Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[LevelSeven]

Those 300 clones has direct order to kill Accelerator.

The bug clone has order to search for Accelerator.

If the order is simple and the clone doesn't need to think much about it then its probably won't rebel.

well, i always thought that this part was somehow "empthy"(lack of detailed infos), beetle saved them because.......(yeah, he interpreted his orders different but something BS-like happens and the small network which is only a part of kakine somehow starts to control the whole network)

and later it was said that rikou was the person because she evolves into a level 5....

But for a brain itself to be cloned to increase the processing power?

clones aside, he could simply create a dark matter body with a brain which can calculate millions of times faster than tree diagram...

Your forgetting that dark matter is more like a celluloid being than an actual being.

It can multiply as long as a single cell was left behind. The whole data is already imprinted on it.

And the reason why I said that Kakine is only limited to human knowledge or his human brain processing because that is indeed the way dark kakine thinks. He is simple minded fool who hates Accelerator for being number 1 and him being only number 2 and spare plan. He is just there for petty revenge.

yeah, i agree, accel said something similar: this power is wasted on him

Beetle Kakine actually questions the order and his own reason for being created.

For Kakine's power of dark matter. You will be needed to be open minded and creative because its the power of creation. You will also needed to have lots of knowledge or data to process your power or else you will be limited in your form of creation.

mmmhhh in kakines defense, he was a human until vol.15...
he "slept" until NT5, and was only one single night active, than he was "killed" again by beetle and revived back by gremlin where the tranformed him into a volleyball and used his dark matter to create a holistic esper....

im pretty sure this will be a good reason for the science side to capture gremlin and gain the knowledge about how they created this prototype....

Unlike BS magic which what you imagine can be recreated.

some of the spells they use are really BS, ars magna as example.....

I doubt that will work for Dark Matter because its a creation of Science. It needs data and information for it to work and not just your imagination run wild.

does kakine need a human body or a brain to think like always??

because i dont think that this is the case, which would mean that kakine should have unlimited precessing capabilitys, the reason wh accel cant calculate anymore was because of his brain demage but kakine doesnt need a brain anymore, so logically he shouldnt be bound by the limitations he had as a human..

She can't do that. She just disrupts the network of dark matter.

if she cant affect dark matter directly than im curious because level 5 rikou wouldnt be able to do anything agaisnt accel

mmmhhh, AC thinks that aim stalker as a level 5 could grant dual skill to others right?? unfortunatly she would be a enemy

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

does kakine need a human body or a brain to think like always??

Physical brain no? his whole thought process is ingrain in Dark Matter.

Actually with my reasoning of his brain processing power is limited to his human side is just me trying to explain why he still lost against Accelerator and Mugino. Because really, there isn't an actual explanation in the novel about it.

The only explanation is now Kakine is made up of dark matter.

That's all.

I'm just trying to rationalize his current processing power but truthfully.

He doesn't need of brain. He can create brain plus the whole data is already stored in Dark matter and dark matter can be manipulated by outside source.

Look at vol 22 where the assassins sent by Academy city are using dark matter against Shiage and the others.

Dark matter is pretty malleable and can be manipulated to take form or you can input data from it from outside source.

The only thing that really stops kakine? kamachi himself >_> or his still limited data.

If the Kihara's hook him up into a super computer and inputed lots of data. He can be a powerhouse but just like I said. Kakine has problems with authorities >_> or rather his EGO is too strong to be answering or bow someone. So controlling him will be hard and there is also chances of his own self betraying him.

Its like this

cell 1: leader: I'm the leader you follow me.

cell 10000210412: No way. I'm better YOU FOLLOW ME!

cell 12010313030593694: I'm fit to be leader!

cell 158926968243-68396839: You mongrels. Bow before me

he will have problems in management with his ego for each darn cell.

He can also have problem in having multiple personalities.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

if she cant affect dark matter directly than im curious because level 5 rikou wouldnt be able to do anything agaisnt accel

mmmhhh, AC thinks that aim stalker as a level 5 could grant dual skill to others right?? unfortunatly she would be a enemy

Your mistaking on something. Rikou is still level 4 but the experience in Russia gave her the chance to become level 5 but she is still level 4.

She can't grant dual skill.

Her skill as level 5 is to gave someone a skill by exchanging from others.

She manipulates the AIM field not the person itself which is why she manage to disrupt the Dark Matter network.

As a level 5. Rikou can manipulate AIM fields of espers. She can create level 5 by probably copying the already level 5 AIM field format but that will probably kill the esper if he/she is too weak to support the power plus. You can't really just copy paste someone's personal reality without them being in sync or the receiver is at least someone that can accept the AIM field. If not then he/she's brain will just explode.

Its like blood donors can only receive blood with the same type OR organ transplant.

If Rikou become level 5.

She can turn the power curriculum of academy city upside down.

[LevelSeven]

He can also have problem in having multiple personalities.

i think the same, it is a bit similar with accel, he also wanted to be a hero but choosed to be a villian because of whatever reason he has....
kakine wants to be the ultimate villian or a hero, so after he has a power which lets him create infinite versions of himself he split itself up

their is still the chance that a gay/tsundere/yandere/emo personality pops up and destroy his vendeta plans....

The only explanation is now Kakine is made up of dark matter.

That's all.

I'm just trying to rationalize his current processing power but truthfully.

XD he is to powerful, afterall with infinite matter whih cn be reshaped into every desired form and also defy the rules of physics it is pretty much as broken as someone can go....

one of the things is: the stupidity of kakine (or kamachi simply needed him to loose): a matter which defies physics is also able to go through solid objects, fly without thinking about gravity, cutting through everything, creatig microscobic viruses which can infect the body of someone and kill him, can change every dangerous energy into harmless "lightwaves"....

As a level 5. Rikou can manipulate AIM fields of espers. She can create level 5 by probably copying the already level 5 AIM field format but that will probably kill the esper if he/she is too weak to support the power plus. You can't really just copy paste someone's personal reality without them being in sync or the receiver is at least someone that can accept the AIM field. If not then he/she's brain will just explode.

Its like blood donors can only receive blood with the same type OR organ transplant.

it could be similar with the dark may project, since the PR of espers is also a hugh part of their own self it wouldnt be intelligent to give it to others...

furthermore, without the needed capacity the ability would be useless, im sure 99% of the espers would only be able to use the reflection and this only if they concentrate (which means it is active)....

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

one of the things is: the stupidity of kakine (or kamachi simply needed him to loose): a matter which defies physics is also able to go through solid objects, fly without thinking about gravity, cutting through everything, creatig microscobic viruses which can infect the body of someone and kill him, can change every dangerous energy into harmless "lightwaves"....

Even if this is true (which is should be true) it still useless in front of Accelerator

Those 2 espers are just plain broken that rank 3 and below look weak even though they shouldn't be that weak.

There is still that impassable wall between Rank 1 and 2.

Rank 2 can create all he want but rank 1 will just ignore him >_>

[LevelSeven]

Even if this is true (which is should be true) it still useless in front of Accelerator

Those 2 espers are just plain broken that rank 3 and below look weak even though they shouldn't be that weak.

There is still that impassable wall between Rank 1 and 2.

Rank 2 can create all he want but rank 1 will just ignore him >_>

but this has also to do with accels abilitys which arent really (only) vector manipulation.....

but even if he cant do a sh*t agaisnt accel because he is simply superior to kakine, i think that he really gains to much defeats for someone so powerful....ok he only fought three times in the novels and two of them was curpstomp battles..... at least i hope he will "see" the world of magic after the current arc, maybe kamachi will use him as a one-arc enemy again, hopefully with more feats

[Doom_Paperclip]

All of you are talking about Dark Matter as if it is some sort of every purpose miracle material. It's not, though it comes close. It has limits. Admittedly there aren't very many and they aren't well defined, but they're there. For one, it is inferior to the material that makes up Accelerator's Wings.

Secondly, even for the tasks that Dark Matter can be applied to, Kakine has to first figure out how to do it first. Keep in mind that it took him a relatively long time to discover how to rebuild his body. Most of the questions that follow the format of "why doesn't Kakine do x?" can be answered by "Kakine doesn't know how to do x yet".

[LevelSeven]

Secondly, even for the tasks that Dark Matter can be applied to, Kakine has to first figure out how to do it first. Keep in mind that it took him a relatively long time to discover how to rebuild his body. Most of the questions that follow the format of "why doesn't Kakine do x?" can be answered by "Kakine doesn't know how to do x yet".

this is true, he said it himself that he will be able to create whole PR after enough time

but if wing-matter > dark matter than shouldnt the same also work for accel?? i mean like creating different things, bodys, clones, etc. ??

[Doom_Paperclip]

^The length of time that Accelerator has spent in Winged mode probably doesn't even add up to a single hour in total. He hasn't had the time or need to figure out how to do any of that. With a couple of exceptions, hitting stuff with his Wings has worked out pretty well for him.

[LevelSeven]

^The length of time that Accelerator has spent in Winged mode probably doesn't even add up to a single hour in total. He hasn't had the time or need to figure out how to do any of that. With a couple of exceptions, hitting stuff with his Wings has worked out pretty well for him.

ohhh, wouldnt this make him into a (somehow) dual-skill esper??
so now he is a

Spoiler for to OP:

half-angel dual-skill esper-magician hybrid

even i must say, there needs to be a limit XD

[tsunade666]

didn't I say that for Kakine to grow stronger he needs more data and to learn more, he needs time. Kakine has potential but currently he isn't really that strong but he can grow stronger.

We are debating on his possibilities and potential and what he can do with his dark matter and not his current strengths because currently.

He has lots of faults.

EDIT:

kakine can't become dual skill.

His core power is still dark matter.

But who is stopping him for creating a bug that shoots fire, lightning or ice. Or bug that has control over gravity? nothing as long as he has information and data on how he will do it.

Just like what I said about magicians being BS that their power is what they imagine can become true.

kakine is limited to what he knows.

He can't create on something he doesn't know

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for dark matter speculations:

didn't I say that for Kakine to grow stronger he needs more data and to learn more, he needs time. Kakine has potential but currently he isn't really that strong but he can grow stronger.

We are debating on his possibilities and potential and what he can do with his dark matter and not his current strengths because currently.

He has lots of faults.

we didnt do something else right?

kakine can't become dual skill.

His core power is still dark matter.

this is true but it is similar with accels aerokinesis, he dont really have that ability but he "mimicks" it by using his ability in a other way...
and dark matter could create PR's which would be like in a databse system:

1. Dark Matter
1,1. Dark Matter Versions
1,1,1,1. Dark Matter, Version: Human Body
1,1,1,2. Dark Matter, Version: Beetle
1,1,1,3. Dark Matter, Version: Dragonfly
1,1,2. Dark Matter Versions: Not Existing Beings
1,1,2,1. Dark Matter, Version: Loch Ness
etc.etc.
etc.etc.
etc.etc.
a,b,c,d,f,g. Dark Matter Personal Realitys
a,b,c,d,f,g,h. Dark Matter Equal Speed
a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h+1. Dark Matter Meltdowner
etc.etc.

this would be a hell of a databse but everything would only run under the one ability, dark matter....

Just like what I said about magicians being BS that their power is what they imagine can become true.

kakine is limited to what he knows.

He can't create on something he doesn't know

experience, thhis is what he needs, acqua wasnt so powerful only because of being a double-saint, his years on the battlefield gaved him many knowledge about his strength, limitation, range, weakness, etc.

what accel and kakine are needing is experience in battles whith equally strong or stronger enemys.....unfortunatly for them it is really hard to find such beings

EDIT: this is from the toaru wiki, from one of the comments, it sounds interesting what do you guys think....

Spoiler for tttooooo long:

HERE IS A SMALL PART FROM WIKIPEDIA ABOUT NEPHILIMS:

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning of Nephilim as "giants."Many suggested interpretations are based on the assumption that the word is a derivative of Hebrew verbal root n-ph-l "fall." Robert Baker Girdlestone argued the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem, implying that the Nephilim are to be perceived as "those that cause others to fall down." Adam Clarke took it as passive, "fallen," "apostates." Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form "ones who have fallen," equivalent grammatically to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e., overseer), asir, "one who is bound," (i.e., prisoner) etc. .According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon, the basic etymology of the word Nephilim is "dub[ious]," and various suggested interpretations are "all very precarious."

The majority of ancient biblical versions, including the Septuagint, Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos and Targum Neofiti, interpret the word to mean "giants." Symmachus translates it as "the violent ones" (accel and kakine are violent)and Aquila's translation has been interpreted to mean either "the fallen ones" or "the ones falling [upon their enemies]."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

THIS IS FROM VOL.4 SUB.14:

The flesh-colored remains scattered about had been too far destroyed from their base form to be turned into anything else.

Also, Marian’s territory as a Dvergr was living bodies.

Manipulating the dead was the territory of the gods or the giants.

She could only use the blood and fat that left the human body for the dozen or so seconds until they “died”.

maybe a small forshadowing...

[Doom_Paperclip]

^Giants within that context almost certainly meant Norse Giants, the enemies of the Aesir. I doubt your speculation will bear fruit. Mind you, Kakine can produce fakes of dead people.

As for branching out Dark Matter to reproduce other abilities, it might be feasible, but why? The power he already has is already #2. Reproducing other abilities would be like having the Death Star and using it as a power source to fire a stun gun.

[LevelSeven]

Reproducing other abilities would be like having the Death Star and using it as a power source to fire a stun gun.

using mental out and controlling others??
using meltdowner as instant kill for small fries??

gaining accels ability and r*ping the whole earth with thousands of clones who can manipulate vectors too??

or simply wanting to show them that he is THE REAL DEAL, given his personality i think he would do it only because it is fun and since he is really hard to kill, he is bored....

but this is also only a "which potential could kakine have??" discussion, i doubt that we will see this in the novel, at least if yes than he would be the enemy after aleister, so as a little present for the fans from kamachi

^Giants within that context almost certainly meant Norse Giants, the enemies of the Aesir. I doubt your speculation will bear fruit. Mind you, Kakine can produce fakes of dead people.

well, norse mythology is older than christian right?? than it is a possibility that the gods of the norse people was turned into fairies and that the gaints was turned into angels through the hugh amount of time.....

so their could be a very real connection between them

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

Reproducing other abilities would be like having the Death Star and using it as a power source to fire a stun gun.

Ironically good analogy, there are so many goals you can achieve with the help of a stun gun that you can't with the Death Star (like incapacitating someone with non-lethal means). I can even use that energy to supply power for my PC, my smartphone and everything else in my house ... or the whole planet.
Or even better : a time machine.

[Doom_Paperclip]

If we're talking about imitating other powers, then Accelerator should be a much better candidate. He controls vectors and vectors are pretty much involved in nearly everything.

The thing is, adapting your power to make more specific uses of it is hard. Trying to replicate testament's functions used up all of non-brain damaged Accelerator's processing power. I doubt that Kakine would find it any easier. Most of the powers that would be useful to him on top of Dark Matter, like Mental Out, are probably out of his reach.

[LevelSeven]

^ the problem is that kakine dont have or need a brain which makes his calculations....

hence he could create brains and put them on the street, in rooms etc. etc. and he would have a unlimited calculation network which is useless for him since he doesnt have the restrictions accel has...

i find the answer about why kakine cant defeat accel only because he has lower calculate ability BS, good it worked for their first fight in vol. 15 but after that he should have a unlimited mind since he dont even have/need a brain for calculation, he is in the shape of a beetle the same as he was in the shape of a human....

i dont think that the answer with being restricted through the capacity of his brain is a limitation for him anymore....

and furthermore, accel used this application for the first time in his life, it is like driving a bike, the first time you can do it, you can drive a bike but you are still unexperienced, after some time you can do it without even noticing it, it works automatic (the same with a car)....

magical abilitys would be like training his body for a Mr. universe show, if the people stop to train (or use their magical abilitys) they "loose" it with the time....

even if this wasnt necassary it is still a interesting comparison, one time mastering and than using it everytime they want and the other is connected with training and without training a long time they loose their abilitys....

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

well, norse mythology is older than christian right?? than it is a possibility that the gods of the norse people was turned into fairies and thathe gaints was turned into angels through the hugh amount of time.....

As someone who is fascinated by mythologies from all around the world, do know that you just gave my eyes cancer, LevelSeven.

No, Norse mythology as we know it (as in, the pantheon and cosmology) is not older than Christianity. At best, you could say that its gods, each individually, are older than its mythology itself. Gods like Odin or Thor or Frey were worshipped as local deities, long before being part of a pantheon, and it has been speculated that only chieftains and other wealthy people held faith in the Æsir, while the common farmers believed in land spirits such as trolls and giants. Beliefs in Norse gods is older than Christianity, but the mythology itself as we know it isn't.

And before someone points it out, yes, Norse is a branch of the Proto-Indo-European mythological tradition, which also spawned the Celtic and Greek pantheons, but by that same token, we can use Judaism to make Christianity even older.

And even if Norse mythology was older than Christianity, Nephilim are from Jewish mythology, which is considerably older than the 2. Furthermore, the Bible is very hush-hush on what the Nephilim actually were. Some translations have "heroes" or "famous men" instead of "giants".

That's why that half-angel/nephilim theory (sometimes it's Accelerator, other times it was him and Kakine) sounded stupid the first time I saw it on the wiki, and it still does (and I'm pretty sure that guy was blasted as well).

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

^ the problem is that kakine dont have or need a brain which makes his calculations....

Excuse me, please remind me, how and thanks to what did Kakine come back to life again?

[LevelSeven]

Excuse me, please remind me, how and thanks to what did Kakine come back to life again?

For his revivel, he dont need a brain or his human bodyparts to exist, the limitation of a brain doesnt work on him anymore.....
And if he needs a brain to calculate (which isnt true), he could create his dark matter body with a brain faster than tree diagram.....

[Doom_Paperclip]

At what point does it say that Kakine no longer needs a brain? As I understand it, he no longer needs his original brain, but he still needs his Dark Matter bodies to carry a Dark Matter brain. As for making that brain superior to Tree Diagram, there are two problems with that.

The first is an issue of how. How exactly do you make a brain smarter or faster? Simply making your brain bigger is not enough, otherwise whales would be smarter than people. This is a problem that modern day have yet to solve, but since AC science can produce Espers and control the development of their calculation abilities, we can assume that AC scientists have cracked it. Even so, would Kakine have been taught such knowledge? AC is very paranoid about keeping their tech exclusive and this is especially true for their Espers. A simple student, even a Level 5 in service to the Dark Side, would have no reason to know all that.

The second is a fundamental limit of all Espers. An Esper's powers stem from their personal reality, which means that ultimately their abilities are inextricably tied to their self-image. This can be seen from the fact that Rensa can hijack Esper powers by imitating their internal body structure. It can also be seen from the fact that, despite being able to take on any number of forms, the shape that Kakine has the easiest time creating and the form that has the strongest Dark Matter ability is always a copy of his original body. If Kakine were to unnaturally force his brain power up, that would bring him farther away from his original specs and paradoxically make him worse at using Dark Matter.

As an aside, what makes you believe that Kakine could cast magic unharmed? When Kuroyoru Umidori tried her hand at refining mana in Volume NT3 the destruction caused by the rejection spread even to perfectly inorganic substances as well. This proves that being unable to cast magic is an issue for all beings with AIM, regardless of what their bodies are made of.

[tsunade666]

I think Kakine casting magic is much worse than Umidori or Accelerator or any esper at all.

His body is dark matter. It oozing of AIM. Its a body of AIM >__> practically. That sealed his fate of not using magic.