker special quality allows him to manipulate any weapon he has in hand, thus making him a direct counter against Gilgamesh's 'throw shit at people' technique.

I had meant my reply up there as a joke and NOT a comparison on which Berserker is better, but if you insist on arguing things - which you have not been able to put precisely why one is better than the other, how we cannot compare the middleweights with the heavyweights properly, whereas I HAVE - then I'll give you a bloody argument.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Spoiler for Reply on the spoiler <3:

Until you realize that Ilya's Berserker got KOed in one round by Gilgamesh, whereas THIS Berserker survived two.

Spoiler for Somewhat FSN related, but barely, mostly Zero:

This Berserker is also anti-Gilgamesh. That's his sole purpose. Ilya's Berserker was just the Hulk.

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Spoiler for Reply to the Reply:

In fact Berserker had all the reason to DEFEAT Gilgamesh - to the point that he disobeyed Ilya's direct command, something that has never happened before - because he knew that it was the only way to protect her. He would not have held back AT ALL, and he lost the fight. Using up all his lives. KOed in one round. However sad it might sound, it is the fact. Whereas Fate/Zero's have survived twice against Gilgamesh.

Spoiler for Reply to spoilers:

Even if Gil wasn't holding a knife to her throat, she was still essentially his hostage. Berserker couldn't dodge because the attacks would hit Ilya if he did. He had to absorb or deflect everything shot at him.

Either way, this conversation should be taken to the appropriate thread. Which is not this one.

[giorno]

@Craxuan see GDB's post for how Ilya held down herakles in UBW


my reply was to answer your post in which it seemed to me that you *were* making a comparison between the two using the respective battles against gilgamesh as proof. And the gist of it was that just because zerozerker has an NP that is well suited to counter Gil doesn't mean he's stronger than hreakles, and that at the end of the day, KOH is only effective because Gil is playing around and not taking him seriously at all

just consider that out of all the servants between zero and FSN, only Gil, saber and Alex have any decent chance of winning against herakles, whereas zerozerker, while still pretty high tier, is a lot more defeatable. I mean, you summon herakles in a HGW that doesn't involve Gil or saber, and you're almost certainly going to win. With zerozerker, one bad encounter with a medusa pulling all the stops and unleashing her mystic eyes, or attacking medea inside ryuudo, and your war might be over...

[Vicious108]

Now was that an episode (16) rich in FSN parallels and foreshadowing or what?

- Lancer being forced to commit suicide by his Master.
- That very same Lancer prophesying a hellish ending to the 4th Holy Grail War.
- Kiritsugu, a man who's become cruelly pragmatic with time, despite having initially wanted to be a virtuous hero, and his desire to expose the hypocrisy of the foolish honorable ones. It resembles oh so much the dichotomy Archer and Shirou had going in FSN.

FZ continues to prove what a top notch prequel it is.

And from the preview for next week, anyone who's read FSN should know what's coming. Time for the alliance of the magnificent bastards to begin. Can't wait.

[DragoZERO]

16 was excellent. Kiritisugu is EMIYA but with some self-control.

Oh, I don't think it's foreshadowing if it happened already. Not sure what it classifies as though.

And next episode... is going to be rough. I am surprised they threw Rin's line at the end of the preview. But I suppose the foreshadowing from Kirei & Gil's conversation and the episode title was enough to figure out what is to come.

And Iri sure can't take all of these Servants like Iri or Sakura did. I wonder if it's because of her age.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

16 was excellent. Kiritisugu is EMIYA but with some self-control.

Oh, I don't think it's foreshadowing if it happened already. Not sure what it classifies as though.

But it hasn't happened, not chronologically anyway, so it definitely qualifies. It's just that people who've read FSN are already able to tell whereas those who haven't will only realize it later on.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

And next episode... is going to be rough. I am surprised they threw Rin's line at the end of the preview. But I suppose the foreshadowing from Kirei & Gil's conversation and the episode title was enough to figure out what is to come.

I initially thought Tokiomi would die in episode 10 and that that was the reason why they'd brought Rin to Fuyuki, but he dodged the bullet there, so I'm surprised to see Rin might still be around for her father's demise after all. Either way, the man's lost his accomplice in his rigging of the system in this episode and is bound to be betrayed by his very own apprentice in the next one, Tokiomi sure is in for a shit day. Much like Kayneth, these proud archetypal magus types always seem to go through some rude awakenings in the Fateverse.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

But it hasn't happened, not chronologically anyway, so it definitely qualifies. It's just that people who've read FSN are already able to tell whereas those who haven't will only realize it later on.

I suppose it is foreshadowing.. but we know it happened so I can't see it being the same. Meh, I'll Google it later.

I initially thought Tokiomi would die in episode 10 and that that was the reason why they'd brought Rin to Fuyuki, but he dodged the bullet there, so I'm surprised to see Rin might still be around for her father's demise after all. Either way, the man's lost his accomplice in his rigging of the system in this episode and is bound to be betrayed by his very own apprentice in the next one, Tokiomi sure is in for a shit day. Much like Kayneth, these proud archetypal magus types always seem to go through some rude awakenings in the Fateverse.

We know Tokiomi has to see Rin before he dies to give her that big stone which she uses to save Shirou.

[DragoZERO]

Waahhh!! Latest episode connected back to the game a lot.

My memory is a little fuzzy but, was it all accurate?

I had thought Tokiomi had given Rin that jewel, but now my memory is jogged and I do remember it was a book. Did the game include what he said to her?

And did Kirei say he killed Tokiomi in game? I remember Haak mentioning something along those lines.

[GDB]

I think he says he gave Rin the dagger that he killed her father with when Shirou kills him with it. As for Tokiomi's words, they sound right, but I can't recall. And the jewel that Rin uses was found in a vault or something.

[Vicious108]

I don't remember the exact situation with the jewel, but I believe it was something akin to Rin following her father's will's instructions and finding it on her own.

As for Kirei telling Rin about killing Tokiomi, he did indeed do so. Surprisingly, in the route where we was least relevant, Unlimited Blade Works, in the same scene where he forced Lancer to commit suicide.

And this episode made me even sadder that FSN is so short on Kotomine + Gilgamesh scenes, considering what a thing of beauty their developing partnership has been in FZ. They were never even shown to express concern over the other's death in any of the routes, and they died in all of them! Oh well, that's part of prequel curse, I suppose.

And speaking of Rin knowing or not about the circumstances of her father's death in FSN, this reminds me that her mother Aoi is never even mentioned in that one IIRC, which means she's bound to die sooner or later in FZ. I'm very curious to see how that will unfold. I doubt Rin will be involved, otherwise we probably would've heard something about it in FSN, so I can only imagine it'll happen in some sort of scheme from Kirei to inflict further suffering upon Kariya, whose feelings for her are quite obvious. And as boring as Aoi herself is, I wonder just how much worse Kariya would get if he were to witness her death at this point. We'll see how it goes, I guess...

[mAc Chaos]

I bet you guys think that about the jewel because of the FSN anime depicting it that way. That's how I imagined it too.

As for them grieving each other, neither seemed to be the type to get all worked up over someone else. Gilgamesh just cares about himself; Kotomine is just entertainment to him in the end. And Kotomine can't care about anyone to begin with.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by GDB

I think he says he gave Rin the dagger that he killed her father with when Shirou kills him with it. As for Tokiomi's words, they sound right, but I can't recall. And the jewel that Rin uses was found in a vault or something.

I think I remember her saying she found it. It's been almost two years since I played, lol.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

I don't remember the exact situation with the jewel, but I believe it was something akin to Rin following her father's will's instructions and finding it on her own.

As for Kirei telling Rin about killing Tokiomi, he did indeed do so. Surprisingly, in the route where we was least relevant, Unlimited Blade Works, in the same scene where he forced Lancer to commit suicide.

That's when I faintly remember him telling her. That scene was kind of overshadowed by Lancer so it slipped my mind, haha.

And speaking of Rin knowing or not about the circumstances of her father's death in FSN, this reminds me that her mother Aoi is never even mentioned in that one IIRC, which means she's bound to die sooner or later in FZ. I'm very curious to see how that will unfold. I doubt Rin will be involved, otherwise we probably would've heard something about it in FSN, so I can only imagine it'll happen in some sort of scheme from Kirei to inflict further suffering upon Kariya, whose feelings for her are quite obvious. And as boring as Aoi herself is, I wonder just how much worse Kariya would get if he were to witness her death at this point. We'll see how it goes, I guess...

Shit.. I didn't think that much into Aoi. I suppose that is possible. Kirei will operate outside of the rules now. Either way, the shit will continue to hit the fan exponentially.

[Archer]

Rin never gets the stone from Tokiomi; she finds it the day prior to Archer's summoning after she deciphers Tokiomi's will.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Waahhh!! Latest episode connected back to the game a lot.

My memory is a little fuzzy but, was it all accurate?

I had thought Tokiomi had given Rin that jewel, but now my memory is jogged and I do remember it was a book. Did the game include what he said to her?

Yeah, Fate/Zero 17 really did make me appreciate some events more now in Fate/Stay Night, especially the Fate route and the way Kotomine ended up being defeated there.

As for the pendent, I actually though ufotable cut the scene for time at first, since I did also think that Tokiomi gave Rin the pendent on their last meeting (from what I recalled from the UBW movie during Shioru and Rin's ''bonding'' scene) and looking back on it, I think even the Deen anime showed that Tokiomi gave that pendent ... except looking back at the game, that's not what happened at all.

Rin did find the pendent on her, yes, but there was a specif reason why Tokiomi wanted her to find it on her own, to teach her a lesson

Spoiler for meeting with Ayako:

"I guess the clocks at my house were an hour fast. All of them.
Not just my alarm clock, but the wall clocks as well."
Really, just what's going on here?
Did Father arrange for all the clocks to go mad when the pendant was removed from the basement?

Which of course lead to ...

Spoiler for realizing her mistake:

"……"
But there's one thing more important than that.
The wall clock is still ticking away time, having escaped destruction.
…That reminds me.
Yes, that's right. Come to think of it, every clock in my house was an hour early today for some reason.
In other words, it's one in the morning right now.
There's actually one more hour until my magical energy is at its peak.

"…I did it again."
I can do most things just like everyone else, but I have one hereditary curse.
That is, to make the biggest mistakes at the most important times…

summoning the wrong Servant.

It's sort of an interesting detail about Tokiomi, now that we got to learn just how wrapped his views on the world really are. He was, to the very end, a magus, and even when it could have screwed over his daughter in a way he couldn't have guessed, he still made this test that would lead to her confusing the time, which of course jeopardized her shot at winning the war by not getting the servant she was gunning for.

Even in death, Tokiomi never escaped that tunnel vision of his.

I wonder why the Deen staff changed that ...

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Yeah, Fate/Zero 17 really did make me appreciate some events more now in Fate/Stay Night, especially the Fate route and the way Kotomine ended up being defeated there.

As for the pendent, I actually though ufotable cut the scene for time at first, since I did also think that Tokiomi gave Rin the pendent on their last meeting (from what I recalled from the UBW movie during Shioru and Rin's ''bonding'' scene) and looking back on it, I think even the Deen anime showed that Tokiomi gave that pendent ... except looking back at the game, that's not what happened at all.

Rin did find the pendent on her, yes, but there was a specif reason why Tokiomi wanted her to find it on her own, to teach her a lesson

Spoiler for meeting with Ayako:

"I guess the clocks at my house were an hour fast. All of them.
Not just my alarm clock, but the wall clocks as well."
Really, just what's going on here?
Did Father arrange for all the clocks to go mad when the pendant was removed from the basement?

Which of course lead to ...

Spoiler for realizing her mistake:

"……"
But there's one thing more important than that.
The wall clock is still ticking away time, having escaped destruction.
…That reminds me.
Yes, that's right. Come to think of it, every clock in my house was an hour early today for some reason.
In other words, it's one in the morning right now.
There's actually one more hour until my magical energy is at its peak.

"…I did it again."
I can do most things just like everyone else, but I have one hereditary curse.
That is, to make the biggest mistakes at the most important times…

summoning the wrong Servant.

It's sort of an interesting detail about Tokiomi, now that we got to learn just how wrapped his views on the world really are. He was, to the very end, a magus, and even when it could have screwed over his daughter in a way he couldn't have guessed, he still made this test that would lead to her confusing the time, which of course jeopardized her shot at winning the war by not getting the servant she was gunning for.

Even in death, Tokiomi never escaped that tunnel vision of his.

I wonder why the Deen staff changed that ...

Even if she had tried to summon a Servant when her magical energy was at its peak she would still have gotten Archer. This is because unknown to her the pedant was working as her catalyst

Spoiler:

and EMIYA was connected to it.

[GDB]

This is the thread for Game Players. No need for a spoiler box for something like that, especially since it's also been animated.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

he still made this test that would lead to her confusing the time, which of course jeopardized her shot at winning the war by not getting the servant she was gunning for.

Though unbeknownst to either of them, it didn't matter when she summoned her Servant (except perhaps as far as stats go). Archer was her's 100% guaranteed since he had a relic of her's (as explained in UBW, the relic factor works both ways, it's not just if the Master has a relic of the Servant).

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Yeah, Fate/Zero 17 really did make me appreciate some events more now in Fate/Stay Night, especially the Fate route and the way Kotomine ended up being defeated there.

As for the pendent, I actually though ufotable cut the scene for time at first, since I did also think that Tokiomi gave Rin the pendent on their last meeting (from what I recalled from the UBW movie during Shioru and Rin's ''bonding'' scene) and looking back on it, I think even the Deen anime showed that Tokiomi gave that pendent ... except looking back at the game, that's not what happened at all.

Rin did find the pendent on her, yes, but there was a specif reason why Tokiomi wanted her to find it on her own, to teach her a lesson

Spoiler for meeting with Ayako:

"I guess the clocks at my house were an hour fast. All of them.
Not just my alarm clock, but the wall clocks as well."
Really, just what's going on here?
Did Father arrange for all the clocks to go mad when the pendant was removed from the basement?

Which of course lead to ...

Spoiler for realizing her mistake:

"……"
But there's one thing more important than that.
The wall clock is still ticking away time, having escaped destruction.
…That reminds me.
Yes, that's right. Come to think of it, every clock in my house was an hour early today for some reason.
In other words, it's one in the morning right now.
There's actually one more hour until my magical energy is at its peak.

"…I did it again."
I can do most things just like everyone else, but I have one hereditary curse.
That is, to make the biggest mistakes at the most important times…

summoning the wrong Servant.

It's sort of an interesting detail about Tokiomi, now that we got to learn just how wrapped his views on the world really are. He was, to the very end, a magus, and even when it could have screwed over his daughter in a way he couldn't have guessed, he still made this test that would lead to her confusing the time, which of course jeopardized her shot at winning the war by not getting the servant she was gunning for.

Even in death, Tokiomi never escaped that tunnel vision of his.

I wonder why the Deen staff changed that ...

Tokiomi didn't jeopardize anything. The next Grail War was supposed to happen in 60 years, not 10. I think that was just coincidence.

Thanks for posting the excerpts.