Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

...Solid argument there, truly.

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing.

Well, on that particular note I can't really fault him for it, I've almost stopped looking at these threads completely since it's pretty much the same old tired arguments week in and week out.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

...Solid argument there, truly.

Just give it up Chaos I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

Just let them complain and move on....

[Dengar]

It happens to a lot of people. I know I've done it a couple times, and I probably will do it a couple more times in the future.

Still though, giving short replies without mentioning the basis is hard to take seriously.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Just give it up Chaos I've long since excepted the fact that the majority of the people who watch this series (including many anime nowadays) are doing it for sole reason to find something to complain about.

Just let them complain and move on....

Don't worry about me, I'm not that invested in the series It's just that this one stood out.

Originally Posted by kyp275

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

It depends, some times there's that one thing that you can't let go no matter how bad it is and you still hope for something...

... Like a bad relationship

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by kyp275

I've never really understood this mentality, If I dislike a show, I drop it and move on to something else, I don't continue to waste hours of my life so I can make myself miserable and complain about how miserable it is on the internet later.

Which should tell you they have nothing else to do with their time.

I've said it many times myself that no one is forcing them to watch a show and if you don't like it then don't watch it.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Hooves

This helps Kirito's development as well. He always goes about solo, or with Asuna. But what about others? Others are offering their hands to help him, but he just neglects them and rushes Leroy Jenkins style for something or for Asuna. He believed he could beat anything solo-style. But I believe that death against the Guardians will help him realize that he needs to amend for neglecting everything in order to get to Asuna. And that he does need others to help him.

This made me laugh.

He pretty much solo'd everything in SAO for 2 years and was one of the best players, not surprising he thinks he still has god status in ALO.

Though I doubt losing against the Guardians changed his mind set, when Suguha resurrected him he went like this:
"Thank you for resurrecting me, but this is my problem, I'll do it alone."
If they didn't realise their real identity, he'd attempt the quest again and die (again). Asking other players for help didn't even cross his mind.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Because half of the ALO arc is Suguha's story. A tragedy surrounding a girl who believes she's the protagonist of a different type of story.

You don't have to like it, and maybe you think the story would be better if it was just Kirito rescuing Asuna, but Suguha herself is a pretty central character to her own story, and that narrative can't just be simply replaced with someone else.

And here is what we see different. For me, her story has nothing to do with the actual plot, so i don't see any point to it. It just wasted episodes and added forced and pointless drama. Her story could easily stand on it's own or be completely removed from this arc and it would not affect anything at all.

Originally Posted by Dengar

So all you remember is the scenes were Kirito beats the bad guys? I guess you forgot about 20 episodes' worth of content magically?

What was this content anway?

Originally Posted by justinstrife

I'm sorry that that is all you can get out of the story. As others have posted, there's a lot more to it than a hero defeating a bad guy and saving the girl...

What is it exactly, this "more to it"?

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I'm not the one making bold claims that she can be 'easily replaced', and when asked to defend your point the only thing you have to say is...


...Solid argument there, truly.

It's not so hard to understand what I meant. Any other player could play her role. So I don't see why it had to be especially her.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I think he's just getting grumpy because he's tired of arguing.

I admit that I'm little tired of it. And I never wanted to fight about it or drag this on for so long.
I think i made my point more than clear.
It just would be nice if someone could show me with examples about how deep the characters are and how great the plot is instead on saying like this. "So all you remember is the scenes were Kirito beats the bad guys? I guess you forgot about 20 episodes' worth of content magically?" or "there's a lot more to it than a hero defeating a bad guy and saving the girl..."

And if I hated this show I would have droped it immediately, but that is not the case. I'm still enyoing it, but there are some things that are bothering me and I have no problem with saying it instead on acting like everything is fine or just downplay them.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Oh believe me I understand what you mean perfectly, but humor me a little and name one character that can replace her.

[Ruby Princess]

Klein. It's pretty obvious that he had a man crush on Kirito. Just have to change the story so that he stalks Kirito to his house after escaping from SAO and goes to live with him.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

<long post>

It's just hard to get a read on what it is you actually want.

You give off this impression that you want it to be a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot, so you apparently refuse to remember anything that hasn't got anything to do with it. After that, you complain about it being a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot.

It's very confusing.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Ruby Princess

Klein. It's pretty obvious that he had a man crush on Kirito. Just have to change the story so that he stalks Kirito to his house after escaping from SAO and goes to live with him.

Problem, how would Klein be a guide for a game he never played and couldn't have played long enough?

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Comparison to D.C.S.S. ~Da Capo Second Season~:

This is the very same theme explored in D.C.S.S., where the whole plot revolved essentially around the inherent unfairness of those were not chosen and finding a way to move on.

Of course, this was an incredibly unpopular show in no small part because of this uncommon theme. A lot of people considered the entire show "pointless" simply because the romantic heroine never changed and they never really further developed the main couple... even though that tied to the very theme of the work.

Ho boy you reminded me of that trainwreck. I remember hating Aisia with a passion for ruining what have been a perfectly fine ending to the first season.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

The entire value of this arc for me lies in the plots (read:boobs, perhaps a few tentacles and round hips). And with how the directing's been done, I'd say that's the producer's intention as well . So would anything of value be lost? I'd say yes!

[Vsin]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

I think this whole arc is about the journey more than the destination. We've known the destination since day one.

(Incidentally, I don't believe the parallels between these two "futile" plot threads is an accident by any means.)

I don't quite consider Sugou to be an apt comparison. Sure, the guy is a painfully stereotypical villain with comedic henchmen, but at least he's a plot device. Stuff happens because he does things. You could replace him with something like a virus, Cardinal, etc, etc but he still fulfills the purpose of holding Asuna captive. The action creates a journey, despite the inevitable conclusion.

With Lyfa/Sugu though, to me it's just an excuse for another haremette and another pair of boobs. Her existence doesn't cause Kirito to change or even reveal anything more about himself. Yes, there are points like how Kirito may not have found out about the meeting if she didn't exist, but that could be remedied by just having him intervene Celestial Being style because he's Kirito. Or to put it another way, Lyfa could be replaced completely with multiple assorted plot pointers because that's all she achieves. The other part - you know, where she's an actual person - doesn't have any impact on anything. Her interactions produce no fruit other than producing a lack of fruit, and if you consider that important then so be it.

[mod edit: removed spoilers]

Lyfa/Sugu certainly has her own story, but it's almost entirely contained within her head and it doesn't interact with the other parallel story of saving Asuna...at least not until the reveal. And the story itself is just "I love onii-chan but can't. I love Kirito but he's onii-chan." In Anime terms, Ep 17 to 21 is spent dragging out this one plot point over way too many events - again, we have a completely missing chapter because the chapter only accomplishes more of the same.

[Dauerlutscher]

Now it gets stupid.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Oh believe me I understand what you mean perfectly, but humor me a little and name one character that can replace her.

It's fine that you understood it and I have no intention to humor you.

Originally Posted by Dengar

It's just hard to get a read on what it is you actually want.

You give off this impression that you want it to be a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot, so you apparently refuse to remember anything that hasn't got anything to do with it. After that, you complain about it being a straightforward one-dimensional Kirito-beats-the-bad-guys plot.

It's very confusing.

That is exactly what I don't want and it's exacly that what is bothering me in this show. And I'm not refusing anything. It's just that I didn't see those "things", whatever they are, like you guys.

So again. Please give me examples of the deep characters ins this show and examples about how deep story is. It would be nice to get some.

[GDB]

If you haven't seen anything you wanted, why are you still with it on episode 22? Most people would drop something like that after episode 3.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Well, on that particular note I can't really fault him for it, I've almost stopped looking at these threads completely since it's pretty much the same old tired arguments week in and week out.

Debating that myself. Just seems to be the closer we get to the end the worse it seems to get, and this is the first board I've actually been active on. I joined back in 2009 and kept my lurker status till now for this very reason.

Originally Posted by Awrya

He pretty much solo'd everything in SAO for 2 years and was one of the best players, not surprising he thinks he still has god status in ALO.

I dont think Kirito thinks of himself as having "god status" in ALO, his battle with Eugene probably showed him that. There's a lot he doesnt know about ALO and he knows that.

Originally Posted by Awrya

Though I doubt losing against the Guardians changed his mind set, when Suguha resurrected him he went like this:
"Thank you for resurrecting me, but this is my problem, I'll do it alone."
If they didn't realise their real identity, he'd attempt the quest again and die (again). Asking other players for help didn't even cross his mind.

I dont think it's that his mind set hasnt changed, his battle with the Guardians showed him he can't do it alone, and even though he knows this, he still picks himself up and moves to try it again. But here's the thing, What else can he do? He has no friends in ALO aside from Leafa and she firmly believes beating/getting past the guardians is impossible, certainly Lou and Sakuya owe him big time, but they aren't ready yet.

I'd certainly like to see Kirito and Eugene attempt it together, that'd certainly be epic. Now what I'd like to see is Kirito get ahold of his SAO friends and tell them the situation, and tell about the Nervgear/SAO glitch. I guarentee you atleast Klein would jump at this considering his loyalty to Kirito.

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

That is exactly what I don't want and it's exacly that what is bothering me in this show. And I'm not refusing anything. It's just that I didn't see those "things", whatever they are, like you guys.

So again. Please give me examples of the deep characters ins this show and examples about how deep story is. It would be nice to get some.

We could give you examples. I could give you a crapload of examples. But what's the point? You have your mind made up about this show. Either your standards on what qualifies as "deep" are much too high, or ours are much too low. We can go back and forth all day long, all week long, and it would make no difference.

Maybe if you didnt require 50+ episodes of character develpment to consider a character or plot "deep," you'd be able to enjoy this show the way some of us do.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by GDB

If you haven't seen anything you wanted, why are you still with it on episode 22? Most people would drop something like that after episode 3.

Because, despite the obvious flaws, it's still enjoyable as simple shounen story. I just find it sad that it had so much potential and has not used it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

It's fine that you understood it and I have no intention to humor you.

Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.