Code Geass R2 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Missing Var's point again. There's absolutely no guarantee he'll get her to experience a recent memory about Lelouch using the refrain. If he were to actually succeed, it would be far too convenient for him. Given the context, if he were to succeed I'd stop watching because I can't suspend my disbelief that far. It's a hallucinogenic drug, the effects can be unpredictable. If his predicted and desired effect occurs, I'd eat my hat.

Key point, Suzaku is a moron because he's using an unreliable drug for his interrogation method. He should use a proper truth serum.

Surley you jest...If you've watched a million people in Zero costumes, a complete reboot of S1, Lulu's desert bedroom, Orange-kun's endless reincarnations, you'll keep watching after Kallen has a Lulu memory based on refrain...Puh-leeze, as if I'm suggesting anything I've said is a guarantee, I've said the contrary this entire debate while my opposition has just dismissed every possibility based on the Suzaku's an idiot factor..Please keep up...

[Var]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Surley you jest...If you've watched a million people in Zero costumes, a complete reboot of S1, Lulu's desert bedroom, Orange-kun's endless reincarnations, you'll keep watching after Kallen has a Lulu memory based on refrain...Puh-leeze, as if I'm suggesting anything I've said is a guarantee, I've said the contrary this entire debate while my opposition has just dismissed every possibility based on the Suzaku's an idiot factor..Please keep up...

I'll start by saying that I don't agree with your judgment on what is ridiculously and what is believable.

Second, I'm not dismissing the possibilities. Get this through your thick skull, I never said nothing could/would happen, I said that the probability of getting what he wants is as likely as a high energy neutrino reacting with a water molecule. Or a simpler example, me catching fire while submerged in water.

All I have said is that, if Suzaku is intending to use this to get information, then he is a colossal moron because asking her nicely is about as useful, if not more so.

[Diedrupo]

Originally Posted by Var

All I have said is that, if Suzaku is intending to use this to get information, then he is a colossal moron because asking her nicely is about as useful, if not more so.

Except of course, y'know, he's already tried asking her. I don't question the (lack of) validity of using refrain, but it is pretty much a last resort after trying other interrogation methods.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Surley you jest...If you've watched a million people in Zero costumes, [...], Lulu's desert bedroom, Orange-kun's endless reincarnations,

Code Geass is known for ridiculous situations, but...

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

you'll keep watching after Kallen has a Lulu memory based on refrain...

... the idea that a drug, which from we've established has 0.001% chance of giving Suzaku what he wants, actually does give him what he wants then this takes the cake. This is not TTGL, I don't hear any "Do the Impossible, See the Invisible RAW RAW Fight the Power!" in the background. I will not tolerate an event with such minuscule chance of happening as Suzaku intends actually happening on his first try.

[orangejuicetang]

Why do you believe that the chance that it actually happening is so miniscule? We know that it makes a person remember happier times. That's pretty much all we know about the drug's main effect.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

Except of course, y'know, he's already tried asking her. I don't question the (lack of) validity of using refrain, but it is pretty much a last resort after trying other interrogation methods.

I agree with you

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Why do you believe that the chance that it actually happening is so miniscule? We know that it makes a person remember happier times. That's pretty much all we know about the drug's main effect.

Because there's so many happy times in her childhood, they'd be more likely to pop up than a recent memory about Lelouch.

[orangejuicetang]

Does she remember them though? It's far easier to remember more recent happy memories than happy memories from a few years ago. Also, we don't know if refrain makes you just remember a single happy memory, or sort of jumps between memories. Like, she could be reliving one happy memory for five minutes, and then jump to another happy memory.

[Var]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Does she remember them though? It's far easier to remember more recent happy memories than happy memories from a few years ago. Also, we don't know if refrain makes you just remember a single happy memory, or sort of jumps between memories. Like, she could be reliving one happy memory for five minutes, and then jump to another happy memory.

It's not about her remembering them, the drug makes you remember it forcefully. It taps your brain's backstorage and revitalizes things that have become distant after thoughts. Kallen's mother remembered her children when they were very young, that's well over ten years in the past. If she can remember it, Kallen can remember it.

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

Except of course, y'know, he's already tried asking her. I don't question the (lack of) validity of using refrain, but it is pretty much a last resort after trying other interrogation methods.

Or he could use his brain and make use of Nunally. It is far more likely for something to slip out if Kallen is allowed to talk with Nunally about Lelouch and everything, than it is to come from drugging her. It would also be 100% more reliable.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Var

Or he could use his brain and make use of Nunally.

People would say: "OMG, That B****** is using Nunnaly

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Does she remember them though? It's far easier to remember more recent happy memories than happy memories from a few years ago. Also, we don't know if refrain makes you just remember a single happy memory, or sort of jumps between memories. Like, she could be reliving one happy memory for five minutes, and then jump to another happy memory.

They've clearly tested out refrain themselves and come to the complete conclusion that the writers wouldn't touch your more than acceptable conclusion...

Originally Posted by Var

I'll start by saying that I don't agree with your judgment on what is ridiculously and what is believable.

Second, I'm not dismissing the possibilities. Get this through your thick skull, I never said nothing could/would happen, I said that the probability of getting what he wants is as likely as a high energy neutrino reacting with a water molecule. Or a simpler example, me catching fire while submerged in water.

You have dismissed almost every possibility that Suzaku may be using his attempt at refraining as a specific goal based essentially on your lustful hate//disgust with the character...You have called almost any possibility of a scene being crafted where he gets his info using this method as downright abonimable...The context of this show betrays all your thougts on this IMO...Even if you don't think a million people changing into Zero costumes in .5 seconds to NBA pregame smoke machines or Orange-kun's attempt at becoming the next Jason Voorhies isn't ridiculous, the probablity of refrain being somehow used on Kallen with a result consistent with CG's pension for dramatic effect is so easily plausible (and that's ignoring your previous objection to thinking you totally know everything about refrain, nevermind what Suzaku is suggesting)...But now it's just the probablity ...

We are at an empasse it seems and that's fine, lol I won't back down...

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Because there's so many happy times in her childhood, they'd be more likely to pop up than a recent memory about Lelouch.

LOL, boy I'm starting to wonder if refrain is really on the blackmarket hitting college campses or something, because man you guys know so much about a drug that hasn't been examined with much depth for this entire show...I missed the episode about refraining someone in an interrogation room and the plausibility of them potentially saying things...Even if it's a slim chance that she'll have a Lulu memory, a slim chance might just be enuff verses 0% chance, and given this show's landscape how could you not even consider that the writers could do this?? It's like you guys think you're watching Aristotle or something rather than a show that preys on hyper-dramatic devices for plot convienences...

I'm done...We shall see...

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Airi

People would say: "OMG, That B****** is using Nunnaly

I thought he was a genius for using Nunally to get Lelouch to drop his act earlier in R2. Because it was likely it was going to work as Nunally is the most important person to Lelouch and the shock would likely get him to reveal something.

The problem with refrain that has been mentioned to death is not that Suzaku is going to use it on Kallen. But that he thinks that it is some sort of truth serum that will get him what he wants and is justifying it as "limiting casualties".

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by Var

Sorry for the delay, wing, I went to sleep.


Your stupidity is showing.
There is no 'in her favor' in having her mom be a vegetable due to drugs and in prison for twenty odd years. That's simply a better than worse, bad end. She's lost her mother for twenty years no matter how you look at it.
You don't count friends she's lost because others have lost them too? Idiotic.
Oh good, you made an actual point. Thought I was wasting my time.
Let's see, she's lost her mother, her brother, her father, her heritage, her friends, her country, and she's been removed from the man she loves and with no guarantee of living to see him again. Seems... like she's lost quite a bit, time doesn't matter because she's clearly not just up and forgotten about her brother. She lost him and she knows.



Your logic... which is devoid of logic... baffles me.

Ummm.... Was her mom turned into vegetable?
Sorry, must go watch this episode again.


And my logic is not devoid of logic.

[DN24]

Or he could use his brain and make use of Nunally. It is far more likely for something to slip out if Kallen is allowed to talk with Nunally about Lelouch and everything, than it is to come from drugging her. It would also be 100% more reliable.

And he'd have Kallen told Nunnally that her brother is actually Zero-who murdered 2 of her siblings? Suzaku don't want Nunnally to know LL=Zero so that she'd never be hurt

I thought he was a genius for using Nunally to get Lelouch to drop his act earlier in R2. Because it was likely it was going to work as Nunally is the most important person to Lelouch and the shock would likely get him to reveal something.

But he knows LL won't tell her he is that masked-terrorist who commit mass-murder..

But that he thinks that it is some sort of truth serum that will get him what he wants and is justifying it as "limiting casualties".

refrain's a drug and every addicting drugs have the potential to be a truth serum, and I don't even think using it just once can be very damaging,Ougi was thinking about using it on Villeta to know who Zero is and he didn't think about how it would damaged her but only how he would deal with that information..

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by DN24

But he knows LL won't tell her he is that masked-terrorist who commit mass-murder..

refrain's a drug and every addicting drugs have the potential to be a truth serum, and I don't even think using it just once can be very damaging,Ougi was thinking about using it on Villeta to know who Zero is and he didn't think about how it would damaged her but only how he would deal with that information..

No but do you not remember that Lelouch was geassed into forgetting Nunally? He knows that if Lelouch regained his memory then he would not lie directly to Nunally like that atleast without his facade cracking. Notice that Suzaku was watching Lelouch's reactions during his talk with Nunally.

And it has been pointed out over and over that while the chance is not zero, it is far from reliable compared to other drugs or even alcohol. Refrain drags up old memories and allows the user to experience them again, possibly with their own fantasies and delusions mixed in. When under the influence of the drug the person is not even cognitive of his own surroundings and was shown to not even respond to gunfire or being swing in the hand of a Knightmare Frame. The chances of her experiencing a recent memory of Zero and it not being contaminated by her own fantasies are just too small to be a viable truth drug.

And in Ougi's case, Villeta lost her memories or rather her brain could not access it. He was hoping that refrain would "kick start" her brain into unlocking her memories. Kallen's case is that she is not suffering from amnesia but that she won't talk.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Airi

People would say: "OMG, That B****** is using Nunnaly

Yes. The clever bastard. As it is, he's just an idiot. Even if under the influence, she say "Oh, Zero, you're Lelouch!" it actually won't prove anything, let alone that the present Zero is Lelouch. So why bother?

Of course, I wouldn't put him past him not to care. As long as he has some scrap of information he can delude himself into thinking is confirmation of his hunch, it may be enough for him.

[DN24]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

No but do you not remember that Lelouch was geassed into forgetting Nunally? He knows that if Lelouch regained his memory then he would not lie directly to Nunally like that atleast without his facade cracking. Notice that Suzaku was watching Lelouch's reactions during his talk with Nunally.

And it has been pointed out over and over that while the chance is not zero, it is far from reliable compared to other drugs or even alcohol. Refrain drags up old memories and allows the user to experience them again, possibly with their own fantasies and delusions mixed in. When under the influence of the drug the person is not even cognitive of his own surroundings and was shown to not even respond to gunfire or being swing in the hand of a Knightmare Frame. The chances of her experiencing a recent memory of Zero and it not being contaminated by her own fantasies are just too small to be a viable truth drug.

And in Ougi's case, Villeta lost her memories or rather her brain could not access it. He was hoping that refrain would "kick start" her brain into unlocking her memories. Kallen's case is that she is not suffering from amnesia but that she won't talk.

There's still some chance in it at least,so it's not completely pointless.And I bring Ougi and Villeta because I think the drug won't be very damaging to Kallen,I mean Ougi is a too good guy to use it on his girlfriend if It would leave her in pain or turn her into an addict

[Var]

Originally Posted by DN24

There's still some chance in it at least,so it's not completely pointless.And I bring Ougi and Villeta because I think the drug won't be very damaging to Kallen,I mean Ougi is a too good guy to use it on his girlfriend if It would leave her in pain or turn her into an addict

Its psychological damage, not physical.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by DN24

There's still some chance in it at least,so it's not completely pointless.And I bring Ougi and Villeta because I think the drug won't be very damaging to Kallen,I mean Ougi is a too good guy to use it on his girlfriend if It would leave her in pain or turn her into an addict

But as has been stated there are other ways that would be more effective compared to refrain. Not completely pointless does not equate to a good enough chance to warrant the justification of "preventing more casualties". Face it, the main reason Suzaku brought out refrain is because he is taking his anger on Zero/Lelouch out on the closest target he can and trying to justify doing so.

And if you noticed that Ougi did not use it in her because of the risks involved with the drug.

[Aquaman OS]

Using Nunnally would also take too long, and the clock is ticking for Suzaku.