Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Nanya01]

Gunna spin this one right back at you, Triple_R...

Do you think anybody who was put in Hayate's position would have met with the same success that she did? Or do you think that Hayate's personality played at least some role in her meeting with that success

Do the wolkenritter really think that Hayate had a chance at success where none of their previous masters could break the cycle?

In fact, in the movie, until the dream world was shaken, Hayate was falling into the darkness just like every previous master.

I point to canon where Hayate over-came it through sheer force of will as a key difference between the movie and canon.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's a very questionable analogy, Kaijo. Magic use and manipulation in the Nanohaverse has a certain personal quality to it that "running across a busy freeway" doesn't have. Strength of will, character, heart, natural talent, differences in Linker Cores, these all play a role in how well somebody utilizes magic.

The Wolkenritter took hold of a faint hope that Hayate had what it takes to be an exception. In a more cynical universe they'd probably pay for that choice. But here, their decision to place their hopes in Hayate was ultimately vindicated.

Actually, it was Nanoha and Fate that ultimately freed Hayate. It was Nanoha pounding on Reinforce that helped wake Hayate up. Had it not been for Nanoha, and then later with Fate to blast Reinforce, Hayate would have died, same as the other masters.

You're right in that we're dealing with magic, and personality can shape things. We are in an idealistic universe where that is possible. But as I just noted, that wasn't enough to save Hayate. Had it not been for Nanoha (and Fate, and Yuuno as well for finding out enough information), Hayate would have died.

Edit: For what it's worth, the plot would have been a bit tighter if the Wolkenritter's memories were explicitly vague/faded and a few pieces of dialogue were changed. But wow, guys, are you ever making mountains out of molehills here. It's sad that a couple somewhat questionable plot points appears to have completely ruined the movie for you.

Heh, you haven't followed this thread from the beginning, or at least since the start of the reviews. Trust me, there is FAR more that we had issues with. If you want to hop on AIM, I can at least inform you what's going on, so I don't rehash it all here.

But suffice it to say, this is a fairly major one, because there is a distinct lack of intelligence in the Wolkies with this movie (and a few other characters). I'm an anime critic, so I get critical. I'm also someone who despises stupidity in my characters (you should know enough about me to know that much ). And this particular storyline was done perfectly before, so it makes the flaws that much more apparent.

[Archon_Wing]

The Wolkies behavior is easily explained away. They love Hayate and want to save her life. But what were they initally designed for?

The book is designed to collect magic and fill it up. The master dying is not only part of the process, but to be expected as well. Therefore, all components of the Book of Darkness are to furfill the goal. The Wokies are a sentient, autonomous part of the Book's system, but I'd imagine their memories are designed on a need to know basis and the whole killing their master thing would be blocked out. It has to be; it's a basic safeguard. Why would you allow a program of yours to get second thoughts and not complete your intended purpose just because this Master is extra nice? That is why NachtWal came out the moment the Knights were getting too close to putting two and two together.

I can also speculate that the Wolkies are by design xenophobic and aggressive to everyone that's not their master. This isn't the first or last time in history this has ever happened before that matters could be resolved peacefully, but wouldn't due to xenophobia and other fears. Considering that this is a recurring theme in a number of mecha series, especially Gundam, and that Nanoha pays mecha series tribute frequently, this isn't surprising either.

These measures would get stuff done, and I were to some reason create something like the Book of Darkness, with autonomous intelligent and conscious parts, it would be necessary to deny them that level of free will and they would have to lack that sense of conciousness to complete most missions. I get the feeling that Hayate couldn't have been the only good master.

This would be no different from the hidden directive in Robocop.

[Nanya01]

But Murphy deleted the hidden directive in Robocop.

[Archon_Wing]

I should have picked something that made more sense then, lol.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The Wolkies behavior is easily explained away. They love Hayate and want to save her life. But what were they initally designed for?

The book is designed to collect magic and fill it up. The master dying is not only part of the process, but to be expected as well. Therefore, all components of the Book of Darkness are to furfill the goal. The Wokies are a sentient, autonomous part of the Book's system, but I'd imagine their memories are designed on a need to know basis and the whole killing their master thing would be blocked out. It has to be; it's a basic safeguard. Why would you allow a program of yours to get second thoughts and not complete your intended purpose just because this Master is extra nice? That is why NachtWal came out the moment the Knights were getting too close to putting two and two together.

But that's contradicted by Signum remembering that Reinforce told them that NachtWall was a bad thing, and would do all sorts of bad things to them. If such a directive existed, and could alter the Wolkies minds', then it would erase from their memories any knowledge of its existence. That's part of what made the series work: the corruption prevented the Wolkies from knowing what would happen when the book was completed.

I can also speculate that the Wolkies are by design xenophobic and aggressive to everyone that's not their master.

Hayate: "Hi everyone, I'd like you to meet my new friend, Suzuka!"
Suzuka: "Hel-"
*swish!*
Hayate: *stares at the cut-in-half body of Suzuka on the floor* "OH MY GOD! Why did you do that!?"
Signum: *grins sheepishly* "She wasn't my master. Sorry, just how I'm programmed!"
Hayate: "Mou. That makes the 5th dead person I've tried to introduce to you guys this week. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get ready for my appointment with Dr. Ishida tomorrow."
Shamal: *nervous* "Um, yeah, about that... all your appointments with her were canceled by the hospital, for some reason, that has nothing to do with us..." *fidgets and sweats*

Yeah, the Wolkies have been pretty friendly to a lot of people, so I'm not sure this reason measures up.

Edit: I should restate that your reasoning isn't a bad one; the defense program in the series actually did that, fragmenting their memories so the knights wouldn't know. The problem arises in that the movie didn't take that route. Not only did it omit any mention of the Wolkies' memories being bad or having gaps, but it went out of its way to showcase that they very clearly remembered the defense program (NachtWall in this case) and that it was bad news.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Let me try to clarify this...

In the series, Vita says that she has a feeling there are things they are forgetting. This is important, because the series is telling you that their memories with regards to the book are flawed.

We don't have that in the movie. There is no indication from any of the knights, that they had faulty memories. You cannot go off the series to presume anything, since the movie is a different continuity. Signum clearly remembers Reinforce talking about NachtWall, nailing another coffin in the idea that the knights didn't know what was going on. They did. All indications were that their memories were just fine. They damn well should have known what happens when the book is complete. There was no indication otherwise. None. Reinforce deliberately talks about the reincarnation thing, which happens when the book is destroyed. They know Nachtwall will go berserk, spend all the power destroying things, except for just enough to reincarnate (with the master dying in the process).

Now, you can say that their plan was, "Yeah, but we hope this time it's different!" and you'd have somewhat of a point. Signum's conversation with Fate somewhat bears this out, essentially saying, "We know, but we don't care. Don't judge us!"

But that just lays bare to the fact that the knights were utterly, colossally stupid. If the book destroyed all your previous masters when it was complete, what the hell makes you think this time will be any different? That is what we mean when we say the knights didn't just get hit with the idiot ball, they returned and continued bashing their heads against the idiot ball.

The series flowed naturally and made sense; the series knights could reasonably expect that completing the book would help Hayate. The movie knights should have thought, "Well, Hayate is gonna die if we do nothing. And she'll die if we complete the book. Perhaps we should, I dunno, ask for help? Sure, there is a chance the DAB might not not be able to do anything, but that's a better chance then letting them die. If you have a sick friend, do you try to operate knowing that since you have no medical training, you'll most likely kill them? Or do you take them to get help?

This was compounded by Nanoha and Fate repeatedly trying to talk to them and find out what was going on. In the series, as was pointed out, Nanoha and Fate were identified as working with the TSAB early on. They weren't here.

Hell, Reinforce herself knows what a bad thing the NachtWall is, since it is on her wrist. She had no reason to attack Nanoha and Fate. Defend, sure, but not attack. It was the perfect opportunity to ask for help, or at least say, "If I don't attack you, this thing on my wrist will take over." She, more than anyone, knows what will happen to Hayate (Hence trying to give Hayate a sweet dream).

Idiot balls all around.

Edit: In the series, Vita was attacked by Fate who came to the defense of Nanoha. Fate identified herself as working for the Bureau. Vita and Zafira were cornered by TSAB mages, and attacked by Chrono. In the series, then, the knights had every reason to distrust the Bureau. They also had the Lieze twins messing things up, causing the Wolks to be even more suspicious and distrustful.

In the movie, the knights had no reason to distrust the Bureau. Lindy came up onto the roof to talk, although with a device to defend herself. Who stopped the talk? Vita. At the very least, they knew their plan had a snowball's chance in hell of working, and maybe, just maybe, they should have tried to talk to the people saying, "Hey, can you explain things to us?"

I'm pretty sure when Lindy talked to Signum, talking about that incident 11 years ago Signum reacted with surprise - she didn't know anything about it. It's not as blatant as the series, but it's clear there the knights do NOT remember everything.

They remember some bits and pieces - like NachtWal first being installed. They never remember the moments when NachtWal kills everything.

[Nanya01]

Actually, Signum's surprise is because she didn't know that Lindy's husband died during the last incident.

Since he, you know, died when the book was supposedly sealed away.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But that's contradicted by Signum remembering that Reinforce told them that NachtWall was a bad thing, and would do all sorts of bad things to them. If such a directive existed, and could alter the Wolkies minds', then it would erase from their memories any knowledge of its existence. That's part of what made the series work: the corruption prevented the Wolkies from knowing what would happen when the book was completed.

Well, I have to admit that detail did more hurt than help. But my point is that it is still in the book's interest to sabotage any efforts that would prevent book completion, even if apparently it has messed up here. Bug or feature?

Hayate: "Hi everyone, I'd like you to meet my new friend, Suzuka!"
Suzuka: "Hel-"
*swish!*
Hayate: *stares at the cut-in-half body of Suzuka on the floor* "OH MY GOD! Why did you do that!?"
Signum: *grins sheepishly* "She wasn't my master. Sorry, just how I'm programmed!"
Hayate: "Mou. That makes the 5th dead person I've tried to introduce to you guys this week. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get ready for my appointment with Dr. Ishida tomorrow."
Shamal: *nervous* "Um, yeah, about that... all your appointments with her were canceled by the hospital, for some reason, that has nothing to do with us..." *fidgets and sweats*

Yeah, the Wolkies have been pretty friendly to a lot of people, so I'm not sure this reason measures up.

Well, in this particular case, Suzuka has already been approved by their master. This makes it easier to trust them, and she is obviously not a threat in any way whatsoever. They also need to serve their master, and it also doesn't interfere with magic collecting anyways. Thus, there is nothing to gain by acting hostile, and arguably why the Wokies have sentience to begin with and need at least to pretend to be personable if needed.

This is why when they see Nanoha and Fate visiting Hayate and are extremely frustrated as a result.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

I'm pretty sure when Lindy talked to Signum, talking about that incident 11 years ago Signum reacted with surprise - she didn't know anything about it. It's not as blatant as the series, but it's clear there the knights do NOT remember everything.

They remember some bits and pieces - like NachtWal first being installed. They never remember the moments when NachtWal kills everything.

Good catch... but the knights weren't active at that moment. The book had been sealed (so the knights were sealed inside the book, deactivated), but was breaking out of that seal and threatening to go berserk, so Clyde took it out of the ship.

Edit: Nanya's point also makes sense.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, I have to admit that detail did more hurt than help. But my point is that it is still in the book's interest to sabotage any efforts that would prevent book completion, even if apparently it has messed up here. Bug or feature?

Well, its backup plan for that has always been to feast on the master. From that standpoint, it wouldn't really care. It either gets the energy from the master, or from the pages.

Well, in this particular case, Suzuka has already been approved by their master. This makes it easier to trust them, and she is obviously not a threat in any way whatsoever. They also need to serve their master, and it also doesn't interfere with magic collecting anyways. Thus, there is nothing to gain by acting hostile, and arguably why the Wokies have sentience to begin with and need at least to pretend to be personable if needed.

This is why when they see Nanoha and Fate visiting Hayate and are extremely frustrated as a result.

I can't help but feel you're really stretching to find something, some reasoning no matter how complex and far out. But even you have to admit that their frustration has more to do with the fact that Nanoha and Fate just made the connection of who Hayate was. Remember, they made the very deliberate decision to ignore Hayate's command in order to save her life, showcasing that they have independent will. They didn't cut down Nanoha and Fate immediately upon entering. They allowed the girls to visit with Hayate for awhile.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but see the Wolkies as independent entities, completely under their own control. If NachtWall could really control them, then Vita would have never got off that attack when it first appeared. It wouldn't have needed to bind the Wolkies before draining their cores. Zafira wouldn't have been able to attack it, either. And if you can mess with their minds, it is much simpler to just adjust the Wolkies so they don't see NachtWall as a threat.

Edit: There is also the hospital staff, probably the mail man, the neighbors, the grocery store employees, and everyone they meet on the streets.... not all of which Hayate introduced to them. Zafira even notes that the world isn't a warzone.

[Nanya01]

Suzuka's not a threat?

Fate?

Fate: *Eyes spinning* Volleyball sucks!



I'm just messing around there.

Still, movie never hints that the Wolkenritter don't know what's going to happen. That's the biggest problem with the way they were acting in it. Canon at least has three things going for it in that regard, 1: Nanoha and Fate announced that they're part of the Bureau. 2: Their memories have more holes than Swiss cheese. 3: The twins kept interfering.

[krisslanza]

I'm almost positive at some point the movie also points out the Knights' memories have holes. When NachtWal activates, Vita immediately remembers that it's the cause behind everything if I remember.

I would have to rewatch the movie though to be sure.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

I'm almost positive at some point the movie also points out the Knights' memories have holes. When NachtWal activates, Vita immediately remembers that it's the cause behind everything if I remember.

I would have to rewatch the movie though to be sure.

You're partially right. But just prior to that, Signum says: "NachtWal? Why? Wait! Not yet! We can still fight!" That shows that they were very aware of the program, and what it meant when it activated. Vita's words, then, can be taken more to mean that the real problem behind all this just materialized, and now she can attack it. She couldn't do anything while it was just laying dormant in the book.

Though why she didn't bust out Gigant Hammer the instant it showed up, is yet another hole....

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Keroko

But it wasn't very logical. They saw these two being friends with Hayate.

No, they didn't see that. They saw that them and Hayate shared a mutual friend. And even that mutual friend in question was somebody that had only recently become friends with Hayate. Forget about the Wolkenritter acting harshly towards Nanoha and Fate - I could even understand this making the Wolkenritter suspicious of Suzuka...

They knew they were caring people.

How did they know that? Because them and Hayate happen to share a mutual friend? That hospital visit is the very first time they encountered Nanoha and Fate outside of a combat situation where the two sides are literally trying to pulverize one another.

They knew they were trying to tell them something.

Yeah, possibly to trick them.

And yet, that's the Nanoha series in a nutshell. The antagonists being the main characters.

I disagree. Fact of the matter is that Fate doesn't even show up until the quarter point of the first season. And Nanoha has just as much screen-time as Fate does even from that quarter-point on. Nanoha is clearly the main character of the first season, imo.

And Hayate's total screen presence in Nanoha A's is no greater than Nanoha or Fate's.

And Striker S certainly runs contrary to your argument, lol.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Do the wolkenritter really think that Hayate had a chance at success where none of their previous masters could break the cycle?

Apparently so.

My view is that here in this movie, the Wolkenritter had no good options from their perspective. So they basically went with their gut/heart.

Let me be clear - I'm not a big fan of TSAB/DAB. We're talking about an organization that treats a nine year old girl like a serious criminal because said girl is trying to help her mother and save her sister. And then there's some of the dark truths that StrikerS reveals about TSAB/DAB.

If I was one of the Wolkenritter, I don't think I'd feel comfortable trying to get help from them either.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And this particular storyline was done perfectly before, so it makes the flaws that much more apparent.

To be fair, I can certainly understand how unnecessary changes that make a plot less tight can be infuriating. Yes, the writing staff made some very questionable changes here.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're partially right. But just prior to that, Signum says: "NachtWal? Why? Wait! Not yet! We can still fight!" That shows that they were very aware of the program, and what it meant when it activated. Vita's words, then, can be taken more to mean that the real problem behind all this just materialized, and now she can attack it. She couldn't do anything while it was just laying dormant in the book.

Though why she didn't bust out Gigant Hammer the instant it showed up, is yet another hole....

Alternatively it could simply be that when NachtWal shows up, their memories start to fill back in - it's just at the time, the one that was like "Oh right, NachtWal kills EVERYTHING" hadn't come up yet.

[Nanya01]

Triple_R, again, in the movie, Nanoha and Fate were NEVER linked to the bureau by the Wolkenritter, at all. Nanoha and Fate never mentioned it, the Wolkenritter never asked about it, so... Yeah, there's still that problem with the way they're acting towards someone who shows up and just wants to talk.

And, again, Lindy shows up and tells Signum that her husband died because of them 11 years ago and Signum actually showed some regret over that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Triple_R, again, in the movie, Nanoha and Fate were NEVER linked to the bureau by the Wolkenritter, at all.

Sure they were. The rationale Signum gave for attacking Nanoha and Fate on the rooftop was that Nanoha and Fate would alert DAB if they weren't prevented from doing so. And previously on this thread, I gave a perfectly good reason for why the Wolkenritter would believe Nanoha and Fate to be working with DAB.

Nanoha and Fate never mentioned it, the Wolkenritter never asked about it, so...

The Wolkenritter felt it was clear enough from how Nanoha and Fate came to Lindy's aid. On that basis, they surmised that Nanoha and Fate are working for DAB.

Nanya, seriously, it's time to let this go. This is nowhere near as compelling a critique as you think it is. There's a reason why even Kaijo has moved past this.

[Keroko]

They saw them make a visit to a mutual friend on friendly terms. They saw them being surprised by their visit. That excludes becoming friends to trick them (and even concluding that would have been a leap of logic requiring the idiot ball, so that'd be trading one plothole for another)

And they knew they were caring people because... well... they showed care for people, even their opponents, continuously. The two of them constantly tried the diplomatic approach.

And this still leaves Signum literally saying "I don't care what you have to say, I'm not going to listen to you" to Fate. That is not Signum at all, that is a Signum clumsily filling a plothole left by the departure of the twins. Because, again, in the series they did almost convince the Wolkenritter to listen to them before the twins intervened, so we know the knights here just leaped to conclusions and then went "Lalalala! I'm not liiisteniiiing!"

Back to Fate, yes she takes a while to show up. And then the entire story revolves around her. She is the one with the deepest background and the most development. Anything Nanoha does from that point on only serves to develop Fate. Nanoha herself barely has any growth at all. She just... gets better at magic. But growth of character? Not much. That didn't really happen until StrikerS.

Screentime alone does not a main character make. Centrality to the plot is another important factor.

StrikerS is the exception, the series where this running theme changed, as the one central to most of the plot for most of the series is Subaru, though Nanoha tagged in halfway to share the lead role (as Fate did in S1).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Apparently so.

My view is that here in this movie, the Wolkenritter had no good options from their perspective. So they basically went with their gut/heart.

Let me be clear - I'm not a big fan of TSAB/DAB. We're talking about an organization that treats a nine year old girl like a serious criminal because said girl is trying to help her mother and save her sister. And then there's some of the dark truths that StrikerS reveals about TSAB/DAB.

If I was one of the Wolkenritter, I don't think I'd feel comfortable trying to get help from them either.

Personally, I think the TSAB is better than most big organizations. Sure, it has bad weeds, but they do get weeded out (especially when our heroines get involved). Remember, idealistic universe. But I won't say your opinion on the TSAB/DAB is wrong, because from one perspective you have a point. Still, it is worth remembering that Zest felt leaving Agito for the TSAB wasn't a bad thing to do.

But this is neither here nor there, because we don't know how much the Wolks know about the TSAB. Even if we presume they did know about the TSAB from previous cycles, it is important to point out that neither Nanoha nor Fate had declared themselves as part of the TSAB. From the Wolks viewpoint, Nanoha and Fate were involved solely because the Wolks drained them from before. They might have suspected revenge, but Nanoha and Fate still wanted to talk and understand.

I'm not saying the Wolks should have talked or explained anything. But given the fate of all previous masters, it should have been quite obvious that they needed help. They needed a new plan. I might have expected such an exchange:

Signum: "Unless we do this, our master will die. This might only extend her life by a little, even if we succeed, but we have no choice."
Nanoha: "Then let's find another path. I won't ask you to trust us or tell us who your master is, but we'll research the book and find another way to save both you and your master."

During the first fight after the upgrade, I can understand them not wanting to hang around, since the TSAB was on them. But there was no excuse on the hospital rooftop. As long as Nanoha and Fate stayed in the jamming field, there was no danger of discovery. Plenty of time. Given that they didn't want to stain Hayate's future with blood, they should have at least offered Nanoha and Fate to become their prisoners.

In the series, the Lieze twins stopped them from talking things out. The movie didn't have them, so Tsuzuki forged ahead and hoped we wouldn't notice. Well, he kinda tried with the NachtWall activation, but that felt fairly arbitrary.

To be fair, I can certainly understand how unnecessary changes that make a plot less tight can be infuriating. Yes, the writing staff made some very questionable changes here.

Also to be fair, this was easily fixable. All he needed to do was to show that the Wolks had bad memories like he did in the series. Have them not remember NachtWall at all. I can't fathom what he was thinking in changing that detail. The Wolks worked just fine as broken programs for antagonists.

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Alternatively it could simply be that when NachtWal shows up, their memories start to fill back in - it's just at the time, the one that was like "Oh right, NachtWal kills EVERYTHING" hadn't come up yet.

Again, though, we have no evidence of this.

And I think this part of the problem. If we have to invent complex reasons for something, then there is a problem. If the movie is a good one, it at least hints at explanations. It doesn't leave it to the audience to invent complex theories for how things happened. If you have to continually fill in gaps, it means one thing: your road has a lot of holes in it.

A's, the series, did that. Vita's simple "It feels like there is something we are forgetting" did that. That's honestly all it would have taken to fix this.

And your theory has to disregard the fact that it was twice shown the Wolks remembered NachtWall. If they truly had forgotten it, then we should have seen Signum go: "What's that? Wait, now I remember! NachtWall! No, wait, stop!"

[Nanya01]

Triple_R, it's just one of the MANY problems this movie has.

Seriously, I have put up plenty of comments about this, start back on page 19, I give a full review of my thoughts as I watched the movie.

Again, only the visuals, the final fight sequence against the core of the Book of Darkness and Lindy's showdown with the Wolkenritter are the ONLY things this movie does better than canon.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING else is barely worth remembering at best (since it was in canon) or lackluster and fails hard (music, fight scenes, badass moments that were taken away from characters, etc)