2010-08-30, 20:24 | Link #4201 | |
(`・⊝・´)/\(`・⊝・´)
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2010-08-30, 22:29 | Link #4202 |
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I think there's a misunderstanding, Michael seats on the right side of the Throne, not the right hand.
Another thing, it was the Archangel Gabriel that possessed Sasha, but due to the mixed up in Angel Fall's identity, Gabriel gets bump to Michael's position on the right side, the element of fire, and even his name. This is my person opinion, but believe that the different ranks of angels exist, but just for simplicity, they're kept at 'angels' and 'archangels'.
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2010-08-30, 22:38 | Link #4204 |
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Or it could be the other way, instead of seeing Gabriel as a threat, he could view this as a chance. Both Accelerator and Kazakiri were sent by Aiwass, ended up fighting Gabriel, and perhaps level up in the process of fighting something more powerful than themselves and at the same time maybe learn something about how Angels work to increase the use of their own powers...
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2010-08-30, 23:02 | Link #4205 |
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For what purpose Aiwass wants to send Accelerator or Kazakiri to Russia. I can only tell his enjoying this show in the sidelines and like to mess things up. Maybe he already know that gabriel will be summoned and that's more the reason to send those two. It's a lot more interesting to see an angel to be beaten. And with it. The story would further unfold.
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2010-09-01, 02:04 | Link #4207 |
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Just too clarify, the term "Arch Angel" outside being the name of the second lowest hierarchy of angels, it can also be a term to describe any angels that holds a significant post.
Also, a single angel can occupy multiple hierarchies base on its post. As their hierarchies are divided according to the angel's duty, and it is natural for those holds multiple duty to occupy multiple ranks. |
2010-09-01, 04:12 | Link #4208 | ||
less qq; more pewpew
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Oh, and yes, apparently, Fiamma is now stronger than 100% Gabriel, thanks to his latest power-up. As I understand it, he only needs one more ingredient, the Imagine Breaker, in order to achieve the goal of GRS: La Persona superior a Dio. Keep up with the times. Quote:
And then you go on to assume that the Christian God is the most powerful, and imply that Christian angels and archangels should be more powerful than their analogues in different religions (because they serve a lesser god or whatnot). Right. Anyway, let's turn this around. Do you have any in-universe evidence that suggests any character among the ones introduced up to the most recent volume to be more powerful than Aiwass?
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2010-09-01, 06:17 | Link #4209 | |||||
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I'm curious if that statement by Aiwass you quoted is genuinely the reason behind the person who decided to add that line into the Index wiki stating "she is far above conventional Angels, including Archangels." Because if so, the evidence was even weaker than I originally suspected. I thought it had more to do with a translation error stating that Aiwass is like an Angel, but something beyond that, indicating she is a different breed of "Angel," then someone took that and incorrectly ran with the idea that she is far above even Archangels (which doesn't even make sense with the lack of information we have on Aiwass). Statements proclaiming Aiwass as being far above conventional Angels do not exist at Wikipedia.org, which is quite a massive repository of Index information (and Railgun information, for that matter). In fact, I've only seen that claim (Aiwass' superiority over Archangels) one time, with literally little to no supporting evidence or context surrounding it. I'm open to being provided real quotes from the novels not based on questionable interpretations; then I'll gladly accept it as fact and this tired debate I originally didn't care about can end. Spoiler for Aiwass Wiki:
There you have it. Taken from Aiwass' profile on the Index wiki. Wonderfully descriptive analysis of Aiwass' powers, am I right? I feel so enlightened now. Unless you speak Japanese and can provide me with something more than a few quotes that indicate that "Aiwass is powerful," please stop requiring me to utilize a constantly changing 2ch power chart as a reference for the Index power-hierarchy. I've already recognized Aiwass as being one of the top contenders. What are you looking for exactly? The only statement I've read so far indicating her power (aside from her confrontation with Accelerator) was the one stating she could "destroy the world with her fingertip". I heard this was stated in vol. 20, but I can't seem to find it (or there may be no translation yet). Is there anyone here who can confirm this? Regardless, Angels can also perform such acts and more. Spoiler for Index/Wikipedia:
And this, I believe, was a gimped Gabriel. Archangel Michael doesn't even enter into this equation. We can even leave Seraphim out of this, since they may not even play a role at all. Of course, the statement on the Index wiki indicating that even simple conventional Christian Angels are capable of laying waste to the earth with the utmost ease might be of some importance too, even if it is listed alongside the possibly (a very stressed "possibly") misinterpreted claim that Aiwass is above conventional Angels AND Archangels. As to your quote at the top of this post, what do "semi-omnipotent", "semi-omniscient", and "semi-omnipresent" even mean? How much more vague can such statements be? She can be in a few different places at once perhaps? Or she has telepathic abilities that allow her to read into events not directly associated with her surroundings? She's "semi-omniscient" because she knows a few details, such as Angel Fall? Perhaps she's aware of such things because she herself is very similar to Angels. Perhaps she's dealt with conventional Angels before. Knowledge does not equate to omniscience. Such abilities do not warrant "top spot" honors (though again, I'm not suggesting she doesn't deserve it either; please keep this in mind this time). According to that logic, the Angels in the wiki quote above could easily fit the "semi" levels of those terminologies as well, since I'm sure the Angels responsible for watching over the earth would have to have some form of minor omniscience to do their jobs (as is their God-given duty), and unless the author states otherwise, I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case since these Angels were directly inspired from the Bible (albeit with a few liberties taken here and there). And they possess some degree of "semi-omnipresence" because they can be summoned out of nowhere while keeping their cores stored away elsewhere. But as I said, "semi" doesn't really make sense. You can't "half" be everywhere at once. I don't think. Or maybe you can. Regardless, as for omnipotence, you're either omnipotent or not. Please elaborate on what "semi-omnipotence" would even encompasses. Because by that definition, many powerful beings in the Index universe could fit that misleading term. Quote:
And yes, I do keep asking for corrections. Correct corrections. Correct translations. Missing details that would clarify things greatly and "keep me up with the times". Quote:
Spoiler for Fiamma/Wiki:
Considering Lucifer is, oh I don't know, one of or the strongest angel(s) in Biblical scripture, this places Michael pretty high on the list. Now, logically speaking, can you put two and two together please? Fiamma is gaining a massive amount of his power from utilizing an INCOMPLETE version of the power of Michael's right arm or the magic symbolizing it (whichever description best fits). Despite this, he is still placed near Aiwass on the chart you value so highly. Now, extrapolating from this, Gabriel is also an Archangel like Michael. And there's one other detail you did not mention. Gabriel was NOT at full power in the fight in Russia (which I'm sure is common knowledge now). Not only this, but you left out the part where I actually never mentioned Gabriel was "stronger" than Aiwass, but simply deduced that from the logic of your "revered" chart, the fact Gabriel was nerfed in the fight, and the fact that Fiamma cannot use the Archangel Michael's full power yet (or can he?) and is still placed near Aiwass, I merely mentioned Gabriel as a "contender" in an open conflict. Understand now? But, just out of curiosity (not that I deny it or anything) was it stated directly anywhere that Fiamma has surpassed a 100% Gabriel (have we even seen a 100% Gabriel yet?), or was this simply the expected natural conclusion drawn from the fact that he's utilizing powers from Michael? Quote:
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I feel further continuation in this debate would just put us in circles until some clear-cut confrontation is displayed for us to witness the abilities between Aiwass and the Angels (which I doubt may happen). In summation for this wall of text, I don't clearly view Aiwass or any of the Angels as being superior to one another. You made that assumption on your own. I simply questioned the logic behind the reasoning you used based on your quotes and the chart. One final quote: Spoiler for Index Wiki:
I don't know. Seems to indicate a lack of "omnipresence", "omnipotence", and "omniscience" to me. In fact, it seems to indicate she originally didn't even have that power in the first place, but earned it. Speculation on my part, though, so take it with a grain of salt. Honestly, I never thought considering Aiwass and Archangels to be on roughly equal footing to be such a massive stretch, but you seem hell-bent on protecting a constantly changing 2ch power chart with characters who constantly change positions, and others whose positions aren't even known. Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-09-01 at 19:00. |
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2010-09-01, 22:31 | Link #4210 |
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The part where it said Aiwass can destroy the world with only one of its fingertips is in Vol20 epilogue (or called 'Battle Report'), mentioned in passing when Aiwass talked with Kazakiri.
Also, about the phrase 'DRAGON is everywhere', that's in terms of Academy City only, as it's covered in the AIM field, and this quote is from one of Academy City's directors (ref: Vol19), so Aiwass isn't omnipresent for sure. Here's a summary about the latest part of chinese translations of Vol21, Ch7 pt3: - Elizerina and Accelerator saw Misha/Gabriel being summoned, and the narrative described the situation as bad as a asteroid smashing down onto earth, or another ice age being caused by this event. - The Kremlin Report contains information about Heaven and Angels not in Index's 103,000 grimoires, and is the key to complete the Star of Bethlehem and bridge the gap between Fiamma and Index's knowledge. Accelerator is annoyed that Touma is so much ahead of him in dealing with the dark side of the world, knowing/involved in magic incidents that could influence the world when Accelerator was only settling events on just one side/city of the world. - Elizerina told Accelerator to run before Fiamma and Russia catches up to them, and leave the Kremlin report behind if he want a chance to get away. Accelerator told her not a chance, this is finally a opportunity to solve every problem he has. Misaka Worst is trying to get her hands on a AK rifle. Worst came out of Last Order's room, predicting what Accelerator is going to do: Keep both LO and the lambskin with him, escape Elizerina's borders and delibrately let Russia find him and chase after him, to not involve innocent citizens. Accelerator's embarassed that his plan was found out by Worst so easily, not used to doing 'good deeds' and saying it in front of others. Last edited by Flere821; 2010-09-01 at 22:32. Reason: correcting typos |
2010-09-01, 22:36 | Link #4211 |
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Why would the Kremlin Report hold information about Heaven's Angels? The Report was suppose to be Russia's protocol in the event that their nuclear silos were taken over by the enemy.
Also, I wouldn't take what Aiwass said literally, remember that the Book of Law which probably summoned Aiwass was also said to end the world of Christianity when opened.
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2010-09-01, 22:43 | Link #4212 | |
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And about how Aiwass have the power to destroy the world with only 1 fingertip, that's mentioned in the narration, not a statement by Aiwass. |
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2010-09-01, 23:34 | Link #4214 |
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I thought that the kremlin report is connected to nuke tech and goat skin is the one with angel knowledge. And accelerator already had it from vol 20.... or is it vol 19..... maybe not it's from vol 20.
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2010-09-01, 23:35 | Link #4215 | ||
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There are two documents, one is the Kremlin Report, the other is the goatskin document. The Goatskin is probably the one you were referring to about the Angels. Quote:
Meh, the world's too cheap these days.
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2010-09-02, 14:30 | Link #4218 | ||
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Perhaps that's where the line "conventional Angels are capable of laying waste to the world with the utmost ease" came from. |
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2010-09-02, 16:10 | Link #4219 |
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the real question is... how would anyone really know that... if the angels did have the power to lay waste to the earth how would you know...
The entire concept falls under the pit fall of if they ever displayed that power there wouldn't be a humanity left to record the fact. In short is has to be exaggeration otherwise, the display of ability would prevent the recording of the display of the ability by killing everyone that would record.
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2010-09-02, 18:31 | Link #4220 | ||
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Well nobody said they have to do it in an instant. Be it the [Sweep], stopping the Earth's rotation, or moving some celestial bodies, Gabriel has many ways to make our lives miserable. But there were records/stories of her wiping out half the planet (it was really two cities apparently).
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action, dengeki bunko, fantasy, light novels, science fiction, shounen |
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