Are shoujo manga/anime really anti-feminist

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Indeed, but very few mangaka have "great" execution.

What makes you say that? Are you drawing from your own reading experiences or from others' reading experiences?

I think that if you think critically, you'll find that you can only put about 10% of the manga out there into the "great" category. Go and take a random sample of manga, read a bit, and then honestly ask yourself "would I reccommend this as a 'great manga' to a friend with similiar tastes to myself?" I bet you'd only manage 10%.

Da hell man, NO! XD I don't have the time to waste on doing that...just to prove a point. And how would I know that I picked something bad instead of something good? I think a random sample of manga could give you a thousand different answers, depending on which ones you pick.

But it's also that studios put more effort into movies that appeal to men, and less into those that appeal to women. And the industry as a whole is very male dominated.

This I do agree with. Sucks to be us, doesn't it? I'm more fond of the "unisex"-type of movies, you know, like all the series based on fantasy books and.....amusement park rides. I think stuff like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or Pirates of the Caribbean works well with both sexes and all different ages...which is probably why they're such huge hits.
except with my mum who "doesn't like all that violence!!"fffffffffffffffffffft

Obviously someone like Michael Bay... Not so much.

Words cannot describe how much the man disgusts me. He obviously views women as nothing but sex objects when it comes to directing movies. And his sense of humor is the most tasteless one I've ever encountered in film....my word.....the dialogue, the subject matter...he needs to freaking GROW UP.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Words cannot describe how much the man disgusts me. He obviously views women as nothing but sex objects when it comes to directing movies. And his sense of humor is the most tasteless one I've ever encountered in film....my word.....the dialogue, the subject matter...he needs to freaking GROW UP.

.........

immature content =/= immature creator.

Bay knows exactly who and what demographics to cater to, so he directs the film to appease them. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Attributing market content's characteristics to that of personal, private characteristics is far more deserving of "grow the hell up".
It would be more fitting to call him "a whore" rather than immature.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by aohige

.........

immature content =/= immature creator.

Bay knows exactly who and what demographics to cater to, so he directs the film to appease them. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Attributing market content's characteristics to that of personal, private characteristics is far more deserving of "grow the hell up".
It would be more fitting to call him "a whore" rather than immature.

In other words, he's a sellout.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

In other words, he's a sellout.

As much as i dislike how he portrays women...he's rich at least partly because of it. And i'm sure as hell he doesn't care however much we badmouth him here for it.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

As much as i dislike how he portrays women...he's rich at least partly because of it.

All the more reason to dislike him?

[EDIT]

Just read the first volume of Kyou Koi Wo Hajimemasu.
OH MAI GAWD.

THIS IS THE SHIT THAT'S POPULAR!?
IT SUCKS.
Worst case of anti-feminist manga I've ever SEEN!!
Girl: Give give give give give
Boy: TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE MOLEST CONTROL MANIPULATE
Girl: I think I love you!
Me: WHAT. THE. FACK.

THIS is the exact reason people hate on shoujo. This is the type of crap that gives shoujo a terrible name and would make anyone who is new to shoujo go "WTFISTHISSHIT" when they pick it up.
Deeeeeeesgusting!
HoneyxHoney Drops=just as terrible.

[GreyZone]

I am generally annoyed at this "polarizing" concept. Most Anime/Manga are either Feminist or Anti-Feminist.

And even worse: quite a lot are BOTH (anime/manga where "females are always right even if they are not", but at the same time making them sex objects, see: To-Love-Ru)
and two bad things do NOT equal one good thing.


The problem is of course the "narrative perspective" of an Anime/Manga:
As it is part of the Japaneases' Ideology to always appear as humble, this is reflected in Anime/Manga with the main characters who the reader/watcher is supposed to empathize with (this is what a lot of people told me at least, so take it with a grain of salt, however if this is true, it would explain the reason for the Feminism/Anti-Feminism in Anime/Manga)

Also a thing that I noted that gets me FURIOUS every time I see it, is if people say that "Feminism = Gender Equality". This is not just wrong, this is Bulls**t.

Gender Equality is actually called Egalitarianism. My problem: too few authors apply Egalitarianism in their works... and using both Feminism and Anti-Feminism at the same time is also NOT egalitarian.

But it seems many authors don't care... they need sex objects, but don't want to appear as sexistic and also want to stay inside their ideology... result: 95% of Romantic-Comedy-Harems. But at the same time i have to commend the other 5% for going against the trend!

And on the other side the whole shoujo and "reverse-Harems". Well here we again have the ideology issue and... the cliché (or "tendency", depending on how you view it, but I will not go into it further here) for women to "expect the man to act first", which drags the main heroine into a passive position and makes the male love interest seem like a jerk / be a jerk.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I am generally annoyed at this "polarizing" concept. Most Anime/Manga are either Feminist or Anti-Feminist.

And even worse: quite a lot are BOTH (anime/manga where "females are always right even if they are not", but at the same time making them sex objects, see: To-Love-Ru)
and two bad things do NOT equal one good thing.

Since when has any serious (re: non-fictional) feminist proposed that women should always be right even when they aren't? It feels to me like you're running off a stereotype of what feminism is and not what it actually is.

But it seems many authors don't care... they need sex objects, but don't want to appear as sexistic and also want to stay inside their ideology... result: 95% of Romantic-Comedy-Harems. But at the same time i have to commend the other 5% for going against the trend!

Speaking as an occassional amateur author, I have never felt the urge to make a female character "right" to compensate for something sexual and I doubt your average harem writer does either. I have gotten the urge to make a female character right because it actually felt more natural - and I can't really trace where I got that idea idea, so it's clearly something I've picked up subconciously somewhere. Not from feminist literature though, since I've never read any that contained such an idea.

As for harem anime - while the fact the genre is based around having multiple, attractive women for the male lead to hang out presents some problems from a feminist perspective, I don't believe 95% of harem anime sexually objectify their characters. Sexualization and sexual objectification are not the same thing - the later implies reduction of the character to their sexuality or at the very least excessive concentration on it, not mere expression of it. In general, if a harem anime is sexually objectifying its characters, I'm going having some misgivings about having chosen to watch and I'm a fan of the genre. I don't run into that problem that often.

Which isn't to say that sexual objectification doesn't exist in the genre, because, all that being said, there still are quite a few shows I have misgivings about watching. Sexual objectification is what I see as one of the weak points of the portrayal of women in seinen, with the over-romanticization fo traditional gender roles in some works being another. On the other hand, I'd consider the variety of female characters and personalities (compared to other media targetting young men) and tendency to give female characters storylines that are actually matter (again, mainly comparing to other media targetting young men here) would be things I consider major strengths of seinen. Can't speak as much to other genres as I'm not as familiar with them.

[Archon_Wing]

Nana.

/thread

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I don't like shoujo style much because in most cases we have a useless heroine surrounded by bunch of guys. Girls never stand out in that genre, they are plain for biggest part and have crushed on the most ridiculous choices.

The only cases I've seen where it wasn't too bad was with Ouran and The Story of Saiunkuoku(two stories that have the best female MCS ever) because the female MCS were unique and could go toe-to toe with the males. Or in Ouran's case, Haruhi was smarter than Tamaki and co. at times....

I love Hakuoki, but I was so disappointed that Chizuru was nothing more than wallpaper when she wasn't mooning over Hijikata.

[Fuyuno]

I wish I can see the shoujo or josei equivalent of School Days or anything quite like it. At least it break the mold that we don't like about stereotypical shoujo shows.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Fuyuno

I wish I can see the shoujo or josei equivalent of School Days or anything quite like it. At least it break the mold that we don't like about stereotypical shoujo shows.

I hope nothing else like the School Days anime exists anywhere ever.

Repeating that show and reversing the gender roles would not be edgy or groundbreaking, it would be crap. Just like the original show is.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

I hope nothing else like the School Days anime exists anywhere ever.

Repeating that show and reversing the gender roles would not be edgy or groundbreaking, it would be crap. Just like the original show is.

Agreed with Kud on this.

Turn School Days shoujo and we wind up with a whore who has sex with every guy she comes in contact with, a love interest who kills her for cheating on him, and another needy love interest who goes insane and sails off on a boat with her decapitated head.

.................this would be good, why?

[Cosmic Eagle]

I seriously think that people who can't stand the themes in shoujo demographic should simply avoid it....because why? Everything here is about polar preferences and double standards.

Many shoujo romances are....quite bad, but yet, many of those aimed at male otaku get a free pass when they are no better. If your differences with the genre are that irreconcilable, it's better to stop moaning about it and just not contact it. Else it's like complaining why the color blue is the way it is because you hate the color blue

[Chiibi]

On the other hand, many shoujo romances are quite good.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

On the other hand, many shoujo romances are quite good.

I know....I see plenty of them myself....both BL and straight


Is just that in general if you throw a random dart at the shelves, the chance of it hitting a crappy one is higher. Not as bad as the amount of plotless moe harem in light novels but yeah...

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Agreed with Kud on this.

Turn School Days shoujo and we wind up with a whore who has sex with every guy she comes in contact with, a love interest who kills her for cheating on him, and another needy love interest who goes insane and sails off on a boat with her decapitated head.

.................this would be good, why?

Spoiler for school days ending spoiler:

Every guy except her own actual boyfriend(!)

[NoemiChan]

Are shoujo manga/anime really anti-feminist

Mostly in romance, and ecchi...

Romance. Many portraits women as easy to get, dumb and innocent that is easily manipulated.

Ecchi. Do I have to say it?

I can't say I hate it... But too much is too much..