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Old 2008-01-01, 00:23   Link #261
Vexx
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Well now, that's just a bit stupid on the part of several folks ... though it sounds like yet someone else who didn't check out the laws where he was moving to.... or something. (reads article)

Wow... update: he was just caught in a bit of a mess there because what was natural and customary in Pakistan isn't in Korea. Korea's law appears stricter than most for no apparently good reason.
yeah, it might be a good idea to synchronize some of these laws ... but I have no idea how that might happen without tipping over a lot of sacred cows to many people.
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Old 2008-01-01, 02:49   Link #262
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Did someone just mention School Days and incest in the same sentence? Allow me to present this:



Discuss it all you want, but try not to derail the thread too much.
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Old 2008-01-01, 03:13   Link #263
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I think most of the stigma placed around incest is mostly because western culture has seen it in extreme cases, such as royalty or within small, secluded villages where the effects of imbreeding are more noticable. It was forced into practice so that there would be new blood getting entered into those groups to prevent it from happening.

There might have also been an economic aspect to it. In some cases, marriage within the family was the best solution since you didn't need to give land and wealth to anyone outside the family, or have any issues of lineage once the new couple produced an offspring. It may have even helped solidify bonds between family members since marriage was afterall primarily a partnership between two sets of parents. Condemning inter-family marriage might have been done primarily so that families couldn't just keep their property amongst their own children, but would have to trade with others. This meant that wealthy families would have to find other wealthy families to arrange marriages with or else have to share their wealth with those of lower families. All it would take is someone to convince the wealthy families that it is in their best interest to take in new stock using imbreeding among animals as an example. Even wealthy people don't want idiot children.
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Old 2008-01-01, 04:38   Link #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32 View Post
Did someone just mention School Days and incest in the same sentence? Allow me to present this:



Discuss it all you want, but try not to derail the thread too much.
All I can say about that is: I'm glad I didn't play the game.
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Old 2008-01-01, 08:42   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Hey, gays are saying it's OK to have sex with the same sex and argue that there is no "natural disgust" beside the christian values, so guess you could say the same applies here. Who are you to oppress nice sibling love? And if you do, shouldn't you also set gays to the same line?
There is quite a large difference between finding something not to your liking and actively oppressing it.

For example, I am not thrilled by the idea of incest as I have a twin and to me the thought is distasteful. Yet I don't care how other people operate in their personal lives where either party is not being coerced/abused/taken advantage of (as a lot of cases of true incest are).

IMHO I think the reason that incest (or implied incest) features in anime is due to its taboo status. Anime to me has always been a fairly liberal medium in terms of issues raised (however storylines with said issues are another kettle of fish altogether). I've always seen it as a moderately boundary pushing medium in terms of social issues.
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Old 2008-01-01, 11:36   Link #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32 View Post
Did someone just mention School Days and incest in the same sentence? Allow me to present this:



Discuss it all you want, but try not to derail the thread too much.
Thankyou! I've been looking all over for that picture

Anyway I personally don't see how some can approve of "incest" only if the pair aren't directly blood related ie brother and sister. You either approve it or not, being blood related or not doesn't really change the fact that it happens. Why would anyone who approves of cousin relationship but not direct ones? They are basically the same with with a family member. Throwing in a nonblood related sibling - ie a family member being adopted who calls you onii chan doesn't change the fact that it isn't incest if they decide to have a relationship so I think that it is weird that people would say that is more acceptable than blood related relationships. You either approve or not imo. I personally wouldn't stick my nose in other people's business unless there is something wrong At the end of the day love is love.
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Old 2008-01-01, 11:58   Link #267
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Eh, two human beings love each other, let 'em do whatever they want. What the hell's wrong with that?

We should be celebrating love, not condemning it. There's far too much hate in the world already.
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Old 2008-01-01, 12:04   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Thankyou! I've been looking all over for that picture

Anyway I personally don't see how some can approve of "incest" only if the pair aren't directly blood related ie brother and sister. You either approve it or not, being blood related or not doesn't really change the fact that it happens. Why would anyone who approves of cousin relationship but not direct ones? They are basically the same with with a family member. Throwing in a nonblood related sibling - ie a family member being adopted who calls you onii chan doesn't change the fact that it isn't incest if they decide to have a relationship so I think that it is weird that people would say that is more acceptable than blood related relationships. You either approve or not imo. I personally wouldn't stick my nose in other people's business unless there is something wrong At the end of the day love is love.
Well it's easy to understand if you know a bit about christian beliefs. According to the bible, we are all cousins. True distant distant distant of the distant cousins, but we all came from the same two seeds. So technically, I can see how people can support cousin dating. As for me personally, I do not have an opinion on it.
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Old 2008-01-01, 14:08   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Fweakin View Post
...

IMHO I think the reason that incest (or implied incest) features in anime is due to its taboo status. Anime to me has always been a fairly liberal medium in terms of issues raised (however storylines with said issues are another kettle of fish altogether). I've always seen it as a moderately boundary pushing medium in terms of social issues.
Insightful point... anime is largely an exercise in some form of escapism - to be transported to an imaginary realm (even in "slice of life" drama). I see all sorts of situations raised in anime which don't typically happen in Japan Real Life. One of my favorite examples involved under-the-radar skewering of racism and the complexities of inter-racial relations in the fantasy romance Petopetosan. They substituted people of mythology (kappa, etc) for real races (Brazilian, Korean, etc) but the issues were largely the same -- and the series was pretty damning of racist attitudes.
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Old 2008-01-01, 15:28   Link #270
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Two questions to you my friend. I assumed since you support brother-sister marriage, you also support father/daughter, mother/son, or even father/son mother/daughter marriage than correct? Or is same-sex marriage and brother-sister marriage the only one tolerable for you?

Secondly, tolerable in terms of what? I respect the right for them to do whatever they please. They have free will for a reason, and can do whatever they wish to do in their own spaces. But if it affects me in anyway, such as a scene shown in anime, or a friend revealed something like this (which never happened), than that is when I must cut the cord so to speak.
First, I did not say I support brother-sister marriage. You may interpret my words wrongly. I think marriage is a social organ that many people have put somehow maybe too heavy (again, that's opinion, not to insult any people have different opinion) a meaning to it, so that some sort of coupling may not work in our current social setting. Again, I think you agree with me that in private spaces they can do whatever they want.

Second, about an "incest" in an anime, I think I have not watched any anime positively portray an outright sibling love... (there are implicit ones, but that's just like yuri things, you can interpret them differently according to your own social and esthetic value. And of course, you can choose not to watch any anime you feel uncomfortable with.

Also do not forget that in Japan, marriage between first cousins is legal and even to some extent preferred.

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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
If we're talking the Bible, sibling marriages were a matter of necessity before the flood. In fact, the last time I checked, modern genetics supports the idea that the entire human species came from two people, so we're all in-bred
Even the very concept of marriage is a hindrance to high birth rates, as it restricts a male, who is always fertile, to one female, who is only occasionally fertile. For best results, a man would need several partners. This was common, but it was not the arrangement instituted in Genesis, meaning that that moral code was not instituted for purpose of encouraging procreation.
First, as one with profound background knowlege and training in biomedical sciences, I have to point out you may have misunderstood the modern molecular biological interpretation about the origin of human beings. No scientific evidence actually supports that we are all offsprings of same two people. There were mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam, but they are vastly different in their meaning compared with the original Bible figures. Since this is not a scientific forum, I am not going into details here, and if you want to know more, I am happy to discuss with you privately...

Second, actually marriage originated because it HELPED to increase the birth rate. It involves social evolution, and is a balance between different behavior strategies in sexual activities among both sexes of human being.
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Old 2008-01-01, 16:26   Link #271
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
If we're talking the Bible, sibling marriages were a matter of necessity before the flood. In fact, the last time I checked, modern genetics supports the idea that the entire human species came from two people, so we're all in-bred
Even the very concept of marriage is a hindrance to high birth rates, as it restricts a male, who is always fertile, to one female, who is only occasionally fertile. For best results, a man would need several partners. This was common, but it was not the arrangement instituted in Genesis, meaning that that moral code was not instituted for purpose of encouraging procreation.
Even if it were true that we all originated from a single coupling (definitively put down by changeup), that was at least several hundred thousand years ago (depends at what point you consider our ancestors crossed the line into "human"). The different selection pressures applied to migrating groups (Europe, Asia, North America, etc) all contribute to a somewhat divergent evolution, the most obvious being skin color in relation to distance from the equator.

Even in theory, marriage does not hinder birthrate. Males and Females are birthed in equal proportions. Theoretically, one male pairs with one female. They are only limited by the long gestation period.
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Old 2008-01-01, 18:05   Link #272
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Actually, the studies don't show that everyone *came* from one couple.. .only that if you trace back through the genetic history we all have the same great-to-the-nth aunt and uncle way back there. Another tracing using a different path would show a different "common ancestor" if I understood the science.

"Species" is a fuzzy thing: fuzzy in start and end and fuzzy at the edges. Its just a convenience to organize a mess of organisms.
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Old 2008-01-01, 19:08   Link #273
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Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Even if it were true that we all originated from a single coupling (definitively put down by changeup), that was at least several hundred thousand years ago (depends at what point you consider our ancestors crossed the line into "human"). The different selection pressures applied to migrating groups (Europe, Asia, North America, etc) all contribute to a somewhat divergent evolution, the most obvious being skin color in relation to distance from the equator.

Even in theory, marriage does not hinder birthrate. Males and Females are birthed in equal proportions. Theoretically, one male pairs with one female. They are only limited by the long gestation period.
That is the thing in regards to the bible. True, one of the biggest debate alive today is the battle of creation belief vs science. Wow that is a completely off topic suitable for another thread, I would like to inform you more about this. There is no crossing the line into human. We all began as human from two people and mated until there was plenty. However a bit later, A flood came in washing away everyone except Noah and his family, (story referred to as Noah's Ark) As the flood ended, Noah and his family went there seperate ways, causing the belief that this is how people of different races were created. The main point of this is that 1) In christian belief, the earth is only 4017 years old (which is still up to debate as we do not know if the bible's year is the same time length as our year.)

2) We all originally started from two humans. (there was no crossing of the line into "human" so to speak as we all originally started as human.)
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Old 2008-01-01, 20:50   Link #274
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Actually (and off-topic) ... that age of earth number is only believed by *some* christians. Many christian scholars don't subscribe to the "4000yrs" idea because the author of that computation had to make some really serious guesses and estimation to connect generations and ages to get his number. Also many christian scholars don't necessarily hold with the creation stories as anything other than metaphors or poetic descriptions. There's not a unified opinion on scripture (if there were, there wouldn't be hundreds of sects and divisions).

I won't debate the human origination stories as they are irrelevant to this discussion.
Genetics, social custom, misinformation, loose definitions, and religious taboo tend to dominate the subject of "incest".
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Old 2008-01-01, 20:54   Link #275
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Originally Posted by babybro View Post
That is the thing in regards to the bible. True, one of the biggest debate alive today is the battle of creation belief vs science. Wow that is a completely off topic suitable for another thread, I would like to inform you more about this. There is no crossing the line into human. We all began as human from two people and mated until there was plenty. However a bit later, A flood came in washing away everyone except Noah and his family, (story referred to as Noah's Ark) As the flood ended, Noah and his family went there seperate ways, causing the belief that this is how people of different races were created. The main point of this is that 1) In christian belief, the earth is only 4017 years old (which is still up to debate as we do not know if the bible's year is the same time length as our year.)

2) We all originally started from two humans. (there was no crossing of the line into "human" so to speak as we all originally started as human.)
This is really off topic and getting dangerously close to a creationism vs evolution debate. The topic is incest, specificly incest in anime. Please don't bring the bible into it unless it's relevent to your position on incest. If you want to discuss the merits of evolution, feel free to create your own thread, which will likely be promptly locked as nothing good comes from those.

Anyway, as to incest in anime, I say basicly what I said the first time this thread made its rounds. Forbidden love makes a great story. As forbidden love goes, you can't top incest, except perhaps yuri incest. In addition to the normal drama that comes from a romance, you get the added drama from the fact that she's the main character's sister or whatever.

As for why we see more incest stories in anime than say US television doesn't have much to do with the taboo on incest itself. Rather, I believe it can be traced to a taboo of discussing taboos in pop culture. Basicly US TV studios don't want to risk offending anyone, so they will tend to stay away from topics such as that. This is mainly because the shows are intended to reach as wide an audience as possible.

Anime, on the other hand is aimed at otaku for the most part. As such they don't have to worry as much about offending people and alienating a certain demographic. This gives a bit more freedom to explore taboo issues, though only a bit. In the end most cases of incest it turns out they aren't blood related. Sure there are some, but even in anime true incest is rare.

Though personally I think it's just as much incest with an adopted sister as a blood related sister, but that's just my view.
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Old 2008-01-01, 21:05   Link #276
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Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32 View Post
Did someone just mention School Days and incest in the same sentence? Allow me to present this:



Discuss it all you want, but try not to derail the thread too much.
If you can understand Japanese, you can watch this and listen to how each of the girls who had relationship with Tomaru. Here, you'll find that what Makoto did is peanuts compared to his dad wwwwwww

Pt. 1 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm954863
Pt. 2 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm971884
Pt. 3 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm982841
Pt. 4 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm982841
Pt. 5 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm1043771

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Old 2008-01-01, 21:06   Link #277
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Right, its the escapist nature of these works of fiction that appeals in many ways.
Many things in anime are really just unacceptable etiquette in Japan society all the way down to the impolite language forms often heard. Much of anime relies on the "edgy" without *actually* delving into incest -- "sister by marriage" or "first cousin but not raised near each other" or "childhood friend/cousin" and all the other permutations which don't amount to any significant genetic issues should there be later offspring.

This is fantasy for the most part --- after all, one of the series I'm looking forward to involves a several hundred year old harvest goddess in the form of a wolf-girl-kami who befriends a medieval traveling merchant. Now that's fantasy
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Old 2008-01-01, 21:18   Link #278
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one of the biggest debate alive today is the battle of creation belief vs science.
Yes, that is one thing I will agree on. However, as an atheist and an evolutionist, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I have read Genesis, but cannot say I like it, at least not a literal interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Anime, on the other hand is aimed at otaku for the most part. As such they don't have to worry as much about offending people and alienating a certain demographic.
I don't think there is anything that defines the otaku demographic that would suggest more tolerance for incest. Sure, there is imoutou-moe, but those types of characters are almost never blood related and it refers more to a certain personality than the actual relationship. Koi Kaze is probably one of the only anime to ever deal heavily with a genuine brother-sister incestuous relationship. Not even Myself;Yourself would do more than imply it.
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Old 2008-01-01, 21:32   Link #279
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That is the thing in regards to the bible. True, one of the biggest debate alive today is the battle of creation belief vs science. Wow that is a completely off topic suitable for another thread, I would like to inform you more about this. There is no crossing the line into human. We all began as human from two people and mated until there was plenty. However a bit later, A flood came in washing away everyone except Noah and his family, (story referred to as Noah's Ark) As the flood ended, Noah and his family went there seperate ways, causing the belief that this is how people of different races were created. The main point of this is that 1) In christian belief, the earth is only 4017 years old (which is still up to debate as we do not know if the bible's year is the same time length as our year.)

2) We all originally started from two humans. (there was no crossing of the line into "human" so to speak as we all originally started as human.)
Getting back tot he Incest topic here. if @2 is true that means the children of those 2 original humans married and had sex with eachother. That means the children of Adam and Eve committed INCEST.

So if incest was back then for the 2nd generation of humanity, why is it unacceptable now?
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Old 2008-01-01, 22:08   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Getting back tot he Incest topic here. if @2 is true that means the children of those 2 original humans married and had sex with eachother. That means the children of Adam and Eve committed INCEST.

So if incest was back then for the 2nd generation of humanity, why is it unacceptable now?
Well in the end we are all related to each other if we go by either evolution or creation I suppose . But kinda a off topic but adding to what Xellos said, so if first two humans were one race, I am guessing some type of Caucasians, how did they had Asian, Black, or Native American as their descendant who looks nothing like that? I am Sorry if that sound really stupid and ignorant, but I never really read the bible so please forgive my ignorance and stupidity .
Also on School Day, what Xellos wrote, that is really screwed up.
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