Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by IIKII

Feel that CC cried not because lulu is going to die but instead lulu is going to live as a immortal and to be with her forever which makes her cried happily? or lulu being a immortal is far more worse than being dead.

It was obviously tears of sadness

[Last Sinner]

After having being disappointed by anime endings for clsoe to a decade (with the notable exception of Last Exile), Code Geass managed to pull it off and then some. I really felt fulfilled with this ending.

And that's why I respect Lelouch. He never cared about what the process of his plan would do to himself. His initial intentions may have been somewhat misguided, but by the end, he was able to find a way to do the best thing anyone could and end the cycle of evil and hatred. To bear that much hate and sin for the good of everyone else - what a guy. You can criticise his methods but the simple fact is, only he could have ever achieved this and that Geass was a necessary means to the ends which were needed. The man found a way to bend evil to do good in the end. A very tragic hero. But in the end, he was able to prevent Nunnally from suffering the dark path he endured, he was able to give most of his friends the freedom they wanted as well as the rest of humanity. He truly is the anti of Light. While Light simply became infinitely more corrupted by his own power, Lelouch knew that he could end the cycle, which he managed to pull off. And unlike Light, who wanted to be reverred as God, Lelouch didn't care what people thought of him. He simply had to get the plan done.

Hey, it is a bittersweet ending and perhaps corny that so many people lived, but that was his intention, though. Nunnally can now have the life he wanted to give her. Kallen is now free and able to live. The Black Knights and Suzaku ended up being the good guys. Schniezel and Cornelia ended up being converted. Jeremiah and Anya ended up with a very 'orange' life (man, that is gold!). Ougi and Viletta were finally able to put heritage aside and be together. Like him or hate him, Lelouch managed to do what was best for all. For him to do that without wanting to be the hero is a very noble, selfless thing.

In the end, the best possible ending for Lelouch was to spend eternity with C.C. I actually felt that was going to happen a month ago and it did happen. In the end, two tainted souls are able to heal each other, compliment each other and help each other live on through eternity. In the end, they're the most inspiring duo/couple I've ever seen. They ended up saving each other. Lelouch was able to find some sort of redemption, but as I argued before and before, only C.C. would ever be able to give it to him, as he was the only one who could give it to C.C. And if that isn't Lelouch 'disgusied' on the cart at the very end, then at the least Lelouch was able to give C.C. some form of redemption in being able to use her gift to fix the world. Remember, it's the Japanese guys. They LOVE open-ended endings! You are supposed to be able to interpret it either way! So take from it what you will.

I can't recall ever enjoying watching a series this much. So damn epic. Hats off to Sunrise and the head writer for keeping it together the whole way through and for FINALLY learning how to do a proper ending! That alone is a miracle.

And with this comes a problem I've been dreading...is anything else to be made in the future going to be able to measure up enough to make me watch it? -_- Still, I will never regret watching this. A masterpiece I feel privilged to have been able to see all of.

[FreezeGeass]

I picked this up from another forum. I really, really hope it isn't true. All I can say is...WTF?

The original plans for R2:

Source: Okouchi x Yoshino x Morita interview included in R2 DVD/Bluray Booklet #1

- The "phantom episode 26": (Presumably before the timeslot change,) Okouchi had written 4 versions of this episode and the script had pretty much been approved. It was to have been a direct continuation of Stage 25; in this version, Lelouch actually wins against Suzaku. Lelouch then infiltrates Great Britannia, but then loses against the Emperor.

- After that, two scenarios were suggested:

1) The Prisoner President Arc (official name)

Lelouch is imprisoned, but every night he escapes (!?!?) and becomes the President (!?!?!?!?!?!?). Lelouch wins against Schneizel in the presidential election. No, seriously.

In this version, a girl* who looks exactly like Lelouch turns up to take his place, leading to a Black Knight** misunderstanding things ("Zero is actually a woman!") and falling in love with "Zero".

*Although it isn't mentioned in this interview, in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 it is revealed that this Lelouch-lookalike girl was to have been Lilycia (Gottwald), which would explain her name. As 2chers have pointed out since the release of the picture drama, the name "Riri-sha" looks like it was made by shifting the characters in "Ruru-shu" one space up in the hiragana chart (though the "shi" in "sha" and "shu" were left intact)

**Again, not mentioned in this interview, but in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 this person is revealed to be... you guessed it...Tamaki.

2) (No official name given, but I like to think of this as Code Geass: Infinite Ryvius)

The entire Ashford Academy is brought aboard a ship (Avalon?) and Zero becomes captain. Lelouch Lamperouge enlists as a PO, and whenever Tamaki tries to bully the new guy, Zero, for whatever reason, gets mad at Tamaki. I wonder why indeed...

This scenario didn't survive very long, however, and it was finally decided that they had to use the "memory loss" option.

Some other things mentioned in the interview:

- As with Stage 18, Okouchi wrote the ending of Turn 5 without any real plans on what happens next. Morita: "[Okouchi] said: I'll think about it later." Yoshino: "Okouchi said, "I'm sure I'll think of something next week."" This is apparently the reason for Morita's (humorous) acknowledgement of Okouchi being a "real man".

- Though this is already pretty obvious, the writers had to speed up the tempo in R2 because from the very beginning they had intended for the first season to be equivalent to the national qualifiers, and the second to be the World Championships. However, because of the timeslot change, they were sent back to the national qualifiers.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by FreshSalad

Um.. I don't you can make the statement "that man is not lelouch."
Obviously its ambiguous, no doubts about that.
As its been mentioned OVER AND OVER again, why is it ambiguous?
simply because the creators wanted it to be that it COULD be interpreted it either way. If you haven't noticed, there is a WHOLE SHIT LOAD of evidence that suggests that either one could have happened. For exapmle, the transfer of memories to Nunally. You interpret it as a) hes immortal b)she has mind reading powers c) something else. Clearly they don't TELL you for a reason. Most likely cause the creator wants to be able to continue the series if he wanted too. But yet the fact that he LINGERS on the cart driver in which the moment could have C2 gazing into the sky on a horse shows that the probability of lelouch being alive is 60%. Why? Simply because its easier for the creator to bring back the character in this context than it is to kill him off. Sure, he could say, oh that was random driver, but the question of why would be asked.

So overall
Conclusion = He is supposed to both, as the creator wanted it to be until he figures out what the hell he wants to do.

So therefore, LELOUCHDIE AND LELOUCHALIVE fans, im sorry but both of you are right until further evidence is produced. And guys, don't try to search for more evidence, its probable that in ep 25 etc there is no evidence that is infalliable.

Also, lelouch sort of failed (great endeavor though) in his final strategy. He created a world that resembles our world, which is pretty fail. I thought he should have instead fixed the world, created a dictatorship that selects its successor through some sort of program that everyone can attend etc. basically, not attempt to create our world. There will always be war so he really prevented not much. Think the failure of the logic of him being the hate of everything saving the world shows that they purposely wanted to make an ending in which he would die. O well, great ideals, sucks it wouldn't work.

What shitload of evidence? I just refuted all of it right there. There's no possible way Lelouch could have gotten a Code, and he died with the grey eyeshadow no character has ever revived from. Nunally never even had any visions, you buffoons: those flashbacks were a visual aid for the viewers, and there is no indication Nunally understands things any better than Kallen. Even aside from the fact that those scenes didn't resemble any of the past mind transfers, there is a much better reason: narrative simplicity. Making Nunally see Lelouch's memories rather than just realizing she'd been wrong about him doesn't add anything to the story; just like Kallen doesn't need to know the gritty details of Lelouch's plan to appreciate his sacrifice, Nunally doesn't either.

And did you even look at my picture? That's not fucking Lelouch! That's some tanned old guy with a bunch of white whiskers! If you're going to claim that a random five second character who doesn't even look like Lelouch somehow is Lelouch, then I can claim that

Spoiler for this:

this person, whom I speculate resurrected and stole away with Lelouch's body shortly after this scene to engage in necrophilic sex, is actually Shirley with just as much evidence.

[Deliberation]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What shitload of evidence? I just refuted all of it right there. There's no possible way Lelouch could have gotten a Code, and he died with the grey eyeshadow no character has ever revived from. Nunally never even had any visions, you buffoons: those flashbacks were a visual aid for the viewers, and there is no indication Nunally understands things any better than Kallen. Even aside from the fact that those scenes didn't resemble any of the past mind transfers, there is a much better reason: narrative simplicity. Making Nunally see Lelouch's memories rather than just realizing she'd been wrong about him doesn't add anything to the story; just like Kallen doesn't need to know the gritty details of Lelouch's plan to appreciate his sacrifice, Nunally doesn't either.

And did you even look at my picture? That's not fucking Lelouch! That's some tanned old guy with a bunch of white whiskers! If you can claim that a random five second character who doesn't even look like Lelouch somehow is Lelouch, then I can claim that

Spoiler for this:

this person, whom I speculate resurrected and stole away with Lelouch's body shortly after this scene to engage in necrophilic sex, is Shirley with just as much evidence.

OH STOP IT with the I'm right you're wrong. We all have opinions here with some plausible evidence that points to them either they're dead or alive.

I for one thinks Lelouch is alive but maybe he's not the cart driver. My book is about him being alive or dead is 50/50. Because there are evidence that points out he might be dead but at the same there are are evidence with him being alive.

And I suspect that Cornelia's the one who took Lelouch body away? I'm not sure.

BTW for that cart driver picture. Some says he's chewing something and some says he's blowing sleeping bubbles. So it depends. PEOPLE WANT TO SEE WHAT THEY SEE.

Yes I think they left it ambiguous. We won't know what it is until the director says so. Then that's it. La fin.

[Last Sinner]

C.C.'s final lines: 'The power of Geass brings one solitude. Well, that's not quite right. Isn't it, Lelouch?' And while saying that, she doesn't seem sad one bit and she isn't crying. I doubt she would be ecstatic is she had to spend eternity alone and on the run.

You could interpret it as either Lelouch and C.C. being together for eternity or that Lelouch was the one who was able to be break the cycle and bring peace and a world free from Geass.

Furthermore, you can't simply say Lelouch is dead from that frame. Who's to say C.C. isn't simply riding to where he is hiding - perhaps that's what the castle C.C. stares at as the final ending theme starts is meant to be about.

Either way, Lelouch was able to pull his plan off. Whether you want to believe he's alive or dead, that's up to you. I prefer to think he's alive and spending eternity with C.C. It's your right to pick which option you want to believe. Just don't go forcing it on everyone. And remember, the Japanese love open-ended endings.

Spoiler for other series open-ended endings that some people may not have seen:

Isn't the debate as to whether Spike lived or died at the very end of Cowboy Bebop still going? Or whether that was Lucy at the door at the very end of Elfen Lied?

Don't bust an artery over this. Just enjoy the ending for what it was and the series for what it was, be glad you got to see it all, then move on.

[tzia_n]

Originally Posted by FreezeGeass

I picked this up from another forum. I really, really hope it isn't true. All I can say is...WTF?

The original plans for R2:

Source: Okouchi x Yoshino x Morita interview included in R2 DVD/Bluray Booklet #1

- The "phantom episode 26": (Presumably before the timeslot change,) Okouchi had written 4 versions of this episode and the script had pretty much been approved. It was to have been a direct continuation of Stage 25; in this version, Lelouch actually wins against Suzaku. Lelouch then infiltrates Great Britannia, but then loses against the Emperor.

- After that, two scenarios were suggested:

1) The Prisoner President Arc (official name)

Lelouch is imprisoned, but every night he escapes (!?!?) and becomes the President (!?!?!?!?!?!?). Lelouch wins against Schneizel in the presidential election. No, seriously.

In this version, a girl* who looks exactly like Lelouch turns up to take his place, leading to a Black Knight** misunderstanding things ("Zero is actually a woman!") and falling in love with "Zero".

*Although it isn't mentioned in this interview, in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 it is revealed that this Lelouch-lookalike girl was to have been Lilycia (Gottwald), which would explain her name. As 2chers have pointed out since the release of the picture drama, the name "Riri-sha" looks like it was made by shifting the characters in "Ruru-shu" one space up in the hiragana chart (though the "shi" in "sha" and "shu" were left intact)

**Again, not mentioned in this interview, but in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 this person is revealed to be... you guessed it...Tamaki.

2) (No official name given, but I like to think of this as Code Geass: Infinite Ryvius)

The entire Ashford Academy is brought aboard a ship (Avalon?) and Zero becomes captain. Lelouch Lamperouge enlists as a PO, and whenever Tamaki tries to bully the new guy, Zero, for whatever reason, gets mad at Tamaki. I wonder why indeed...

This scenario didn't survive very long, however, and it was finally decided that they had to use the "memory loss" option.

Some other things mentioned in the interview:

- As with Stage 18, Okouchi wrote the ending of Turn 5 without any real plans on what happens next. Morita: "[Okouchi] said: I'll think about it later." Yoshino: "Okouchi said, "I'm sure I'll think of something next week."" This is apparently the reason for Morita's (humorous) acknowledgement of Okouchi being a "real man".

- Though this is already pretty obvious, the writers had to speed up the tempo in R2 because from the very beginning they had intended for the first season to be equivalent to the national qualifiers, and the second to be the World Championships. However, because of the timeslot change, they were sent back to the national qualifiers.

WTF?! well i for one am glad things didn't become that way

161 pages of endless debates on whether lulu lives or dies! at the very least people rotate on the argument

i wonder what's the next interesting topic to come out we've had the bondage thing, the wheelchair mecha, the suitcase among others

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

C.C.'s final lines: 'The power of Geass brings one solitude. Well, that's not quite right. Isn't it, Lelouch?' And while saying that, she doesn't seem sad one bit and she isn't crying. I doubt she would be ecstatic is she had to spend eternity alone and on the run.

You could interpret it as either Lelouch and C.C. being together for eternity or that Lelouch was the one who was able to be break the cycle and bring peace and a world free from Geass.

Furthermore, you can't simply say Lelouch is dead from that frame. Who's to say C.C. isn't simply riding to where he is hiding - perhaps that's what the castle C.C. stares at as the final ending theme starts is meant to be about.

Either way, Lelouch was able to pull his plan off. Whether you want to believe he's alive or dead, that's up to you. I prefer to think he's alive and spending eternity with C.C. It's your right to pick which option you want to believe. Just don't go forcing it on everyone. And remember, the Japanese love open-ended endings.

Spoiler for other series open-ended endings that some people may not have seen:

Isn't the debate as to whether Spike lived or died at the very end of Cowboy Bebop still going? Or whether that was Lucy at the door at the very end of Elfen Lied?

Don't bust an artery over this. Just enjoy the ending for what it was and the series for what it was, be glad you got to see it all, then move on.

I'm just curious, do you believe you live forever after you die as well?

yes or no.

[Zero_Gravity]

I have a serious question, I've asked every source I have...
WHAT was the name of the BGM from when Suzaku stabbed Lelouch ti'll the speedy flashback ended?
here, lemme be more helpful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ526QbdlGM
from point 0:00 until 0:50

ITS DRIVING ME MAD! It was also in Episode 16 when Lelouch was asking C.C. what she does when she hurts inside, what soundtrack was it from x_x

[Spring_sakura111]

Didn't notice until now that Xingke died. Nobody noticed or did I just missed a post. What was his sickness again? Tuberculosis or something?

Oh, I'm new~

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

Originally Posted by FreezeGeass

I picked this up from another forum. I really, really hope it isn't true. All I can say is...WTF?

The original plans for R2:

Source: Okouchi x Yoshino x Morita interview included in R2 DVD/Bluray Booklet #1

- The "phantom episode 26": (Presumably before the timeslot change,) Okouchi had written 4 versions of this episode and the script had pretty much been approved. It was to have been a direct continuation of Stage 25; in this version, Lelouch actually wins against Suzaku. Lelouch then infiltrates Great Britannia, but then loses against the Emperor.

- After that, two scenarios were suggested:

1) The Prisoner President Arc (official name)

Lelouch is imprisoned, but every night he escapes (!?!?) and becomes the President (!?!?!?!?!?!?). Lelouch wins against Schneizel in the presidential election. No, seriously.

In this version, a girl* who looks exactly like Lelouch turns up to take his place, leading to a Black Knight** misunderstanding things ("Zero is actually a woman!") and falling in love with "Zero".

*Although it isn't mentioned in this interview, in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 it is revealed that this Lelouch-lookalike girl was to have been Lilycia (Gottwald), which would explain her name. As 2chers have pointed out since the release of the picture drama, the name "Riri-sha" looks like it was made by shifting the characters in "Ruru-shu" one space up in the hiragana chart (though the "shi" in "sha" and "shu" were left intact)

**Again, not mentioned in this interview, but in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 this person is revealed to be... you guessed it...Tamaki.

2) (No official name given, but I like to think of this as Code Geass: Infinite Ryvius)

The entire Ashford Academy is brought aboard a ship (Avalon?) and Zero becomes captain. Lelouch Lamperouge enlists as a PO, and whenever Tamaki tries to bully the new guy, Zero, for whatever reason, gets mad at Tamaki. I wonder why indeed...

This scenario didn't survive very long, however, and it was finally decided that they had to use the "memory loss" option.

Some other things mentioned in the interview:

- As with Stage 18, Okouchi wrote the ending of Turn 5 without any real plans on what happens next. Morita: "[Okouchi] said: I'll think about it later." Yoshino: "Okouchi said, "I'm sure I'll think of something next week."" This is apparently the reason for Morita's (humorous) acknowledgement of Okouchi being a "real man".

- Though this is already pretty obvious, the writers had to speed up the tempo in R2 because from the very beginning they had intended for the first season to be equivalent to the national qualifiers, and the second to be the World Championships. However, because of the timeslot change, they were sent back to the national qualifiers.

If that is true I'm glad it didn't turn out that way. Who said it would've been better if it was in its original timeslot.

[killbethy]

I think the last episode as a stand-alone episode were absolutely amazing and, yes, epic.

I have two qualms with the ending: 1. The first being that there were so many alternative routs to achieve world peace were previously presented. 2. The second being that world peace brought about by killing the common enemy is not something long withstanding and the issues that remain with "Zero."

1a. The major alternative solution for peace would be Lelouch simply conceding to the UFN's demands that he limits his voting privileges upon joining and acting dignified as the UFN Representative for Britannia. Since a requirement for joining the UFN is disabling the countries own army, the Black Knights would have also become the army for Britannia. Therefore, only one global military force would remain, forcing Schneizel and the Damocles to have no refuge or backup by any military force. Schneizel's plans with the Damocles would either of had to end or procede on the course that they did in the series. In that case, Schneizel would have become the common enemy of the world. The potential for Lelouch and Suzaku to board the Damocles and kill Schneizel and get rid of the Damocles would still be the same as the original ending. In essence, the world achieves peace since all its hatred is directed against Schneizel and is resolved through his death. Same results achieved.

1b. Schneizel planned to bring about world peace also by killing Lelouch, who was still deemed the common enemy of the world during the last battle. Yet, Lelouch condones his way of thinking as that of the "present," but in the end, he uses the same means as Schneizel to bring about peace (his death). I'm not quite sure how you can differentiate this as being an entirely separate train of thought to bring about "tomorrow," and really view the Zero Requiem as a unique plan that was the "only way." Lelouch first united the world under tyrannical rule after "winning" the battle, but Schneizel would have achieved the same thing if the Damocles had entered orbit and his plans to detonate FLEIA around the world had succeeded. He too would have united the world in that way under tyrannical rule (although it was argued that this rule would be by fear, Lelouch did the exact same thing by taking control of Damocles... he ruled by fear as well, shown by the crowds reaction when they say not to say anything negative about Lelouch for fear they will be killed). Defeating Schneizel after this and staging it as Zero as the victor, again, would have brought about the same type of peace that Lelouch achieved through his death by Zero.


2. Through our personal world history, it's easy to gather that simply ridding the world of a common enemy (IE. Hitler, Stalin) does not lead to everlasting unity, just as Schneizel pointed out, ambitions still remain. Although Lelouch recognizes this in that recording, he is portrayed as being too intelligent throughout the entire series to realistically believe that his death, even with all the world's hatred cast upon him, would lead to long-lasting peace. This is something Lelouch should also be able to identify with because the death of Charles did not end the cycle of hatred towards Britannia. Although Kallen and Toudo recognize the new Zero (Suzaku) as a different person, this doesn't mean that all of the people aware of his Geass do. Yet they readily except the existence of Zero again, despite the fact they initially betrayed him, and rally for him. Since Suzaku is bound to only live as Zero, there is no definite proof that this new Zero, or whether he is the same or not, does not also possess the power of Geass and is a threat in that regard. One information leak regarding the Geass could ruin to the destruction of the whole plan of the Zero Requiem post-mortem (? still up for debate) for Lelouch. Also, the acceptance of Nunnally is debatable, considering she was aboard the Damocles and it is unclear how many people knew how responsible she was for firing the FLEIAs in the battle... even something Ohgi condemned when apologizing for leading the Black Knights onto a battlefield dominated by FLEIA.



Just like in Chess, even if you checkmate the enemy's king and win the game, it doesn't mean that a new game can occur.



They succesfully rapped up the storyline for Lelouch and his involvement, plans, and desire to change the world. But they didn't truly reach an ending for the "Code Geass Universe", because just like in Gundam 00, there will always be people that will also oppose peace or seek power, starting the cycle once again. It would have been nice if they could have reached a definite conclusion for the Code Geass world they created and not just the storyline of Lelouch. It would have also been nice if the plot had played out so that the Zero Requiem was truly the only way to bring about the peace Lelouch desired, but previous episodes opened up too many alternative routes for achieving the same end.

[Zero_Gravity]

Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111

Didn't notice until now that Xingke died. Nobody noticed or did I just missed a post. What was his sickness again? Tuberculosis or something?

Oh, I'm new~

WOAH! Wait, he died?? When in the series did that happen???

[nutype]

Originally Posted by FreezeGeass

I picked this up from another forum. I really, really hope it isn't true. All I can say is...WTF?

The original plans for R2:

Source: Okouchi x Yoshino x Morita interview included in R2 DVD/Bluray Booklet #1

- The "phantom episode 26": (Presumably before the timeslot change,) Okouchi had written 4 versions of this episode and the script had pretty much been approved. It was to have been a direct continuation of Stage 25; in this version, Lelouch actually wins against Suzaku. Lelouch then infiltrates Great Britannia, but then loses against the Emperor.

- After that, two scenarios were suggested:

1) The Prisoner President Arc (official name)

Lelouch is imprisoned, but every night he escapes (!?!?) and becomes the President (!?!?!?!?!?!?). Lelouch wins against Schneizel in the presidential election. No, seriously.

In this version, a girl* who looks exactly like Lelouch turns up to take his place, leading to a Black Knight** misunderstanding things ("Zero is actually a woman!") and falling in love with "Zero".

*Although it isn't mentioned in this interview, in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 it is revealed that this Lelouch-lookalike girl was to have been Lilycia (Gottwald), which would explain her name. As 2chers have pointed out since the release of the picture drama, the name "Riri-sha" looks like it was made by shifting the characters in "Ruru-shu" one space up in the hiragana chart (though the "shi" in "sha" and "shu" were left intact)

**Again, not mentioned in this interview, but in Ura de Net Geass RETURNS #1 this person is revealed to be... you guessed it...Tamaki.

2) (No official name given, but I like to think of this as Code Geass: Infinite Ryvius)

The entire Ashford Academy is brought aboard a ship (Avalon?) and Zero becomes captain. Lelouch Lamperouge enlists as a PO, and whenever Tamaki tries to bully the new guy, Zero, for whatever reason, gets mad at Tamaki. I wonder why indeed...

This scenario didn't survive very long, however, and it was finally decided that they had to use the "memory loss" option.

Some other things mentioned in the interview:

- As with Stage 18, Okouchi wrote the ending of Turn 5 without any real plans on what happens next. Morita: "[Okouchi] said: I'll think about it later." Yoshino: "Okouchi said, "I'm sure I'll think of something next week."" This is apparently the reason for Morita's (humorous) acknowledgement of Okouchi being a "real man".

- Though this is already pretty obvious, the writers had to speed up the tempo in R2 because from the very beginning they had intended for the first season to be equivalent to the national qualifiers, and the second to be the World Championships. However, because of the timeslot change, they were sent back to the national qualifiers.

thanks for bringing this up but a lot of what you said is incoherent because you dont understand japanese.

Would be great to know what was said in the disk.

thanks though

From another interview i think 25 from S1 was meant to be the true last episode and I think Taniguchi wanted a hero-quest ending where the protagonist ends up where he was in ep1 (like in Berserk). This never happened though with a continuation to R2.

[Scep]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why would a change in timeslot affect anything? I mean, it cant be that they had to change their material so its more kids friendly right?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by killbethy

I think the last episode as a stand-alone episode were absolutely amazing and, yes, epic.

I have two qualms with the ending: 1. The first being that there were so many alternative routs to achieve world peace were previously presented. 2. The second being that world peace brought about by killing the common enemy is not something long withstanding and the issues that remain with "Zero."

1a. The major alternative solution for peace would be Lelouch simply conceding to the UFN's demands that he limits his voting privileges upon joining and acting dignified as the UFN Representative for Britannia. Since a requirement for joining the UFN is disabling the countries own army, the Black Knights would have also become the army for Britannia. Therefore, only one global military force would remain, forcing Schneizel and the Damocles to have no refuge or backup by any military force. Schneizel's plans with the Damocles would either of had to end or procede on the course that they did in the series. In that case, Schneizel would have become the common enemy of the world. The potential for Lelouch and Suzaku to board the Damocles and kill Schneizel and get rid of the Damocles would still be the same as the original ending. In essence, the world achieves peace since all its hatred is directed against Schneizel and is resolved through his death. Same results achieved.

Giving in to the UFN would have sowed the seeds of resentment between Britania (who become, in effect, 1/5 citizens) and the rest of the world composed of full citizens. And let's not even get into what kind of resolutions they could pass to make Britania pay.

1b. Schneizel planned to bring about world peace also by killing Lelouch, who was still deemed the common enemy of the world during the last battle. Yet, Lelouch condones his way of thinking as that of the "present," but in the end, he uses the same means as Schneizel to bring about peace (his death). I'm not quite sure how you can differentiate this as being an entirely separate train of thought to bring about "tomorrow," and really view the Zero Requiem as a unique plan that was the "only way." Lelouch first united the world under tyrannical rule after "winning" the battle, but Schneizel would have achieved the same thing if the Damocles had entered orbit and his plans to detonate FLEIA around the world had succeeded. He too would have united the world in that way under tyrannical rule (although it was argued that this rule would be by fear, Lelouch did the exact same thing by taking control of Damocles... he ruled by fear as well, shown by the crowds reaction when they say not to say anything negative about Lelouch for fear they will be killed). Defeating Schneizel after this and staging it as Zero as the victor, again, would have brought about the same type of peace that Lelouch achieved through his death by Zero.

To Schneizel, Lelouch's death was a beginning, and Fleija his endgame. To Lelouch, getting control of Damocles was a beginning, and his death the endgame. So, no, they're not the same. Besides, casting Schneizel as the bad guy could have proved difficult.

2. Through our personal world history, it's easy to gather that simply ridding the world of a common enemy (IE. Hitler, Stalin) does not lead to everlasting unity, just as Schneizel pointed out, ambitions still remain. Although Lelouch recognizes this in that recording, he is portrayed as being too intelligent throughout the entire series to realistically believe that his death, even with all the world's hatred cast upon him, would lead to long-lasting peace. This is something Lelouch should also be able to identify with because the death of Charles did not end the cycle of hatred towards Britannia.

The point wasn't everlasting peace. The point was to give people a new start, out of the world destroying spiral they were in. He left in charge people who had in common that they publicly were his "victims" and privately understood that he gave his life so they'd get a chance at peace. No, it won't last forever. But it'll be good while it does, and if they can achieve one year of peace, maybe they can try again and achieve two, and so on.

Although Kallen and Toudo recognize the new Zero (Suzaku) as a different person, this doesn't mean that all of the people aware of his Geass do. Yet they readily except the existence of Zero again, despite the fact they initially betrayed him, and rally for him. Since Suzaku is bound to only live as Zero, there is no definite proof that this new Zero, or whether he is the same or not, does not also possess the power of Geass and is a threat in that regard. One information leak regarding the Geass could ruin to the destruction of the whole plan of the Zero Requiem post-mortem (? still up for debate) for Lelouch. Also, the acceptance of Nunnally is debatable, considering she was aboard the Damocles and it is unclear how many people knew how responsible she was for firing the FLEIAs in the battle... even something Ohgi condemned when apologizing for leading the Black Knights onto a battlefield dominated by FLEIA.

The ones who knew about geass knew he was Lelouch. And understood, in the end, what he tried to do. The rest were kept completely in the dark. To them, Zero is a hero who keeps resurrecting when he's most needed.

As for the blame, they apparently successfully pushed everything onto Lulu. Just as planned.

[Spring_sakura111]

Originally Posted by Zero_Gravity

WOAH! Wait, he died?? When in the series did that happen???

Lol. Episode 25. It wasn't shown but it was implied. You don't see Xing ke with Tian zi anymore now do you? Even in the wedding picture, he isn't there. Remember that he keeps coughing out blood and asking for more time. I guess he died.

[Anh_Minh]

You see his mech! You don't see Tian Zi in mourning garb! So he's got to be alive.

^ because I was tired of arguing about Lelouch's status.

[pokeu]

Above is fairly obvious. Note also your remark about dark eye shadows been a sign of death. Immortals never recieve dark eye shadows when they are killed, as seen in previous instances of C.C. and V.V.'s deaths. Charles did not have dark eye shadows upon shooting himself either.

In truth, we couldn't tell from the scene. Just as with C.C.'s playback memmories, her eyes looked pretty dead to me, but thats subjective.

No evidence supporting this whatsoever. As has been earlier explained, Charles was shown to be immune to geass before he died. The animation used when Lelouch's geass was entering Charles' eyes before he shot himself was explicitly reused later in the episode when Lelouch tried to geass him again upon realizing he was immortal.

In truth, this is also too ambiguous to discern if he was immune to it or not. Otherwise viewers would be "HAHAHAHA LELOUCHE YOU FAILED"... but nope, we all thought he somehow got it in, but maybe it didn\t work? And would Lelouche be fooled as easily if some of us here weren't?

To complete the Ragnorok Connection. This was stated flat out in Turn 21.

Then why did C.C. go after Lelouche? She lost sight of what she wanted? Cared for the world? Been lying to everyone? Perfect fail of an immortal character? Things can be stated flat out in any of the turns and not make sense if taken as a whole. Sure in that particular turn it made sense, but its absolute rubbish if you ask me. She went after Lelouche so that the Ragnarok Connection would not be complete. She went after Lelouche because she actually thought about the world. She went for Lelouche because it was her own will to do it. Aww whatever, most probably a failed plot anyway.

This fact discourages the 'Code Geass" theory. If Codes do not require a 'signature' to transfer, i.e. some sort of marker which would indicate that the Code matches with a geass's contractor, such that Codes are generically inheritable to any geass, then there is no logical reason why inheriting a Code from another contractor would not eliminate your geass.

And did II say anything about needing Lelouche to keep his geass? No, in fact, I believe he lost it. =D

She would, however, have to lose her memories. This would be true in Charles' case too. In both cases, it didn't happepn.

No evidence for this. We cannot tell from V.V.'s almost dead state.

There's actually no proof for this statement. Dual geass eyes are not sufficient to complete the inheritance, as we saw in the case of Mao.

Hmm I thought they made it pretty clear that Mao didn't want C.C. to die, he wanted her 'alive'. Ironically enough... if C.C. wanted to give her code away, she could have done so with CHARLES... so whatever, that plot kind of failed too, just to jam in some action with.... "WHAT IF HE CAN READ YOUR MIND LELOUCHE!?" and how to beat it.

Her only resistance was some physical interference. Charles would likely have continued without her cooperation had Lelouch not destroyed the Sword of Akasha.

Thats pure speculation. She can take his code too no? In ths case, we cannot tell, too much ambiguity, more plot holes, sad to say, the series failed to cover up properly, whatever.

No. If he had done this they would have shown it. Note also that Marianne dies at the same time as Charles--this indicates both that it was Jupiter that killed them, not Lelouch, and that Charles' death had nothing to do with his Code.

And why would they if they want to keep it ambiguous? Truth is, the scene hardly made any sense other than.... quite clearly... Charles lunged at Lelouche and grabbed him with his right hand.. which bears his sigil of the code. For fun? yeah, whatever, keep fans guessing, so on so forth.

Here's a question. Why is Kallen happy? The man she loved is dead. Someone she'd been willing to die for. Could it be that she'd found something to live for? That she appreciated Lelouch's sacrifice for the world? Maybe she was looking forward to tomorrow. That sounds like it'd be what Lelouch wanted, doesn't it? That sound's pretty likely to be true.

Which seems to be the only valid point... and makes absolutely no sense for the series at all when we look at everything again. How did C.C. know that Lelouche would succeed? Was she a player? Was she the mastermind? Lelouche of the rebellion? She plotted the whole thing? She plotting the whole thing would be absolutely terrible... makes it look like Lelouche was used again, including Charles, Marianne, and EVERYONE who played.

In her mind shock memmory sharing with Lelouche in season 1, she stated that all she thought she had loved or loved her had faded into the flow of time. There is nothing but experience. Lelouche said that he would become a Warlock for her. Thats an alternative to her dying out.

But NO, she prefers to live alone in this case, with Lelouche dead(hence definitely not in the world of C), the world changed, and all "according to plan" if we assume thats what C.C. is thinking...

Which I would like to refute myself and refuse to believe that that is the case.

Hm...well, in that case... So then--maybe, just maybe--couldn't that be the same for C.C.? Shocking, I know, isn't it?!

As you said... indeed it is shocking. WOW Maybe we need some reality check and admit that code geass is indeed full of plotholes?

But actually, to end this:

Hahaha, you (and so many others) wish. The truth is, plot holes in this show though there may be, there are none as to Lelouch's death. The ending is perfectly unambiguous. Here, a present for you:

Spoiler for cart driver:

This is a zoomed in pic of your beloved wagondriver-chan. I printscreened it myself from my copy of Turn 25, but I really encourage you guys to all go check. The first thing I'd like to point out to you all is that wagondriver-chan is not masked at all. Sure he's wearing a pretty spiffy hat, but as you can clearly see the line for his mouth, you'll realize that there's nothing at all covering his face.

Yeah whatever, the case we should be discussing are plotholes to be exploited, given so much ambiguity all over apart from this guy's face, and I never really gave a crap about that tommorow rubbish of Lelouche, because he wasn't needed for it to happen. In such a story full of holes, you never know what is sure thing and what is rubbish.

Here's another one to swallow... about the death scenes argument. Suzaku should have died. There was no cockpit ejection. The Lancelot was never fitted with one, maybe then it was in the Albion, but whatever, in the scene of the explosion, it was clearly shown that nothing flew through the back of it with respect to the position of the KMF. If ya want a similar scene of death, in S1... Inoue was blown up in a similar manner, she remained dead. Countless others died in a similar manner as well... why did Suzaku survive? Live command by the geass does not grant bodily immunity.

The second thing, then, is something you should really be able to pick up following from that. Wagondriver has whiskers! White ones at that. Nice, scruffy, old-guy whiskers all over his firm jaw and manly chin. Ooh I wonder, what could that mean?

Wow, you win, nice pwnage eyes you've got there, wow. Even now I still feel a little blind for not being able to see his whiskers clearly... ahh some lighter textures over his mouth and under his nose... couldn't have been the angle of the sun even though the shadows casted by the horses heads were similar to that of his hat to his nose.

In reality, he wasn't masked at all. He needed a mask on all the time, even in the country to survive, whether or not he was alone, whatsoever. Lelouche kept C.C. in his plans, but totally out of the line of fire of the public by keeping her appearances off the media.

This is most probably your line of thought, or would be in attempt to justify C.C.'s apparent lack of disguise. And Jeremiahs...

Ok whatever.

So sorry, guys. That man is not Lelouch. If it brings you any consolation, though, I'll totally support this new C.C. x Old Peasant Dude from the Countryside for all eternity pairing if you guys decide that's really what she needs for happiness.

Yeah she must have anticipated or known that the old man was supposedly 'deaf' or something to be muttering something out loud with some one so close by, to talk about geass (ok maybe they don't no jack about that...) and... to show her approval of Lelouch(which the whole world cept those who knew him have already condemned beyond anything... as can be shown with Cornelia's line... "THE DEMON KING IS DEAD, RELEASE THE HOSTAGES AT ONCE!")

Whatever, if it was really an old man... they needn't have chucked his face out in the next shot. And besides... i'm now downloading a higher res version of the episode... to show clearly what a lower res version already did.... there is indeed a white mask like little bit of cloth in the inside of his collar. There is no harm is showing bits of his gruffy whiskered face in this shot... so why did the animators do it? Fun? More plot holes exploitation? whatever?

Spoiler for whatever:

[tzia_n]

Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111

Lol. Episode 25. It wasn't shown but it was implied. You don't see Xing ke with Tian zi anymore now do you? Even in the wedding picture, he isn't there. Remember that he keeps coughing out blood and asking for more time. I guess he died.

nah, coughing out blood was his way of menstruating we never really see him die so he could still be alive out there but yeah, most probably dead