2008-12-17, 00:41 | Link #1781 | ||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Aah, combined arms pincer tactics. While the majority of people that aren't good or just disinterested at science fires suppression at me for being too rigorous, an Engineer goes at me for not being rigorous enough! At least the engineer is coming in the better direction IMO so I will answer him first.
But then, it may just be an opportunity attack. Quote:
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OF course, in any particular scene, the author may INDEED be trying to screw us for reasons that are ultimately only known to him. That's an accepted risk. However, if you say that, then the scene cannot be used at ALL. Yet this is NOT what happens. People will say "Character X is shooting at a long range" based on scenes, but how can they be sure of this unless they think the author isn't trying to screw them? Only AFTER they are told that it really shows a short range do they say they can't. I wasn't in engineering in University, Evangelion, but I don't think there is any field of science, hard or soft, experimental or observational heavy, that says it is OK to dismiss a result on the sole basis of it not being to your hopes - in fact, that would be dogma and the antithesis of science. Quote:
Of course, IDEALLY you would use multiple fixed cameras set at normal angles, but get used to the observational sciences rather than the experimental sciences - once you get away from physics or chemistry, it gets increasingly harder to get the experiments that you describe. Sometimes, the mere attempt to get everything controlled disrupts or ignores other, more important factors until they are at settings completely unrelated to reality and thus the relevance of the test is destroyed - this is particularly true in psychology, and to a lesser extent medicine and zoology. Quote:
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And there is no need to reconcile. Sturm Falken is just a fast attack? Why do you have more trouble than me in believing that magical attacks can vary in speed? Quote:
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2008-12-17, 00:58 | Link #1782 | ||||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Really, you're forever beating this dead horse. You might as well realise that nobody really cares. And you're focusing on trees instead of the forest again, with Lowe's term of millimetric precision. You can claim all you like that you're never going to get that sort of precision, but when you pull out calculations to 2 decimal points, one has to wonder. Quote:
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Though in all honesty, I have to point out that this thread has been a source of nonstop laughter to me for the last 24 hours.
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2008-12-17, 02:37 | Link #1783 | |||||||||||||
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2) Considering my reaction, has the possibility that I have actually looked at this in the past (in fact, IIRC I was the first to bring it up) and concluded it was supersonic occurred to you? You know me - when I agree it is supersonic, it won't be by quick glimpse. The frame analysis must have been done sometime in the past and the combination of ranging and time fo flight can support a supersonic (it wasn't quite fast enough to be unambigiously supersonic on those two alone but the boom and text clinched it). "Strangely", it is just about the only analyses that was not contended, despite the fact it was conducted using the exact same principles as the rest - the only thing that's different is that the outcome was "nice." 3) Besides, if I hadn't done the analysis, it can't turn out different. In that event, I have no reason to doubt the text. I might tend to prioritize pictures over text, for reasons I've mentioned before (do a search), but it doesn't mean the text is useless. Quote:
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Getting a calculator that does allow you to enter air resistance, and calibrating it so its terminal velocity is about 55 (actually I settled for ~53.3), to get to ~58m altitude, at a 85 degree initial angle of "launch" (a very high angle is chosen because Teana apparently didn't fly very far horizontally), Subaru will have to launch her at ~38m/s instead of 34. This will slightly increase the force she can apply (about 12%), but hardly enough to make a difference in the conclusion. As for rotation, I doubt Teana would be spinning around fast enough to make a real difference. Quote:
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2008-12-17, 06:32 | Link #1784 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ark, but that's in the real world, where physics are a constant. -It ain't so in an anime-.
Even little things might not be consistent. How wide is that door? Is it the same width the next time you see it? Maybe, maybe not. You can bet it'll get a little narrower if the joke is that two people try to go through it at once. ;p It doesn't do any good to say "well, in the real world" when we're measuring something that is, at heart, an unreal world. It doesn't have to be consistent. It doesn't have to conform to concepts of reality for time, space, distance, what have you. And not only that, but it doesn't have to depart from them "due to the magic"; the very nature of anime as a visual storytelling medium is going to play hob with your calculations. This isn't even getting into things that are tropes of the genre, and one of them is that people get to sit there and call out their attacks. Even if you'd expect Fate and Nanoha to cast spells at each other simultaneously, in the anime they'll alternate because it's better to hear one at a time than two. |
2008-12-17, 08:33 | Link #1785 | |||||||
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That these same guys tend to rumble about "author's intent" or "premise" is ... funny. The author went to every effort to see to it they'll NEVER have to face up to such scenarios (they even make a mass weapon ban and the "cheaters" don't use the HV weapons), and then we put them into it. Then they don't accept it when a conclusion says they'll lose, or even when they'll have to put some brains together to win. Quote:
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2008-12-17, 11:07 | Link #1786 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Just one thing I want to point out, with regards to realism, physics, and storytelling:
So long as the story entertains and you make what you write plausible and believable, you can get away with almost anything. I've spent the last 5 hours getting chewed out. I am in no mood for any of this shit.
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2008-12-18, 11:30 | Link #1789 |
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Ark, just curious, have you nothing more to say about alternative deployments for ep16-17? I'm still waiting for you to rip into my last response almost 2 days ago.
I've been doing some thinking, and I think that a better deployment at GFHQ actually risks losing Subaru in addition to Ginga and serious injuries to Tia, Erio and Caro. one way or another, Jail's forces are going to move in on Ginga and/or Subaru. Chances are, they would prefer to isolate one then gang up on her. Even in your best case scenario with everyone outside the building and Ginga with them. All 3 Aces and vice captains will be busy engaging threats, so the Forwards will have to deal with this threat on their own. This time, there will be no option to disengage. They'll be worn down until they're combat ineffective. Then, the Nakajimas will be captured. Even if Ginga is with the 4 of them, it won't be enough. We know Ginga didn't use her IS even when she was outnumbered (if she did, it didn't help) so she probably won't use it in this scenario. If she's with Subaru, they'll both be equally worn at the end of the battle. Even if Subaru uses her IS when Ginga goes down, she might not have enough combat ability left to stop the Cyborgs. End result, both Type-0s are captured and the other Forwards are too crippled to do anything by then. This has further consequences for the defense ar RF6 base. If Caro goes down at GFHQ, she won't be there to summon Voltaire to sweep the drones away. There probably won't be anything left to rebuild, this time. If Caro and Erio return to the base as in the episode (you think they'll let Caro return on her own?), then Tia will be on her own with the Nakajima sisters. They'll likely go down even faster. As you can see, even a better deployment can lead to a worse outcome for RF6. |
2008-12-18, 13:40 | Link #1790 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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There's not a whole lot of point discussing deployment patterns for 16-17. All we can do is stipulate "putting aces on security and then disarming them is really dumb". I can accept "really dumb" for a plot reason - most plausible would be tradition - but it's harder to swallow simply "because the aces would wipe the floor with the Numbers otherwise, so they had to disarm them somehow". That's bad writing, when you have an opportunity to explain something that looks dumb and it doesn't occur to you that you should do so.
Within those confines, it's tough to say. On paper, sure, longer engagement of Subaru vs. Numbers means the Numbers have a greater opportunity to inflict casualties. On the other hand, Teana's obviously smarter than a number of the Numbers, and managed to counter three of them on her own under much worse conditions. Tea plus Subaru plus Ginga? That's plausibly a victory scenario for the Bureau, though, since we know that the HQ attack was along the nature of a huge feint, it's likely that against determined opposition the Numbers would have withdrawn rather than slugged it out. (Also, no downed Ginga means no berserker mode IS-using Subaru, which means that Cinque probably gets away operational. That's bad - Cinque was a lot more useful to the Numbers than Ginga was to the Bureau...) But the Bureau's deployment plans are inscrutably bad for the whole show, so why should 16-17 be any different? Especially when we're talking about a civilization with access to magical transportation technology; couldn't they have been pulling the non-combatants out of RF6 while the battle went on? No, because for whatever bizarro reason, they don't keep any ships near their freakin' administrative capital. Sigh... You gotta wonder how much actual importance they attach to Mid. It's NOT the Navy's primary base, okay, I can buy that. (Britain and Scapa Flow?) But if your navy isn't in position to intervene concerning direct attacks on your homeworld... That would be a big board of inquiry question for the aftermath. Of course it's always possible that Regius was playing administrative games, and the reason there were no ships available was that his Einherjar had been tasked with local defense instead. But we can't blame Regius for every dumb thing the TSAB does... |
2008-12-19, 04:20 | Link #1791 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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[quote]Nothing wrong with that idea, but that doesn't mean it's right one or the only one. My idea is more like a tank with a fixed flow faucet, it doesn't matter how much water (energy) is in the tank, the faucet releases the same amount to the familiar. Why's that any more difficult? Without claiming to be an expert in plumbing or fluid dynamics, if faucets are so fixed-flow, why the f*ck does the flow weaken and I nearly get scalded (the water heater has to heat less water as the flow reduced, so the water took a hike in temperature) everytime my mother tries to use the other shower simultaneously? Actually, that was my previous apartment - it is better in my current one. The reason why faucets are relatively stable despite pressure changes to a point is due to the choked flow effect. However, to achieve this effect, the flow demanded by the faucet must be only a relatively small percentage of the available flow. Otherwise, you wind up like my old shower, or my new shower when my building's plumbing system developed a partial blockage somewhere a few weeks ago - getting enough water to wash hair was a real struggle that day... In other words, such an architecture can only be employed without additional complexity IF the flow to the familiar is a small percentage (a housetap as opposed to the total water flow and pressure provided by the building's plumbing system). As your system depressurizes from S+ to AA, can you really say that your familiar won't lose pressure in her "faucet"? A temporary drop (say in combat) can be buffered by reserves, but when you just cut like ~90% of your regular pressure on a prolonged basis... Even if you re-ADJUST your faucet to a wider setting to compensate, the familiar is STILL left more vulnerable to changes in your flow (say when you open your faucet wide to fire a AA blast) when it is sucking off your limited flow instead of your pre-limited flow since it is so much closer to the point when flow becomes unchoked. There are such things as reserves, but is this really such a good idea compared to just giving him the power pre-limited? Familiars, as you mention, aren't cheap. Quote:
Either Mana Tank-->Familiar's Independent Faucet Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Limiter Faucet (this is the configuration that provides the most stable power of the reviewed options for your familiar - unless the tank really runs dry your familiar should receive power through its independent link. It also allows the potential for a more powerful familiar. Say you can be AAA, she can be AAA simultaneously because you are sharing off the same tank from separate faucets allowing both to draw up to Choke-Flow for their respective faucets instead of sharing one faucet - you'll spend the tank faster when this happens but the flow is there until the tank starts to run dry - you don't have a prayer of this in the second configuration.) OR Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Familiar Sub-Faucet->Limiter Faucet (this configuration will provide stable power to your familiar in the Limited Configuration, but without the limiter faucet, there's a chance that a sudden full power strike will result in a short term power "brownout" due to depressurization. The familiar has reserves but this is still something that can be avoided). instead of Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Limiter Faucet->Familiar Sub-Faucet (what are you thinking) Frankly, except for the trust thing (now who's smearing the TSAB, and does the TSAB want to expose its distrust that openly - even Regius keeps quiet about his personal opinions!), I don't see why it shouldn't be one of the former instead of the latter. Quote:
Fate should be doing it herself, but this is exactly what we are discussing. Quote:
Generally, you want to improve your CoF even for a brief period, because you can then save ammunition in the back end - the Soviets had entire tables that estimate how many shells you could save while reaching destruction norms by pouring on the shells fast. The fact she's not exploiting is due to 2 reasons. 1) Stupidity. 2) The murderous drain of the LB is so great she was willing to risk burning more ammo rather than blow out her plant. Her victory was fast, but so's that of a 100m sprinter. It was not necessarily easy. Quote:
The principle of convoying assumes that, given that a bunch of "lambs" are going to make their way through a danger zone, perhaps for strategic reasons (transport of war materials, say) or tactical (because a position not very far away is much more defensible - as I'll argue is the case here), with the protection of limited escort assets, it is safer for them to go through as an escorted cluster even at a lower speed than everyone making their own way. The drones were going to crowd Shamal and Zafira and any other guys I can throw into the field anyway, so that whole AMF thing is a done deal. Depending on when they can run, they'll be briefly in more danger, but safer once they hit the field. Quote:
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Anyway, a long time means every phase lengthens, including the warning phase as Otto and Deed comes in. As that time lengthens, time available to evac lengthens, and it favors my proposal Quote:
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Also, see above. They don't even know Vivio is a target. Otherwise, it is even less forgivable for them not to have taken more security measures, like the ones ATC suggested, so this is not a valid point to use in the security computation. Also, again, a long scenario will allow them to take their time evacuating and hiding w/o coming under observation and fire, thus they can hide Vivio in a larger "bush". Quote:
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Besides, as I've argued previously, while against the entire spectrum of attacks the shield is probably more effective, against AMF enemies (which RF6 faces a whole lot), the equation would change, due to their poor (non-existent?) performance against pseudomatter and the increased depth, which ensures even if they melt through they have to keep repeating the procedure. So instead you have the field pull double-duty. Quote:
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2008-12-19, 05:32 | Link #1792 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ark, Bureau forces couldn't protect the automated defenses or reactors of GFHQ, even when they were on alert for trouble and with their forces augmented (but not really, as disarmed bodyguards don' really count, huh...) Even so, there was plenty of staff there besides the Forwards.
And not only did the Numbers succeed in their attack, they completed more or less every objective they had -without even killing anyone-. That's not something you can do if you're striking a target that's hardened to the utmost of their capability. Jail pulled his punch and still one-shot KOed a general HQ! Even though it was a feint - or rather, especially because it was a feint, because that implies he managed it with only a fraction of his force. I can't understand why there would be anything funny or tricksy that the RF6 guys could do, that wasn't also available to GHQ, especially since RF6 isn't really a high-value target aside from its personnel, whereas GHQ is -always- a target. |
2008-12-19, 07:36 | Link #1793 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Second, considering they already were inside the network, unless the training field is completely isolated they don't even need to do as much, if anything they can just querry the password from the inside out. If the training field isn't isolated, then they already are inside and don't even need to query, they only need to shut it down. This, of course, doesn't take into account the aforementioned loss of time by having to escort a group of civilians under attack. Even if they do evac as soon as the alarm sounds, they still will have to defend the civilians from the drones. And as mentioned, when Aina appears carrying Vivio, one can expect Otto and Deed to show up much faster. |
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2008-12-19, 09:11 | Link #1794 | ||||||||||||
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And even if Uno and Quattro got some special techniques that will allow them to defy the known principles of cryptography and decrypt properly done crypts in seconds, the defense team won't know about that and probably won't compute on that. So the scene might be that they try, but somehow Uno and Quattro do it. The official explanation (from the Magical Dictionary) is that either Sein and Cinque, who had infiltrated inside, got the key or they had received "prior information" to make this hacking so easy. Since as far as we know that did not happen to RF6 at least... Quote:
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In the real attack, Otto and Deed know Vivio is somewhere in the building, but they were in no apparent hurry. They waited till Shamal and Zafira were worn, moved in to take them out, then they waited for the search instead of rushing in to help. If anything, if they actually SEE Vivio, they might actually relax thinking they can get her anytime and just wait for all the drones to finish attacking ... etc. Quote:
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Which is why the complaints, from a year ago to now, have generally focused on effort, on things that they did not do that might have made a difference. And any defendant tries to prove that the proposed effort is infeasible or unreasonable. Quote:
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Considering that ultimately, while it was very tactically stupid, they DID manage to finish their later mission while split up. And even the Numbers themselves admit the Forwards can be relatively impressive if they keep their Combined Arms balance, which is why their Ep21 plan involved working hard to split them up. So there seems little justification in your statement up there like their loss is a done deal. The big unknown, IMO here is Cinque. She managed to defeat Zest at the cost of her eye, though we saw absolutely no other details. She also managed to put damage onto Subaru that would likely have caused most people to have collapsed despite barriers - frankly, she and Subaru were about one attack from finishing off each other - had Cinque gotten in an extra attack at the start instead of on the floor, Subaru probably will have accumulated enough "damage points" to go down entirely regardless of her berserk state. It is probably safe to assume, thus, that Cinque's attack is very good - get hit by those Rumble Detonators, and the limited evidence suggests even an S will be badly hurt. Equally, from what very little we can see of her style, she is not a very maneuverable fighter - she didn't use maneuver AT ALL against Subaru even though she wasn't moving all that quickly. From that we can infer that a faster, more maneuverable fighter like Erio may be able to force her onto the defensive - and she doesn't seem able to attack and defend at the same time, thus suppressing those RDs. Given all this, I see no reason to say that it is some kind of done deal for the Forwards to lose. In fact, overall, I figure they have a fair chance. Quote:
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2008-12-20, 12:01 | Link #1795 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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How about changing concepts? What if it's the recepticle in the familiar that controls the flow? What if it's designed only to accept x units of energy, so excess stays with the master? Quote:
We've been arguing over analogies, do you have anything more concrete than that? Quote:
And if the Bureau did do something like this, you can bet Arf won't be anywhere near RF6 to support it in case of an attack. If they did that, they might as well remove Fate's limiter and put Arf in RF6, since that defeats the whole point of the allocation system. So, if limiters work the way you say they must and Arf returns to the Bureau. She still won't be available to defend RF6 in the event of an attack. Quote:
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BTW, even if they did that, they'd still get hit. Jail's getting his prizes that day and he has enough resources to do it. Quote:
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2008-12-22, 00:52 | Link #1796 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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As to whether something similar to pressure and choked flow occurs, by the way, we have limited evidence that it does. Let's go back to Ep9 of the original (you know, the one where they split the JSes b/w them). Fate expended a large percentage of her "tank" to blast the water with lightning, and thereafter she had trouble even flying. This indicates that below a certain percentage (mana pressure), channelable flow is reduced drastically. But it is clearly not a unchoked flow system (near 1:1 correlation between pressure and power) across the pressure range, because Nanoha was apparently able to rejuvenate Fate by using only a fraction of her reserves, WITHOUT affecting her own output or even feeling particular fatigue. Given their magical capacities are broadly comparable, most probably, Nanoha recharged Fate's "mana tank" pressures until they were above the limits of choked flow, restoring her ability to fire at (or nearly at) full power, without depleting her own beyond that point. Aah, the fun of magical plumbing! Quote:
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Actually, Soviet destruction norms tend to be higher than American (annihilate/destroy is >60% destruction vs 30% and suppression is 30% to 10%). Thus it was the butt of certain tasteless American jokes about how Russian fire destruction guarantee (the latter apparently also being a quirk of the Russian word obpeschenie (sp?), which can mean support, but also guarantee) maneuver, while American fire support support maneuver. The point here anyway is that under normal conditions, YES, she would have used the LB and she'll have saved power on the back end. That she didn't, assuming it wasn't because of idiocy, is because of strains so high the benefits of the rule dissolve. Quote:
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[quot]We keep trying to tell you, the field is not a short distance away! Check eps3, 8, 16 and a few others to get a sense of the field's location relative to the base buildings. Put those calculation skills that you're so proud of to use and give us the distance from the buildings to the field. First, there's open ground to the stairs, there's got to be two or three hundred meters of that. Then there's the narrow causeway from the bottom of the stairs to the field itself, which appears to be another hundred meters or two. Heck, if Jail's forces clue in to where RF6's personnel are trying to flee to, they could just blow that causeway and deny it to them. Once hostiles are detected approching the base, what defenders will assume that said hostiles won't attack anyone they see?[/quote] OK, let's say it is 500m. Let's say they average 100 meters per minute, one sixth of the rate of a world class runner and HALF the speed of a Soviet assault drill (which is about 200 meters per minute, NOT on a nice paved causeway, and these drills may include dismounts so the dismounts presumably can run a few hundred meters at that speed - I'm not demanding any insane rates of advance here). It can be done in 5 minutes of exposure. If you think that they are going to hold out for like 2 hours in the original, surely, they can manage 5 minutes of this. As I said, short scenarios are actually more favorable for your argument in this overall. Blow the causeway. Mmm, they can try, but seeing that even Otto didn't manage to cause a lot of damage to that highway surface in Ep21 (I still remember my groan at that scene), one must wonder whether they can do so. Quote:
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And again, the fact RF6 does not recognize the importance of Vivio means whatever they are thinking, it won't be, "If we let them see Vivio, they'll all come hell for broke just for her." Quote:
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If anything, the idea that Otto and Deed took a bit of time to fly over has limited support in that Griffiths actually tried calling for help. We all know the TSAB's response times, and they won't get any better in the confusion of an attack vs GF HQ. So, if Griffiths isn't just calling for help for show, one has to assume there is a nice long time (certainly more than ~5 minutes) before they get hit. That limited support, while thin, is more than what Shamal and Zafira get. So, if we are going to do this timecut extension thing at all, the only reasonably dispute-free and fair way is to assume all parts expanded more or less equally. You want to say Z&S fought for 20 minutes instead of 10, fine but then O&D took 4 minutes to arrive instead of 2. Personally, I prefer just using the provided timings, even though actually that's bad for my idea. Quote:
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Anyway, I don't mind the non-support pillar theory too, but Keroko insisted otherwise - that's when it evolved to these soft outside, hard at heart pillars. Not to mention that even a non-support pillar might want some strength from a hard core. Quote:
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As for the pseudomatter "multitool", wasn't that called a Device? Quote:
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2008-12-22, 14:42 | Link #1797 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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If Arf is a TSAB trooper/officer, then RF6 would most definitely not have control of her deployments while RF6 is in existence and the limiters are in effect. Rank allocations and all that, remember? Therefore Arf will most certainly not be available to help out when the base comes under attack. If Arf is not in the TSAB, then there's no reason for the TSAB to allow her to be more powerful than Fate, is there? After all, that power isn't doing them any good anyway. You position depends on Arf being unlimited while Fate is and somehow being near RF6 when the attack goes down. Arf can't do any good unless both those conditions are fulfilled. Quote:
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What defender would assume they had minutes to shift positions when hostiles are also minutes away? If the hostiles were hours or days away, maybe, but minutes would be too close to call. Quote:
Second, do remember than magic can have limited (even no) physical destructiveness. Although I have no idea why she would use purely magical damage in that attack, it's not an impossibility. Besides, if Otto's not enough, have Lutecia throw in a Jiraioh to shake it to pieces. Quote:
Actually I'm wondering how much of a fight did Shamal and Zafira put up in ep17 anyway. When you see them, they're already on their knees and drones are even inside the building already. Quote:
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Two, let's assume they planned on using the field all along. Then its command systems may be protected by anti tampering systems. Why, the defenders may even be able to fend off hack attacks while within the field. But remember, Jail somehow had detailed knowledge on GFHQ's defenses, why won't he he have the same for RF6? He did a lot of planning for his attacks that day, why would he have only details on one of his two targets but not the other? If he does have the details for RF6's defenses, then the Cyborgs would have all they need to know to shut down the field. There's also the fact that the generator for the field would be emitting a huge signature, wherever it is. They can track that down and destroy it. Even if it's buried and sealed (which would make it impossible to maintain, highly unlikely) They can send Sein to sabotage it. At worse, they can have Sein bring Clinque to blow it up, even if the generator was under the field. That would probably zero out Jail's chances of catching a Type-0, but Vivio is a bigger target. Compromises. Even if they somehow make it into the field and hide before any hostiles arrive, Lutecia can remote summon drones all over the field to quickly search for the people. They'll quickly narrow down locations because either there will be resistance in those places, or the people are undefended while the defenders are putting up a decoy defense elsewhere. Your position requires that Jail's forces have no way of disabling the field, a tough claim considering how throughly they disabled GFHQ. You also assume they can reach the field quickly through hostile fire, even possibly unimpeded, but there's no way they can have enough time to get anywhere near the field before coming under attack. Quote:
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2008-12-23, 08:59 | Link #1798 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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1) Put Arf in random HQ TSAB unit. 2) Get friend (Nakajima, the Principal, Acous ... don't they have OTHER friends as well?) to go ask for her in a similar vein Nanoha and Vita asked for Subaru and Teana. Since Arf is relatively elite in the mage rankings, the request would be reasonable. 3) Since the uppers are their friends, this transfer will be easily and quietly managed. 4) Arf stands by. In the meantime, she's useful to whatever unit she's been attached to. Quote:
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Going by this, it says that the building is too extended a front to protect properly. It is not more defensible overall when your enemies pour around you and enter the building to slaughter. You sure they might not have done better protecting a smaller, actually defensible area? Quote:
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And they were pretty much defenseless anyway once Shamal and Zafira were out of it. Any survivability they bought is entirely due to the lack of enthusiasm on Otto and Deed's part. Quote:
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2) Since we are discussing using it as a makeshift defensive system, let's go for the next paragraph. If this contingency was not studied beforehand, this says something too. Quote:
1) GFHQ was there for a very long time; RF6 for a few months. 2) GFHQ was run by his friends, he has far fewer friends that can help him with RF6. 3) GFHQ was ground reconnoitered by Sein and Cinque (I suspect a lot of the info really came through this channel). As far as we know, he didn't do a reconaissance on RF6. Quote:
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2) She had the right to do that with the building, and no matter how many drones she can bring to search, chances are better the larger the area is. Quote:
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2008-12-23, 23:01 | Link #1799 | |||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Assumption: A reservoir of sufficient size relative to the things drawing upon it that the effect either has on the others ability to draw energy is negligible. He may not have articulated it as well as could be done, but the meaning was clear. Quote:
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Without valid assumptions defining a valid model all your doing with equations is showing you're willing to flout GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). They say that if you start out with an invalid assumption you can prove anything for a reason, sir. If you want to draw conclusions on behavior you need to be vastly more rigorous, and humble then what this quote shows. Quote:
A strike package needs to designed to go through a targets defenses and accomplish an objective. Thoe more defenses they have to deal with the more resources, and resources to support those resources they will require. This adds an extra layer of discouragement to attack due to requiring more resources. In practice SAMs and AA fire that has forced aircraft to waste too much fuel avoiding to get to the target and back safely is also a implementation of the principle. Fortifications don't make a peaceful populace exactly have the warm fuzzies about you, which is a concern regarding having a base, period. Plus there's resource concerns for the defender and the inevitable problem that if writers make a place impenetratable, they can't exactly have it attacked now can they? Are you arguing it was a bad story device and poorly implemented? Again if there's a question, explain. I had to check, because I thought you were talking about Shoot and Scoot with it phrased like that. Fire and Maneuver involves suppression fire to keep the enemies head down due to threat they'll be a head shorter if they don't, while you send other parts of your squad into a position to take the guy out. You're talking about doing this with two people, that aren't exactly up to snuff and are having to cover a large retreat, and you see no issues with that? Do we fight wars as individuals, sir? Quote:
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2008-12-23, 23:53 | Link #1800 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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One has to remember that when it comes to most freedoms, a free government can generally put tighter limits on its own personnel than to civvies. Also, at least publicly, even the limiters on personnel are not a control or security measure, but as a means to partially circumvent rules that are meant to ensure equitable distribution of talent among units, and are not a common measure. If anything, they are arguably employed as an "anti-control" device in a sense. So why would they shackle one on Arf? I'm not saying they can't (probably citing "security" or something), but the very act will say something about the Bureau itself, and there is no evidence (IMO) they'll do so. Quote:
However, my opponent seemed to want to add timecuts to extend the fight. Such things are of course, not justified, add un-necessary complexity, destroy the chances of making an accurate model ... etc, as you point out. Still, I'm pointing out here if he wants to add timecuts, he can't just add time to the parts he wants and disallow his opponent from adding time to the parts that favor his side. If we must be arbitrary than it isn't fair only one side is locked, is it? Quote:
IMO, it is harder to write a plausible loss for your protagonists than wins. Victory justifies and covers up for a lot of decisions, even if on a more objective analysis they may actually be poor. And if you really kicked-a*sed, you can violate every tactical rule and probably get away with it since you just proved that You Know Better in Your Battle (at least to the viewer). When they lose, however, their efforts and decisions stand on their own merits, and they have to show clearly a best intelligent effort that was overwhelmed by superior enemy capability and/or by true enemy ingenuity. Most authors aren't great tacticians, so as it is their protagonists' decisions probably have flaws. Thus it is extra important not to deliberately impose new ones to "open a hole" for the antagonists. The combined effect will often make your characters look like idiots, which is more or less what happened this time. Quote:
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