[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[witchfan]

Yeah, about Erika, like I said, I am assuming this to only be the case for EPs 1-4.

[rogerpepitone]

AuraTwilight: What exactly is your explanation? (Why did Shannon start doing it in the first place? Which murders were faked, what did various characters think was faked, and so on?)

Shkannon is a BIG claim. (Shannon has been doing double duty for some years, and nobody's noticed? She hasn't slipped up by using the wrong voice or letting her wig slip once?)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's a difference. Battler being Kyrie's son is not touted as being integral to any mystery. Shkanon apologists are known to claim that it explains mysteries, a fact as untrue as Battler's parentage solving anything.

I don't think I ever stressed such a point, at best I might have said that the possibility existed, and I said that with shkanon you can explain the EP3 first twilight. But that has never been a necessary point.

Chronotrig never really represented the whole totality of shkanon theorists.

Originally Posted by witchfan

To assume Shkannon, you need to be a lot more daring. The difference is that, whereas one theory is unnecessary and ridiculous, the other is minor, insignificant, and reasonable. There is no problem with assuming Battler is Kyrie's son, at least not one that I know of. The implications of that theory are minor. Shkannon, on the other hand, drastically changes the entire story if it is assumed to be true. And again, it is a ridiculous theory which I'm pretty sure we would all rather be done with. For these reasons it is held to a higher standard, not only of scrutinization, but also of necessity.

Edit: again, Renall?!

Well I was merely answering to that particular claim that Renall often makes. From the mere standpoint of "it isn't necessary" I think that Battler being Kyrie's son is by all mean a lot less important than shkanon from a narrative standpoint.
I don't think the story would have changed even marginally if this bit never existed.

On the other hand for worse or good it can't be denied that the effect of shkanon in this story is very pervasive especially starting from EP6.


As for being ridiculous, we don't even know if this is a fictional shkanon, a real shkanon or who knows what else. And we probably will never know. So as long as I can agree that the whole idea without a proper explanation sounds ridiculous, I'm not even sure what kind of stuff I can actually call ridiculous. Whatever you are considering ridiculous witchfan is at best an assumption.

As a side note the fact that Rudolf managed to buy every person involved with Kyrie's delivery at the hospital simply showing some bankrolls sounds a bit meh, to me. I suppose it's not impossible, but it's Japan we are talking about not some kind of third world country, I don't think there are that many doctors and nurses willing to compromise their career and their public image for something like that.

[witchfan]

As a side note the fact that Rudolf managed to buy every person involved with Kyrie's delivery at the hospital simply showing some bankrolls sounds a bit meh, to me. I suppose it's not impossible, but it's Japan we are talking about not some kind of third world country, I don't think there are that many doctors and nurses willing to compromise their career and their public image for something like that.

I was thinking about this too. It may or may not be safe to assume we can shove this under the carpet like some other questionable things in the story.

[AuraTwilight]

Eva dead? Sure.

Hideyoshi, on the other hand... is in exactly the same situation as Shannon. Guess there isn't any need for it, though, since it doesn't line up with Will's solution ("Wasn't really locked").

Except the stake in his head and water falling in his face. Faked deaths are always in comfortable places and positions. Unless Hideyoshi was fine with showing his fat dong to Battler and the servants, well...

I'm not saying it has no meaning. I am saying it does not mean the 'truth' at face value. It can even mean the 'magical truth', if you want to interpret it that way. "You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic."

Well, duh. My theory is that it represents Beatrice's truth, whether it's literal or not. In the instance you quoted, she's saying the younger Beatrice performed magic. This is true: she performed magic "as Beatrice defines it", as in stage magic. Illusions accepted as real.

Okay, prove this and I'll back out.

Read the scene. It's not like Kanon died and then someone shoved him in the boiler; The Kinzo corpse was discovered while Kanon was still conscious and being tended to by Nanjo. They found the Kinzo body, Battler ran after the culprit, eventually Jessica and Nanjo report Kanon's death.

Beatrice was too, you know. Oh and those goats? Old friends of Kinzo. Remember Kinzo?

I'll give you that he was talking to Battler (the detective extraordinaire who is also a culprit), but Battler also talked with Beatrice in the end of EP4, along with other outrageous things.

You're being stupid. Someone dressing up in a blonde wig and a dress is not the same as Battler hallucinating that a dead person is alive or seeing goats and magic and shit.

By the way, this is why I don't respect your objections to Ryukishi's writing, if you're going to deliberate abuse the text like this to make a point.

AuraTwilight: What exactly is your explanation? (Why did Shannon start doing it in the first place? Which murders were faked, what did various characters think was faked, and so on?)

Shkannon is a BIG claim. (Shannon has been doing double duty for some years, and nobody's noticed? She hasn't slipped up by using the wrong voice or letting her wig slip once?)

Why did Shkanon start doing it?: I see no problems with EP7's explanation as presented. She's engaging in a tremendous self-deception that incorporates costume play; not that weird and certainly not unheard of in these types of fictions.

Which murders were faked and the like I'm not entirely certain: I'm positive that the entire first twilight is faked as part of a murder mystery game setup, and then a real murderer hijacks things and fucks it up. For Shkanon specifically, Shannon's death is faked and Hideyoshi is in on it as part of the script. Then Kanon fakes his death or dies for real, depending on your theory.

Second arc, Kanon fakes his death and becomes Shannon. Shannon then dies for real. Third arc, they both fake their deaths, allowing for their "Resurrections" before George and Jessica. They die.

Fourth Arc, Shannon becomes Beatrice, is unsatisfied with Battler's answer, and suicide death pacts with Maria or something.

Why nobody noticed: Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in on it. Gohda doesn't really pay attention to them and isn't always there, Krauss is busy with business and doesn't associate with the servants much, Natsuhi fucking talks to dead and imaginary people, and Jessica's not all that bright and is horny for Kanon's boner besides. Everyone else has the excuse of only being there once a year or whatever.

As for being ridiculous, we don't even know if this is a fictional shkanon, a real shkanon or who knows what else. And we probably will never know. So as long as I can agree that the whole idea without a proper explanation sounds ridiculous, I'm not even sure what kind of stuff I can actually call ridiculous. Whatever you are considering ridiculous witchfan is at best an assumption.

Frankly, the biggest problem in my opinion as far as ridiculousness goes is that Rosa's allowed to keep custody of Maria. I can't believe people can excuse Rosa beating up a social services worker and not get her kid taken away but call Ryukishi a hack bullshit writer because an androgynous asian shemale can convincingly crossdress as either a busty maid or a waify boy.

Even though it's a done to death trope that's fairly pervasive.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well I was merely answering to that particular claim that Renall often makes. From the mere standpoint of "it isn't necessary" I think that Battler being Kyrie's son is by all mean a lot less important than shkanon from a narrative standpoint.
I don't think the story would have changed even marginally if this bit never existed.

Unless it's Kyrie's motive. It's probably going to be her motive for killing everyone in ep4 regardless of whether it's true in reality.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As a side note the fact that Rudolf managed to buy every person involved with Kyrie's delivery at the hospital simply showing some bankrolls sounds a bit meh, to me. I suppose it's not impossible, but it's Japan we are talking about not some kind of third world country, I don't think there are that many doctors and nurses willing to compromise their career and their public image for something like that.

It would be easier to do so if we assume that Asumu's child had cot death rather than still birth. Still tricky, but he could possibly pull it off without anyone else noticing.

[witchfan]

You're being stupid. Someone dressing up in a blonde wig and a dress is not the same as Battler hallucinating that a dead person is alive or seeing goats and magic and shit.

You forgot to mention that wig-wearing maid is dead when Battler sees her.

By the way, this is why I don't respect your objections to Ryukishi's writing, if you're going to deliberate abuse the text like this to make a point.

Shkannon is exactly this kind of deliberate abuse, to an even higher degree. It is so ridiculous I would gladly accept the boiler crackpot theory over Shkannon. This is the point I'm trying to make here.

[AuraTwilight]

You forgot to mention that wig-wearing maid is dead when Battler sees her.

No she's not. Battler doesn't find all those bodies until after the confrontation with Beatrice. Read again.

Shkannon is exactly this kind of deliberate abuse, to an even higher degree. It is so ridiculous I would gladly accept the boiler crackpot theory over Shkannon. This is the point I'm trying to make here.

No, it's not. It's a plot point you don't like, but it's a legitimate part of the text and it doesn't twist or distort anything in any objective way. You're trying to make a point based on misrepresenting the text and arguing on a nonexistent passage, as if the book reads "Hagrid killed Persely" instead of "Snape Killed Dumbledore."

[unsuspectingvisitor]

@witchfan
remember what clair said in the beginning before she tells the story?
she said "Let it be heard.I am one yet many"
it just support the shakannon theory.

[AuraTwilight]

It's also a metaphor and she's parroted by fictional characters she's never pretended to be like Zepar and Furfur, just to be fair.

[witchfan]

No she's not. Battler doesn't find all those bodies until after the confrontation with Beatrice. Read again.

[Edit: hold on, that was an irrelevant link. I have the script...]

[Edit 2: my retarded self thought Witch Hunt's script file was in a format human eyes could read. Long story short I don't have the game installed, so this may very well be my bad memory. If so - I drop the Kanon is burned corpse theory*. Lol.

* I see no problem with actual-Kanon being dead assuming fictional Kanon. However, the problem is that if we assume fictional Kanon, we must also assume that the corpse belongs to someone else, or Kanon would be considered a 'magical entity', which Battler should have the ability to see past. One way to get out of this predicament is to assume fictional Kinzo corpse... but I'll admit that's at least as ridiculous Shkanon.]

No, it's not. It's a plot point you don't like, but it's a legitimate part of the text and it doesn't twist or distort anything in any objective way.

I envy your confidence here, if nothing else.

[AuraTwilight]

[Edit: hold on, that was an irrelevant link. I have the script...]

[Edit 2: my retarded self thought Witch Hunt's script file was in a format human eyes could read. Long story short I don't have the game installed, so this may very well be my bad memory. If so - I drop the Kanon is burned corpse theory*. Lol.

* I see no problem with actual-Kanon being dead assuming fictional Kanon. However, the problem is that if we assume fictional Kanon, we must also assume that the corpse belongs to someone else, or Kanon would be considered a 'magical entity', which Battler should have the ability to see past. One way to get out of this predicament is to assume fictional Kinzo corpse... but I'll admit that's at least as ridiculous Shkanon.]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I envy your confidence here, if nothing else.

It has nothing to do with that so much as recognizing the fact that all complaints about Shkanon are rooted in subjective opinion instead of objective errors in the test such as causal plot holes/editing problems/other technical issues that can't be chalked up to deliberate creative intent.

You're really overblowing things. Shkanon isn't THAT bad. How come you're fine with Rosa keeping custody of her daughter after beating up a social worker, but you can't believe that someone can crossdress and trick once-a-year visitors, a negligent servant, a distant businessman, a delusional housewife, and a horny, dense, and overly trusting teenager?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Frankly, the biggest problem in my opinion as far as ridiculousness goes is that Rosa's allowed to keep custody of Maria. I can't believe people can excuse Rosa beating up a social services worker and not get her kid taken away but call Ryukishi a hack bullshit writer because an androgynous asian shemale can convincingly crossdress as either a busty maid or a waify boy.

Even though it's a done to death trope that's fairly pervasive.

Maria is not a reliable witness. Rosa may have had an argument with a social worker, or the social worker may have actually shown up, but the only person clearly saying "Rosa kicked the crap out of a social worker" is Maria, and with the facts apparently not matching up with that, perhaps she exaggerated.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It has nothing to do with that so much as recognizing the fact that all complaints about Shkanon are rooted in subjective opinion instead of objective errors in the test such as causal plot holes/editing problems/other technical issues that can't be chalked up to deliberate creative intent.

If you think the complaints are solely subjective, you're giving some remarkably bad writing a pass. That aside, I don't think it's fair to start pitching "well you only think that because you do/don't like it" around, as I think we could all needle in on someone's subjective tastes here and accuse them of being entirely driven by those.

[AuraTwilight]

Maria is not a reliable witness. Rosa may have had an argument with a social worker, or the social worker may have actually shown up, but the only person clearly saying "Rosa kicked the crap out of a social worker" is Maria, and with the facts apparently not matching up with that, perhaps she exaggerated.

My point is that no one questions it or raises a stink about it. A good majority of people just take this sort of shit at face value.

If you think the complaints are solely subjective, you're giving some remarkably bad writing a pass. That aside, I don't think it's fair to start pitching "well you only think that because you do/don't like it" around, as I think we could all needle in on someone's subjective tastes here and accuse them of being entirely driven by those.

I'm not trying to excuse bad writing here; I'm just trying to say that witchfan's going over the top here with his trying to compare Shkanon to someone deliberately misreading the text. "Shkanon is just as bad as me intentionally rewriting an early scene and passing it for my theory derp."

Uh uh, no. Even if Shkanon is bad, it IS still a subjective viewpoint in writing that is still technically sound. You can dislike his writing and criticize the CONTENT of his writing all you want, but I'm not gonna settle for someone calling his writing literally and objectively incorrect or such nonsense.

[Cao Ni Ma]

All it takes for the facade to fall apart is to have Natsuhi come in one day and say " need to have Kanon and Shannon together to prep them on what needs to be done ", or Jessica going "Ive literally never seen you with Shannon together at the same time in the two years that I've known you despite you both working as trusted servants. I mean I see Genji and Kumasawa together all the time but...".

Suspension of disbelief, here's an excerpt from the wiki page : Most see the enjoyment of many B-grade science fiction films and television series such as the early series of Doctor Who, where the audience willingly ignores low-budget "cheesy" props and occasional plot holes, in order to engage fully with the enjoyable story — which may be more so for those additions to its inherent outrageousness.

I cant lie, this story was very enjoyable even after it starts to lose steam. I willingly suspended my disbelief in terms of the meta world. I accepted that it could exist as it made the story more enjoyable. But that something like my example never occurred in the span of 2 years seem so urghhhhh.

[AuraTwilight]

All it takes for the facade to fall apart is to have Natsuhi come in one day and say " need to have Kanon and Shannon together to prep them on what needs to be done ", or Jessica going "Ive literally never seen you with Shannon together at the same time in the two years that I've known you despite you both working as trusted servants. I mean I see Genji and Kumasawa together all the time but...".

Easy; most of the year, only one of them is on duty and the other is on leave. The story only shows us the times when they're on duty at the same time (mostly and almost entirely the yearly conference) because that's the only time anything interesting happens with them. Thus, the two are working at the same time so unoften that no one finds it all that suspicious.

Not to mention they have different duties around the place so they don't have much opportunity to be next to each other unless Something Big is going on.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I mean I see Genji and Kumasawa together all the time but...".

Hey, isn't Genji furniture too? But... perhaps we should leave that for some other time, heh.

[Judoh]

That and Genji handles the Schedules according to Episode 7, not Natsuhi.

My Take: It was fun to call Shkanon ridiculous when it wasn't canon, but not anymore when it's practically in your face. I mean Shkanon is just, meh, for me at this point. Not really worthy of my distaste, or praise for cleverness. It's ridiculousness, and silliness, relies upon how much you care about it IMO.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't even find it all that ridiculous; when you're pulling all the strings on the island while letting some MOON TOURISM idiot and his "CREST IN MAI HART" wife think they're in charge, you can get away with a hell of a lot.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Easy; most of the year, only one of them is on duty and the other is on leave. The story only shows us the times when they're on duty at the same time (mostly and almost entirely the yearly conference) because that's the only time anything interesting happens with them. Thus, the two are working at the same time so unoften that no one finds it all that suspicious.

Not to mention they have different duties around the place so they don't have much opportunity to be next to each other unless Something Big is going on.

"Hey its that dumb time of the year again where we have to clean that damn chapel, I need every servant here to get it done properly"

Even in the family conference situations "Ok you two, those uncouth ingrates will be arriving to the island in about 3 hours so this is the plan" I mean, they had to do something like this if they where trying to keep Kinzo's death a secret to the other family members.