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aeriolewinters · 2012-08-27, 00:40

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I don't remember Kira seeing Fllay through Lacus...

There's this .gif that I lost, it's from the aftermath of the failed rescue attempt at Fllay.

hero147 · 2012-08-27, 00:44

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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

There's this .gif that I lost, it's from the aftermath of the failed rescue attempt at Fllay.

To add on, it's when Kira faints after the battle against the 3 druggies after the Mendal Colony gun fight (where he finds out he's the ultimate coordinator). It should be the episode where Kira' ends up crying on Lacus' lap.

Edit: I like the KiraxLacus pairing even if it is a bit too conservative for my tastes. Though being conservative surely doesn't mean that they don't love each other. It's pretty stupid to measure an abstract concept through physical actions.

monster · 2012-08-27, 00:51

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

My point wasn't about the development (or the lack thereof in some cases), my point is that they picked a shit way of showing it and that hurts the development itself.

And my point is you seem to be ignoring what they showed.

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I wasn't comparing the two couples, so don't fucking put words in my mouth.

When did I say you did?.

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I was pointing out that they actually gave a halfassed attempt at trying to depict it properly

Right, and I (I repeat: I) made the comparison that Kira and Lacus also had a depiction of their relationship developing.

Again, my point is that you keep saying that their depiction is bad while seemingly ignoring what they actually depict.

Kuroi Hadou · 2012-08-27, 01:02

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Originally Posted by monster

Again, my point is that you keep saying that their depiction is bad while seemingly ignoring what they actually depict.

And his point is what they actually depict is bad. I'm inclined to agree, given just how much their interactions were depicted in a series of vacuums rather than taken as a whole, and even if you ignore that it feels more like trying to build a relationship off of instant attraction and emotional weaknesses rather than legitimate maturing feelings.

monster · 2012-08-27, 01:14

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And his point is what they actually depict is bad. I'm inclined to agree,

And I'm inclined to disagree when I think he's not looking at the whole picture.

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given just how much their interactions were depicted in a series of vacuums rather than taken as a whole, and even if you ignore that it feels more like trying to build a relationship off of instant attraction and emotional weaknesses rather than legitimate maturing feelings.

Well, it's a good thing they're not married yet. It gives them a chance to legitimately let their feelings mature.

Kuroi Hadou · 2012-08-27, 01:20

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Originally Posted by monster

And I'm inclined to disagree when I think he's not looking at the whole picture.

Oh good. I'm inclined to disagree when I think you're not looking at the whole picture.

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Well, it's a good thing they're not married yet. It gives them a chance to legitimately let their feelings mature.

That's the problem: They shouldn't need to wait until their married for feelings to mature. The series should have already done that instead of playing what was more like a game of "Hi/Bye" than "let's build a relationship."

monster · 2012-08-27, 01:28

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Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Oh good. I'm inclined to disagree when I think you're not looking at the whole picture.

You're welcome to show me what I'm missing.

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That's the problem: They shouldn't need to wait until their married for feelings to mature. The series should have already done that instead of playing what was more like a game of "Hi/Bye" than "let's build a relationship."

A relationship isn't just something you build once and you're done. It's something you work on and develop even after you're married. Part of that working out is your feelings for each other.

Rising Dragon · 2012-08-27, 01:31

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Originally Posted by monster

A relationship isn't just something you build once and you're done. It's something you work on and develop even after you're married. Part of that working out is your feelings for each other.

Except that's NOT. HAPPENING. With these two.

monster · 2012-08-27, 01:36

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Except that's NOT. HAPPENING. With these two.

I would say it is happening, just at a slower pace than most people would care for.

Rising Dragon · 2012-08-27, 01:41

0 MPH is not a slower fucking pace! It's not even a pace at all, it's NOTHING. It's one moment they're not a couple and the next they are AND THEY'RE STILL DOING NOTHING. And they expect people to eat this shit up and the Japanese do! It fucking tells people it's alright to not develop relationships they have no fucking use for in the stories they write!

I don't care that there's a timeskip that gives Kira and Lacus two years to "develop" a relationship, if the people don't see it happening then it's not fucking development, is it? It's fan pandering is what it is!

monster · 2012-08-27, 02:00

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

0 MPH is not a slower fucking pace! It's not even a pace at all, it's NOTHING. It's one moment they're not a couple and the next they are AND THEY'RE STILL DOING NOTHING.

One moment, they're not a couple, but over time they found reasons to care for each other and be with each other. That's not nothing.

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I don't care that there's a timeskip that gives Kira and Lacus two years to "develop" a relationship, if the people don't see it happening then it's not fucking development, is it? It's fan pandering is what it is!

It's not like after the time skip, they're married and have kids. They haven't even kissed on screen yet; that would be fan pandering.

Rising Dragon · 2012-08-27, 02:02

They don't need to, it's already considered the "perfect couple" by Japanese standards (the only ones that count) so yes, it's fucking fan pandering.

monster · 2012-08-27, 02:19

Okay, even if we say it was, it still doesn't negate how they got to be where they are.

Destined_Fate · 2012-08-27, 02:27

Makes me wonder which generation they're trying to pander to since I'm sure many younger Japanese wouldn't really like to be in such a relationship as emotionless and detached as that.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You missed my point (and some of yours don't even make sense). My point is that it was handled really fucking badly as far as depictions go. It's made especially jarring given how we get better relationship development depictions from practically everyone fucking else, including Kira!

Well with Aisha dead, it's not really a relationship anymore, is it? And where the hell is this bit about Mu being suicidal coming from?

Shinn and Luna at least have the excuse of them entering the relationship as bonding over a really hard time. Which is still diluted to fuck when you consider that the really hard time was Shinn killing her little sister and her crush for being traitors. That said, it's definitely not what you'd call a healthy relationship, though they seem to stabilize after finding out that Meyrin was indeed alive and well.

Well, they didn't stabilize right away considering that Lunamaria decided to fight with Shinn still than at the last second decided she didn't want Shinn and Athrun to kill each other after all... Which almost got her killed.

At least Shinn matured out of that by the end and let go of his hate and they stayed a couple after everything had settled down.

There's also the Shinn and Lunamaria friendship since they knew each other before Destiny. Than when Shinn was extremely jealous when Athrun got the Savior and Lunamaria wanted to see his cool Red Gundam and not Shinn's Gundam. Couldn't help laughing at that scene since Athrun was oblivious and being a gentleman while Shinn was angry but the look on his face made it seem like he didn't even know why he was angry over this.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2012-08-27, 02:45

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Andrew isn't healthy, he still hasn't moved on from Aisha. Mwu also is way too suicidal to consider that healthy.

Regarding Andrew: From your own words, it's not a relationship anymore when one of the couple dies

.

Regarding Mu: Seriously, if putting your life on the line to (directly) protect the one you love from death itself is not “healthy”, I don’t wanna know what you consider as “healthy relationship”.
Note: Mu has gone through a lot of dangerous situations because he’s a soldier on the frontline of war. It’s not like he’s looking for it or suicidal

.

As for Kiracus realtionship, let’s just count the development points shall we

:

Spoiler for Kiracus development:

The points are all from me. Please take it with a grain of salt.

Don’t be so serious.

Eidolon Sniper · 2012-08-27, 04:06

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Regarding Andrew: From your own words, it's not a relationship anymore when one of the couple dies

.

Regarding Mu: Seriously, if putting your life on the line to (directly) protect the one you love from death itself is not “healthy”, I don’t wanna know what you consider as “healthy relationship”.
Note: Mu has gone through a lot of dangerous situations because he’s a soldier on the frontline of war. It’s not like he’s looking for it or suicidal

.

Did he know about how Murrue's last loved one/boyfriend died? I think he did? In that case, Mwu should KNOW that trying to do anything akin to how Murrue's last boyfriend died is a definite no-no (seeing as Murrue is still hurting and traumatized from it). Yeah, they're in the military and accidents happen, but actively going in the way of a photon beam when it's a lost cause is probably the stupidest thing to do, seeing how he forced Murrue to see him die right in front of her eyes.

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As for Kiracus realtionship, let’s just count the development points shall we

:

Spoiler for Kiracus development:

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First met: Kira saved Lacus. Kira stunned at the first sight of Lacus. (love points: 3/10 from Kira)

Except we all know it's part of the script? Also, it wasn't Kira who saved Lacus, it was Lowe.

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Fllay incident: Kira being nice to Lacus. Lacus was impressed and witnessed Kira’s suffering. (love points: 4 from Kira & 3 from Lacus)

Kira did that because he's generally a nice guy. That's why Lacus liked him right? He didn't do it just because she was a Coordinator, but because he was a genuine nice guy. About the Fllay incident, one episode earlier she was making origami flowers for all the dead Coordinators on Junius 7, then next episode she goes all hissy and EEWWCOORDINATORSALLDIEDIEDIEDIE!!11

that's really bad characterization, if there was one...

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Hostage: Kira defy all orders to bring Lacus back to ZAFT. Lacus was further impressed. (LP Kira=5, Lacus=5)

Again, refer to the point made above.

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Post deathmatch: Lacus treated Kira. Lacus witnessed Kira’s suffering and know more about his personality. (LP Kira=6, Lacus=7)

If Malchio didn't send him to the PLANTs, there's no way in hell would Kira end up being treated by Lacus.

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Freedom: Lacus “betrayed” PLANT to give Kira a new weapon. Kiss on the cheek ^^. (LP Kira=7.5, Lacus=8)

Yeah, give all top secret weapons to enemies, why don't you.

politics/military whatnots be damned.

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Eternal: Kira saved Lacus with his Freedom. Lacus’ dad died. She couldn’t stand it anymore and throw herself to Kira’s embrace ^^. (LP Kira=8.5, Lacus=9)

Yeah that's right, she's always throwing herself at Kira!

I mean, there's really nothing going on between them for half the series, let's just have her suddenly feel Kira is so important to her and can't live without him in her life! And hey! Isn't this the same thing when Fllay's dad died too?

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Final Battle: Lacus gave a ring to Kira. Kira promised that he’ll come back to her. (LP Kira=9 (due to lingering feelings of Fllay), Lacus=Max)

Like there's really any way out of that situation...

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Destiny: (LP Kira=Max, Lacus=Max)

Naaahhh, they just had to because Fllay's already dead. But even then, it's funny how 2 years had already passed and for some reason, Lacus can't really connect to Kira, except those forced incidents between the 2 of them.

monster · 2012-08-27, 04:44

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Did he know about how Murrue's last loved one/boyfriend died? I think he did? In that case, Mwu should KNOW that trying to do anything akin to how Murrue's last boyfriend died is a definite no-no (seeing as Murrue is still hurting and traumatized from it). Yeah, they're in the military and accidents happen, but actively going in the way of a photon beam when it's a lost cause is probably the stupidest thing to do, seeing how he forced Murrue to see him die right in front of her eyes.

So instead you want Mu to let Murrue and the Archangel crew just die in front of him?

Spoiler for Kiracus development:

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Except we all know it's part of the script?

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About the Fllay incident, one episode earlier she was making origami flowers for all the dead Coordinators on Junius 7, then next episode she goes all hissy and EEWWCOORDINATORSALLDIEDIEDIEDIE!!11

that's really bad characterization, if there was one...

Flay probably did the origami because everybody else was doing it. It's not like she was actually going to be involved with a Coordinator by folding paper cranes.

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If Malchio didn't send him to the PLANTs, there's no way in hell would Kira end up being treated by Lacus.

Who did you think asked Malchio to bring Kira to her in the first place?

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Yeah, give all top secret weapons to enemies, why don't you.

politics/military whatnots be damned.

Not at all, Lacus was playing politics as well.

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Yeah that's right, she's always throwing herself at Kira!

I mean, there's really nothing going on between them for half the series, let's just have her suddenly feel Kira is so important to her and can't live without him in her life! And hey! Isn't this the same thing when Fllay's dad died too?

Well, there was really no one else. It can't be Athrun because it's his dad that caused the death of her father.

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Like there's really any way out of that situation...

What situation?

Anyway, Kira's already proven that he could sometimes allow himself to be in danger. Lacus was just trying her best to get Kira to focus on surviving, even giving Kira a personal item to hold and return to her with him alive.

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Naaahhh, they just had to because Fllay's already dead. But even then, it's funny how 2 years had already passed and for some reason, Lacus can't really connect to Kira, except those forced incidents between the 2 of them.

I think they're connecting just fine.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2012-08-27, 05:50

Wow, someone here is actually not bright enough to take my half-assed “chronological romantic development list” seriously.

Did you not read what I wrote? I said, “take it with a grain of salt”. Or maybe you don’t know what that means?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Did he know about how Murrue's last loved one/boyfriend died? I think he did? In that case, Mwu should KNOW that trying to do anything akin to how Murrue's last boyfriend died is a definite no-no (seeing as Murrue is still hurting and traumatized from it). Yeah, they're in the military and accidents happen, but actively going in the way of a photon beam when it's a lost cause is probably the stupidest thing to do, seeing how he forced Murrue to see him die right in front of her eyes.

My answer is exactly the same with monster. Do you want Mwu to let Murrue and all Archangel’s crew to be blasted to their deaths just so that “Mwu doesn’t cause further trauma to Murrue”?

That is idiotic coz: (1) Mu didn’t have a choice except to protect her since he loves Murrue so much; (2) a traumatized lover with a chance of getting better is A LOT better than a vaporized lover.

I don’t even have to respond to all your reply coz most of it miss my point spectacularly. Also, I see that monster is already kind enough to respond to all your reply to me (thanx very much, monster). So, I’ll just say this to you:

I make the “development list” just to focus on the “love points” that both Kira & Lacus get for each interaction they get. Once again, I didn’t make the list to stress or justify any events that I wrote coz my focus is the “romantic” interactions and “love points” (the bolded parts). The events that I wrote there, are plainly what was presented in the anime. Why do you even have to argue that? Do you also want to deny the things that actually happens in SEED? The “love points” itself is my own concept, but I already told you that it’s just for the lulz.

Note: Just so you know, I’m not interested in “shipping wars” in SEED. I just happened to wrote about Kira & Lacus’ romantic development. It doesn’t mean I’m in “Team Lacus”. Don’t you get it?

Destined_Fate · 2012-08-27, 06:42

Indeed, had Fllay lived Kira and her would have hooked back up together. It's because she died that Lacus was taken up by Kira. Good thing they avoided that issue with Shinn by making him see Stella has his dead sister and not a lover so even if she lives it doesn't change his relationship with Lunamaria.

hero147 · 2012-08-27, 09:28

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Indeed, had Fllay lived Kira and her would have hooked back up together. It's because she died that Lacus was taken up by Kira. Good thing they avoided that issue with Shinn by making him see Stella has his dead sister and not a lover so even if she lives it doesn't change his relationship with Lunamaria.

Had Fllay lived, Kira would still be with Lacus. He rejected her with time to spare before she got kidnapped by Rau Lecruset.

2012-08-27, 01:41	Link #4150
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	0 MPH is not a slower fucking pace! It's not even a pace at all, it's NOTHING. It's one moment they're not a couple and the next they are AND THEY'RE STILL DOING NOTHING. And they expect people to eat this shit up and the Japanese do! It fucking tells people it's alright to not develop relationships they have no fucking use for in the stories they write! I don't care that there's a timeskip that gives Kira and Lacus two years to "develop" a relationship, if the people don't see it happening then it's not fucking development, is it? It's fan pandering is what it is! __________________

2012-08-27, 02:02	Link #4152
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	They don't need to, it's already considered the "perfect couple" by Japanese standards (the only ones that count) so yes, it's fucking fan pandering. __________________

2012-08-27, 02:19	Link #4153
monster Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	Okay, even if we say it was, it still doesn't negate how they got to be where they are.

2012-08-27, 06:42	Link #4159
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Indeed, had Fllay lived Kira and her would have hooked back up together. It's because she died that Lacus was taken up by Kira. Good thing they avoided that issue with Shinn by making him see Stella has his dead sister and not a lover so even if she lives it doesn't change his relationship with Lunamaria.