Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Ithekro]

The trouble is, are we sure Beatrice's pieces are black? Maria could be Battler's piece. While Maria seems to be the Black King, they're is the slight chance she's in fact the Black Queen piece. Again the analogy starts to break down when Maria dies before the game ends if Maria is King....unless it means Eva Beatrice is starting another game (having taken the Black King)....or this is not your normal two player chess. Three player...four?

[Tamad]

Originally Posted by winkel

So I've been trying throughout this entire series to reconcile and understand what's happening in each step, but I think I finally fell off the cliff with this ep. As someone who never played the sound novel, I'm feeling it's way too difficult to understand and enjoy the series... because at the end of every ep I always have a bunch of questions, and unfortunately, no answers.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

It's difficult yes, but it shouldn't hinder you from enjoying the series just because your questions aren't answered immediatly, see it more or less a relatively equal position you share with almost everybody consuming Umineko (Of course most VN readers still have a bit more knowledge about events, but even that lessens with each episode).
You have your own chance to explain what happened and everybody can be right and wrong, this is the fun of detective fiction and mystery novels...is it not?

I'm going to agree with chounoke on this one, but I wish to add my own interpretation to it as well. If the amount of questions put way too much pressure on you to the point where it affects your enjoyment of the series, then perhaps you're just biting off more than you can chew at one time? Just absorb all the information slow and easy, perhaps even become a spectator rather than a player in this messed-up magic show, since there really is no shame as long as you enjoy the show in the way most comfortable for you. If the ride to the end is more fun when you aren't the one driving, then so be it.

Originally Posted by winkel

But so then it's up to us to either accept that that was how they were all killed (magic girls and towers and demons and stuff) or figure out a more 'normal' explanation as to how they were killed?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. Anti-mystery (the belief that all the murders are being done with magic) or anti-fantasy (all the magic is just a non-existent flashy light show, and the murders are actually done by a human through means that a human is limited to), trying to prove which side of that coin is pretty much the basis for the entire series.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The question becomes, what (who) are Beatrice's pieces and what (who) are Battler's pieces? Since that game is "chess"...16 pieces per side, but no more than 18 people on the islands. Beatrice's pieces would seem to be her demons and furnature. Bernkastel and Lambda do not seem to be pieces but observers watching the game (or maybe they are waiting for their turn to play). Thus one would assume that Battler's family and their servents are Battler's pieces...save for two who are Beatrice's pieces. We are assuming that Battler is using white pieces and Beatrice is using black pieces.

You know, I didn't think there were people who took the "chess game" in the literal sense. I guess I'm at fault, since I never really looked that deep into it.

[MarthX]

Umineko is the type of show where it's good to rewatch so you can digest things easier. You may not understand something the first time through.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by winkel

2. If each question a new game, why do the events occur differently each time? Shouldn't the main events occur the same way each time so as we can figure out how each event occurred? If there are new forces (new character motives, new events that did not occur during the first experience) at play each time, how can we pinpoint a logical cause for it all?

I'd like to have input on this. If you watched Higurashi, it's basically using the same formula. It is actually better that we are shown a different situation, because we establish that some things are consistent with each repetition while some things aren't.

Deciphering what things are constant and what are not is one of the keys in solving the mystery behind everything.

[Jan-Poo]

The questions were answered but there are two points where I differ.

I do think that MetaBattler and Battler are connected, the only problem is that Battler cannot access to the MetaBattler's memories and therefore cannot act with a superior knowledge of the events.

This connection manifest itself in the way that whenever MetaBattler finds a way to dismantle a theory in the metaworld, the same happens in the gameboard. See episode2, there are a few scenes like that, like when Battler proves Kanon couldn't be the killer.
Note that the opposite never happens. It never happens that piece Battler finds a solution that Meta Battler doesn't. At the same time, if Metabattler is unabled to react to a certain theory because of a red truth, piece Battler is also unable to react even so he is not restrained by any red truth.


Another thing I am not so sure of is that Battler died in Ep1. We actually have no confirmation of this. Of course it is the most obvious conclusion, but the truth doesn't necessarily need to be obvious.

Lastly I believe that there is an unwritten rule that whatever piece Battler sees is the truth. However this is limited to the two days of the game from 0.00 of October 4 to 24:00 of October 5. What was speculated to justify Battler seeing magic in episode2 (being drunk) is actually easier to explain by saying it was past midnight. In fact Battler has started seeing magic even at the end of ep1

[winkel]

Thanks for all the replies! I think I'm starting to get a hang of the world now, so back in game

Originally Posted by MarthX

2. Beatrice seems to control how the pieces move. She does different things every game.

My interpretation is that each time, the chessboard is 'reset.' Beato has the power to reset the chessboard, but the way the pieces unfold and play out is based on endless possibilities, thus different events occur each time.

That is why in this round Eva ended up solving the mystery and finding the gold. It is why Rosa was the last adult left last round. They'll all die, and it'll be via magic (should you choose to believe it) or human hand... the interpretation is left to the viewer.

Originally Posted by MarthX

Umineko isn't supposed to be a fair mystery by the way.

Yeah, I kinda feel that. But I still feel that it should have some consistent logic and rules otherwise it wouldn't be a fun "game." My problem was I didn't understand quite all the rules, so I couldn't grasp the sequence of events and why they were happening.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Not everything that Meta-Battler sees has to be the truth, as he seems to have witnessed the battle between Vargilia and Beatrice and also everything that involved Eva-Beatrice so far. Yet he decided that the magical battle just might not have happened, which is a point we could start with...so we could ask ourselves, "what happens if we eliminate every 'magic' from the gameboard presentation?".

Oh I agree that what Meta-Battler sees is essentially what we as viewers are seeing, and he's fighting to figure out what's real or not as well. I was referring to limiting our trust to what Piece-Battler sees/experiences and what the Red Lines are.

Originally Posted by MarthX

4. Piece and Meta Battler are separate but it does seem they can influence each other a bit. The Battler that submitted to Beatrice and died being eaten in game 2 was Piece not Meta.

But then why was that such an achievement for Beatrice then? If it was piece-Battler, then he shouldn't really be fully aware of the 'big' game he's in anyway, so whether or not he gives in shouldn't be that much of a victory to Meta-Beatrice, no? But I can see that it would be a major victory to Piece-Beato.

Which brings me to the notion of a Piece-Beato...

If we assume that the 'chessboard' is self contained, and that there's a Piece-Beato, why does the Meta-Beato keep on surfacing as well? If Eva-Beatrice got her Endless powers from the Piece-Beato witch, how does the Meta-Beato step in to do her actions in Ep 15 (stopping Eva-Beatrice's rampage, killing Rosa and Maria)?

The idea of an Endless Witch restricted inside of a playing field governed by a Meta-Endless Witch seems a bit... out there. But to assume that Meta-Beato did transfer her Endless powers to Eva-Beatrice simply because this round she happened to find the gold seems off too, because then without her powers, what will happen to the game?

[Jan-Poo]

It is not like Virgilia became powerless, in fact if it wasn't for that cheap trick Beato used, Virgilia would have won the battle.

I think you can assume that even so the title was transfered, Beato still remains a witch.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is not like Virgilia became powerless, in fact if it wasn't for that cheap trick Beato used, Virgilia would have won the battle.

I think you can assume that even so the title was transfered, Beato still remains a witch.

Yeah, she just doesn't have her endless powers anymore. As you can see she had no problem using psychic powers to choke Maria or lift Rosa up into the air. She probably just can't revive/repair people anymore?

[Jan-Poo]

I wonder. Virgilia did try to return Beatrice to her former self, meaning that she still has that power.

[winkel]

Originally Posted by Marion

Yeah, she just doesn't have her endless powers anymore. As you can see she had no problem using psychic powers to choke Maria or lift Rosa up into the air. She probably just can't revive/repair people anymore?

Oh I don't doubt that she still has powers. The two examples with her and Virgilia are examples of that. But aren't the Endless Powers the one that allow her to reset and continue the 'game' over and over again in the first place?

Originally Posted by Tamad

Just absorb all the information slow and easy, perhaps even become a spectator rather than a player in this messed-up magic show, since there really is no shame as long as you enjoy the show in the way most comfortable for you. If the ride to the end is more fun when you aren't the one driving, then so be it.

I've tried, but I find when I finish an episode of an anime and didn't understand what just happened logistically, it dampens my enjoyment.

[Jan-Poo]

Well you know, I am not sure myself. Virgilia seems to still possess the power to return things to their previous state, but it must be said that Virgilia never mastered the endless magic in the first place. So it is impossible to know if she actually lost any power at all

[risingstar3110]

I have a question relating to this and last chapter....

In anime, Virgilia was showed to be killed in action and ended up losing. But in one of the youtube clip, we saw Virgilia was not hit, but when she looked aside there's was a body similar to her(implied that's her real body) lying on the ground stuck with spears. That's when she lost.

How about the original (SN) source ?


Another thing that i'm not sure if it's relevant. It seems some (or all) of the gold were always discovered in each world. In the first world it was Krauss (self-claimed that it was through a merchant). In the second, it was "Beatrice", put it onto the Halloween table. In the the third world it was Rosa and Eva. It seems Rosa could be the culprit:
- Ep I, she found the gold, realised some secrets. Trick Kraus for a purpose then fake her death... before killing everyone
- Ep II, found the gold, also realised some secrets. Killed everyone. Alive till Battler's death
- Ep III, found the gold, realised some secrets. Gave Eva clues so she can find it (for some purposes). Act like she found it too (for a purpose). Killed Maria, then fake her death..

[Christen]

The original one was Virgilia looking behind her and finding out herself there pincushioned by spears. When Beato chanted the spell, the fighting Virgilia slowly faded away.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Christen

The original one was Virgilia looking behind her and finding out herself there pincushioned by spears. When Beato chanted the spell, the fighting Virgilia slowly faded away.

.... now i knows why Jan-Poo called it's "cheap trick".....

But it make more sense than carelessly got shot from behind in action

[Christen]

The thing is, when Beato raised the two towers, the hidden towers behind already killed Virgilia (presumably in an instant). Beato decided to revive Virgilia temporarily and have fun with her.

[ChibiBear]

What I find strange is the fact that she was able to have 2 spears stuck through her and not feel a thing.

[luckyssol]

The anime didn't do that part right.

The Virgilia that was fighting Beato was an illusion and the real Virgilia was defeated at the very beginning.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by ChibiBear

What I find strange is the fact that she was able to have 2 spears stuck through her and not feel a thing.

If you just kill someone and instantly revive that person without that person noticing, she shouldn't have been able to feel it if there's not enough time

[ChibiBear]

Oh, makes sense ^^ Still looks painful

[Jan-Poo]

Well yeah there is that small difference, but technically it isn't much different. Virgilia gets killed, and in the blink of an eye Beatrice revives her. This means that the battle you see after that really happens (at least in the magic world) and Beatrice lost.

However Virgilia at that point was already a piece being taken by Beatrice, so Beatrice reset her status turning her back to how she was when she died and of course anything that she did after that was reset as well.


The cheap trick is the fact that Beatrice called two towers, but in fact she summoned four of them, two of them very far behind Virgilia. In other words it was an unannounced check.

Also it should be said that in chess you are supposed to start with two rooks not four.

Ah maybe not everyone got all the chess reference. However the towers are rooks, the giants are the pawns, ant the halberds are bishops.

In fact pawns are used to create a defensive barrier and bishops are the perfect pieces to pierce through such a defense.

It seems some (or all) of the gold were always discovered in each world.

Well I wouldn't say so. In the first episode the only ingot we see is the one that Krauss recovered from the bank that made it analyze. In other words that ingot wasn't with the rest of the gold.

In episode two the three ingots certainly come from the pile of gold we see in Episode3, but there's still the possibility that they were brought there by the person that acts as Beatrice. Of course this would mean that Beatrice, as she claims, knows the gold location already.