[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Here's the original Japanese:
室内には犠牲者しかおらず、それ以外の人物は室内には存在しておりません。
Here's a more literal translation:
There are only victims inside the rooms; people other than that do not exist inside the rooms.

This does not preclude some victims existing outside the rooms (and even if it did, dead Kanon and Shannon do not exist at all), so there's no problem; Yasu just needs to be outside the room when the statement was made.

That makes slightly more sense, but the problem is as you say: The body of Kanon/Shannon cannot be in the room, unless it somehow counts as Kanon or Shannon at the time, and then only if he or she counts as a victim. And if so, then anyone else cannot exist at the same time (i.e. if Shannon is still in the room, Yasu and Beatrice cannot be).

Read the way the WH translation states, Kanon and Shannon would be forced to exist at the same time; read with your translation, this is a blatant red evasion which violates the spirit of the narrative because there is simply no reason why we would assume a person to have departed the room at this time even if we believe one or more of the deaths was faked.

Although Kinzo being considered a "victim" is a bit of a stretch.

If she's not talking about bodies, technically she's correct (technically, that nasty word) in that no one exists in the rooms at all.

Or she could be using the term victim as I described it. Your translation permits the victims to exist elsewhere, so it sorta works.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

Read the way the WH translation states, Kanon and Shannon would be forced to exist at the same time; read with your translation, this is a blatant red evasion which violates the spirit of the narrative because there is simply no reason why we would assume a person to have departed the room at this time even if we believe one or more of the deaths was faked.

The red statement was made some time after the investigation of the rooms had been completed (shortly after everybody got themselves hunkered down in the guesthouse), so it's not strange at all that a faker would have left the rooms by then.

[AuraTwilight]

So today I learned that Ryukishi apparently stole his costume designs.

http://jin115.com/archives/51815889.html

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The red statement was made some time after the investigation of the rooms had been completed (shortly after everybody got themselves hunkered down in the guesthouse), so it's not strange at all that a faker would have left the rooms by then.

I vaguely recall Ronove going over the details of the rooms closer to the immediacy of the discovery, but now that I think on it that narrative segment was kind of more of a flashback from after they'd gathered at the guesthouse.

It's still pretty much bullshit, as technically speaking the rooms could've been empty. In fact, if you happen to take a strict definition, isn't it possible that no one of the six named characters (well, five) ever died (until announced) or was ever in the rooms at all? I mean, think about it.

"Only victims are inside the rooms. No one else exists in the rooms." Take the statement literally. The rooms are empty. Is there any contradiction? I can't see one. Kinzo's body never would've needed to be burned, particularly since to my knowledge Battler never saw... or smelled... it in ep3.

Random other question: What's up with None of the six people committed suicide! How can Kanon and Shannon be dead then? Yasu gets to just blatantly have her cake and eat it too? "These people are me, except when I declare they're not me, but they still do whatever I want, and when they die they stop existing but I can call them dead, but if I consciously cause them to be dead it's not suicide or murder." Fuck that.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's still pretty much bullshit, as technically speaking the rooms could've been empty. In fact, if you happen to take a strict definition, isn't it possible that no one of the six named characters (well, five) ever died (until announced) or was ever in the rooms at all? I mean, think about it.

"Only victims are inside the rooms. No one else exists in the rooms." Take the statement literally. The rooms are empty. Is there any contradiction? I can't see one. Kinzo's body never would've needed to be burned, particularly since to my knowledge Battler never saw... or smelled... it in ep3.

You are correct; even if the rooms are empty then there's no contradiction (with the red), but you would have to start questioning what the adults were saying.

Anyway, RK07 wasn't constructing a "only one possible answer" scenario from the beginning. For example, Battler's theory that the closed room was created by 5 murders and an accident was never refuted (as stupid as it was). So, just because the red leaves room for other possibilities is not really a mistake on RK07's part; it was intentional.

[Renall]

Yeah, so he didn't have to commit to anything. Yet he still claims he intended a solution.

Yet the "intended solution" is really little more than an obvious answer drilled into you as blatant and then challenged repeatedly, not because the obvious solution should be doubted in any way, but to reach the truth essentially on faith by explaining away things that have better, simpler explanations because you know your solution is somehow right. It isn't rational at all; faced with evidence to the contrary, one must change the definition of words and assume an invented and impossibly unintuitive logistic until, at last, one has weathered all of the apparent contradictions (which were not put there because a theory was wrong, but apparently to mislead rational people and sow confusion).

That's not a mystery. That's a juvenile religion. "Believe x is true. If you find evidence that x is not true, reinterpret the evidence until x is true again in light of it. Do this as often as it takes. Your faith in x will be justified."

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah, so he didn't have to commit to anything. Yet he still claims he intended a solution.
-snip-

Yeah I don't really disagree with this, but it's another issue.

EDIT: Actually, wasn't it episode 3 when RK07's interviews started talking about anti-mystery?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Yeah I don't really disagree with this, but it's another issue.

EDIT: Actually, wasn't it episode 3 when RK07's interviews started talking about anti-mystery?

I wouldn't really disagree either, but I do't know why it's a problem that it is not a classical mystery. Yes, it is based on those but why should it have to stick to them?!

I think it was as early as EP2 when people started discussing similarities to the 三大奇書 (the three great strange fictions), ドグラ・マグラ (Dogura Magura), 黒死館殺人事件(Murder in the Mansion of the Black Death) and especially 虚無への供物 (An Offering to Nothingness)...Ryûkishi doesn't really say he did, but I think because he mentioned Anti-mystery from then on, he deliberately inserted some ideas of that subgenre into his writing.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

So today I learned that Ryukishi apparently stole his costume designs.

http://jin115.com/archives/51815889.html

You're actually suprised by this?! Many manga/anime/game designers take inspiration from fashion brands...basically ending up stealing the designs.
Some of the designs are credible inspirations, like the Eiserne Jungrfrau uniform or Lambdadelta...but stuff like Lion or the Siestas?! I wouldn't even call that inspired...that's just coincidental similarities.

[AuraTwilight]

It doesn't surprise me as such. I just found it super funny because someone recently commented that Ryukishi's designs are like super duper original. So I lol'd.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I wouldn't really disagree either, but I do't know why it's a problem that it is not a classical mystery. Yes, it is based on those but why should it have to stick to them?!

It's not a matter of whether it's fair by mystery standards. It's a matter of whether it's fair at all. The question is not whether as a mystery writer he should do things like this and be given a pass, for that can indeed be evaded by claiming he is not a mystery writer and thus doesn't need to conform to those standards; rather, the question is whether it's acceptable for a writer to do things like this under any circumstances.

He was unfair from a simple common decency standpoint. I couldn't give a shit and a half what genre to hold him to, he'd flunk every one of them, invent his own, and flunk it as well.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Renall

That's not a mystery.

Can Umineko be considered a mystery at this point? I think it was a novel about fiction meta-levels some of which with a flair of mystery rather than a mystery novel itself.

Sure, there were some puzzles to be solved, but the main "key" relied a lot on the author's subjectivity rather than on more generally well-known information. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a game but given its nature I wouldn't think it's the same kind of game you get in a mystery novel.

Notice that in the highest meta-levels we learn every single of the stories were fully fictional, the first 2 being written by an original author whilst the rest were written by a different person. Not only that but we also learned that some of the meta-levels we thought may have been real happened to be fictional as well. In addition, there's the possibility some of the characters we saw may not even exist. Moreover, in one Meta-level (i.e. EP8) we're even made to question the characterisation we had seen in the fictions (e.g. Kinzo's madness) and then in the highest meta level or "real world" we're simply made to doubt everything.

So, whilst Umineko tried to add some realism in the sense that facts are submerged in a sea of opinions and that truths are hidden within a huge amount of different perspectives, it ultimately lost the solid aspect a mystery novel ought to have, because in the end even the detective couldn't be trusted. So, I really think Umineko cannot be considered a mystery novel.

[AuraTwilight]

It's a novel ABOUT mystery novels.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Can Umineko be considered a mystery at this point? I think it was a novel about fiction meta-levels some of which with a flair of mystery rather than a mystery novel itself.

The fundamental mechanism of the writer is a mystery. Lowercase-m mystery. Not a Mystery. It was left unclear to the reader, not because it was rewarding to decipher, but because it sounds stupid exposed to the air and he knows it.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

He was unfair from a simple common decency standpoint. I couldn't give a shit and a half what genre to hold him to, he'd flunk every one of them, invent his own, and flunk it as well.

No matter now wether I think Umineko is fair ('cause I'd say compared to many other famous mysteries it is quite fair...sometimes even TOO fair)...is it really a inherent trait of any genre to be fair?!
Let's say you read the story as a take on the mystery-genre and rather use it's flaws and weakpoints to tell your story, among one is the power the author has over truth and fiction (I'm not saying that Ryûkishi did so deliberately)...is it then really a flaw to make a story unfair in certain instances?!
Though I'd still argue that apart from some quirky details most of Umineko is unbelievably fair.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's a novel ABOUT mystery novels.

And with mystery novel database elements mixed into it to give it a certain frame.

What I want to say is...blaming Umineko for not sticking to golden age novel standards is like blaming El Shaddai for not sticking to bible canon.

On a different note...the new chapter of EP4 is out and I noticed that in the end...especially if we considered Ange's journey to Rokkenjima as nothing more than an option (be it in her mind or in Tôya's fictions) and not actually happening...it's basically the same situation as in EP8 when she killed Eva.
She ends up on the roof (or in that case during her jump) and contemplates the events that happened so far (in the manga passing by images of the past games). I found this interesting, as it gives EP4 Ange the option to be the same as EP8 Ange...basically they are all pre-Yukari Anges.

Also I considered the idea that Eva might be representing Amakusa in that scene when she's summoned by the black witch. Basically she says that this is the final act of hatred against Ange granted to her by the black witch, returning from hell and killing her.
You could say that Amakusa was summoned by the power of the black witch...he was probably bought with the money that Eva made in the Ushiromiya company as the head CEO...which she became as the sole heir. It's doubtable that it was actually a plan carried out by Eva, but it would be a way that Ange could see it.
And the grin when she says cool is just SO Amakusa. And it would explain why it was so often hinted in the manga that Amakusa had connections to the witch.

Of course this depends on wether 07thExpansion actually is supervising the manga...which Ryûkishi says he is. I'll try to go with the golden truth it's official.

[Sherringford]

My problem with the series isn't that Umineko isn't a Golden Age novel. I mean, I'm angry at it at certain points because it teases a Golden Age aspect that could have been amazing but didn't go through with it. But that's just my personal taste so I don't care that much about it.

My actual issue is with the fact that Umineko tried to be an unique kind of mystery and it...really wasn't that good with that. It could have been, but it's hard to take all the lectures on "thinking" seriously when the novel makes a mockery out of its own rules. The novel's themes get lost among the author's hypocrisy(which to be fair happened mostly because of how his fans reacted to his novels causing him to backtrack and make a few missteps) and the novel's own rules just get...tossed aside.

For example, personality death. Everyone saw it coming, but most people were hoping the answer was more satisfying than something that makes the whole red system rather useless. That wasn't the case.

So yeah, I won't go off in a long rant because I had a long day at work, but mostly it comes down to "I don't even have a problem with it in regards to how it connects to the mystery genre. I have a problem with how it stands by itself. And I hate that it ended up like this because if the author stuck to his guns instead of chickening out at some points due to his fanbase, it could have been much better."

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

You are correct; even if the rooms are empty then there's no contradiction (with the red), but you would have to start questioning what the adults were saying.

Anyway, RK07 wasn't constructing a "only one possible answer" scenario from the beginning. For example, Battler's theory that the closed room was created by 5 murders and an accident was never refuted (as stupid as it was). So, just because the red leaves room for other possibilities is not really a mistake on RK07's part; it was intentional.

It was refuted indirectly, when it was revealed that Kinzo was already dead.

[AuraTwilight]

I still think that Shkanon could've been more worthwhile if it was handled differently. Considering how core it is to the story he wanted to tell, I don't think it
s right to ask him to change it; however, he executed it awfully.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

It was refuted indirectly, when it was revealed that Kinzo was already dead.

In EP3 it was about to be refuted but Beatrice held back after Ronove told her that it be best to not go that far.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is no evidence that the statement in question only refers to the other two doors. There is a reason why witch hunt translated it with an ambiguous "the doors" rather than "those doors". There is absolutely no evidence that the subject of this statement is the same as the previous. There is no mention whatsoever of that door having a lock. There is no mention whatsoever of that door being locked.

Evidence? We're talking about linguistic context, not something you can factually prove.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Assuming stuff in Umineko is not a good idea, especially considering the trick used in the first twilight of EP2. If ryuukishi expected us to assume stuff in EP3 but not in EP2, well that's really rich.

What should be assumed is that it was reported by the adults to be locked (or at least otherwise blocked), otherwise there would've been no mystery presented to piece-Battler in the first place. If you want to suppose that the adults were lying about some door being unlocked in episode 3 then go ahead; RK07 left room for that regardless of the dispute we're having about this particular door (at least until episode 4; see below).

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for the windows, it was specifically mentioned they were closed.

I've read the description several times and never saw this. You'll have to provide me a citation.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And I'll take a step back and explain why it is very unlikely that the two doors of the boiler room can be locked with the same key. It's very simple: one is an inside door and we can assume it's built the same as the other doors in the corridor for aesthetic purposes. The other is an outside door which must be designed to be impervious to rain. I can't really imagine that the two doors are the same, it's ridiculous. So the chance that they have the same kind of lock and that they can be opened by the same key is very unlikely. That's not something you'd normally expect.

The doors' designs are irrelevant; all that matters is the lock installed on them.

-----------------------

Because it seems relevant, here's the key reds for the final "solution" that Battler came up regarding the linked closed rooms (in his duel with Beatrice in the episode 4 Tea Party):

All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

Strangely enough, Battler countered with "After the murder of each person in their respective rooms, the culprit created a linked closed room. But the culprit just couldn't return the key for the last room to the inside of that closed room no matter what they did. But they were able to return it. The first person to discover a corpse just had to pretend to find the key and show that they'd pulled it from the pocket of one of the corpses!!", and Beatrice accepted it. I'm not sure how this could work with "all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!".

Here's the original Japanese red and blue:
マスターキー5本は全て、5人の使用人の懐よりそれぞれ発見された!　個別の鍵は死体の傍らの封筒の中に! 　つまり、連鎖密室にかかわる全ての鍵が、連鎖密室内に閉じ込められていたわけだ!!　ドアの隙間だの窓の 隙間だの通気口だのッ、そんなところを使って密室外から鍵を戻すことなど出来ぬぞ!!
なら毒ガスで殺したんだ!　鍵は通らなくてもガスなら通るぜ?!　密室の外から殺人を実行した んだ!!
彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ!　室外からの殺害は不可能だぞ!!　さらに赤を 重ねようぞ!　金蔵を除く5人の殺人の際、殺人者は必ず同室していた!　自殺者がいないことは当時に赤で宣 言済みだ!!
犯人は全員をそれぞれの部屋で殺害後、連鎖密室を構築した。しかし、最後の部屋の鍵だけは、どうしても密室 内に戻せない。だが戻すことは出来たぜ。死体の第一発見者が、鍵を見つけたふりをして、誰かの死体のポケッ トから取り出して見せればいいからだ!!

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

It was refuted indirectly, when it was revealed that Kinzo was already dead.

Ah yes, quite right. My point about there not being a single certain solution still stands though.

[Used Can]

Personally, I don't really mind R07 not sticking to the Golden Age mysteries, but simply using a lot of his own subjectivity as part of the rules and answers to his game. The most basic thing I'd ask is that the rules and answers work with conventional knowledge (or require a bit of simple research) and a bit of common sense. However, if I've got to ponder what death means and then after analysing some ambiguous text somehow conclude I'm dealing with imaginary characters because of meta-fiction, then I think that's hardly a mystery.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I still think that Shkanon could've been more worthwhile if it was handled differently. Considering how core it is to the story he wanted to tell, I don't think it
s right to ask him to change it; however, he executed it awfully.

To be honest, I would have been cool with it if ShKanon had play a role like ShMion, as in they are key to solve some mysteries, but not THE mystery.

I'd also have been happy if R07 had left Beatrice alone instead of making her part of ShKanon and ultimately part of the role-play of some delusional person of unknown sex. It's like you take the greatest character of the game and turned her into something terribly lame. Which was rather sad, given that Beatrice was one of the main reasons I kept playing this game.