Code Geass Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[FozzieBlair]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

LOL i noticed that too after rewatching XD and yep listening to it time and time again he does indeed say "bastard" XD but suzaku is too thick to get mad lolz :3

I agree the lack of reaction was a bit suprising, but, well Suzaku IS a sort of "bastard"

An illegitimate Brittanian, a mixed breed if you will. Not by birth but by nationality or allegiance.

So it may not be that the little hippocryte (no I don't like him -.-) is too thick but resigned to the fact he is a sort of half-breed.

[quina]

no reason someone can't recognize her "lover" with half of his face covered. If you covered your mouth and went to see your brother. Will he recognize you?
OF COURSE HE WILL.

Putting that aside. It is still unclear whether she knows it is Lulu or not. So believe whatever you like... In fact...(next episode spoiler)..

Spoiler:

Next ep (from spoiler)
She didn't took a shot and ran away. Lulu chase after her not sure whether she figure out who he was or not. CC appears and ask him whether what will he do? He did not answer. Shirley met with a man Mao, and he .......
Lulu caught up, Shirley then....

According to the spoiler, it SEEMS like she KNOW to it Lulu. Since she didn't shoot... but oh well, I want to see it myself.

[Lumir]

Im dissapointed. Shirley being there and seeing lulu was just to fake. How would she have know he was in that unit? Even in that emo state, she carlessly went out into the open battle field?

Man it was just to scripted. It would have been better if she saw him earlier when he had his mask of...sigh.

Ok ep, but i somewhat feel let down.

[Dagger]

1) She didn't know it was going to become a full-fledged battlefield (and she mostly stayed out of the way, so she must have been doing something right).

2) She wasn't going after "Lulu's" unit--she was going after Zero. And from her vantage point, a blind monkey would've been able to figure out that Zero was in that unit, what with all of the high-decibel name calling going on between him, Cornelia, Kallen and Suzaku.

[DragoonKain3]

The way I see it, Suzaku does not have respect from Brittania yet. And how does one gather respect in the military? Same as in the other militaries, by following orders. Even if that meant killing people (but not civilians). Unlike Shiro of F/Sn, never did he say that he wouldn't kill anyone at all, and unlike Kira of GSeed, he would kill if thats the best course of action that would help his goal, as evidenced by his compliance of killing the Japanese forces in this episode. Still, he still has a heavy heart doing despite the fact that they are terrorists.

Would Suzaku's method kill less innocent civilians in the future? Debateable, but so far Lulu has been responsible for the death of a lot of civilians but Suzaku, if my memory serves me right, hasn't killed a single one. He would rather die than to be part of that.

Which in the end preventing civilian casualties is all that matters to Suzaku. From the beginning, Suzaku always has believed that the 'ends don't justify the means'. He wouldn't kill a civilian even if ordered to even if it means his death; he'll be glad to, since he doesn't mind dying for the sake of others (namely, harmless civilians). He said so himself when he was rescued, which is echoed by putting himself in line when Lulu was found with CC. And judging by him forsaking his status with the Japanese people by becoming an honored Britannian, he would even forsake his pride and social status if it means saving even one more civilian life from harm.

As for Suzaku working for a bad gov't, it's the lesser of the two evils. In the beginning he was given a choice: to join Zero to destroy Brittania, or to go back to work for Brittania. His impression of Zero was that Zero was willing to sacrifice innocent civilians, no matter who they are. Brittania on the other hand is willing to sacrifice Numbers, but not pure born Brittanians as evidenced by their hesitation to give Suzaku up back in the Clovis incident AND the hotel incident. So it really isn't any surprise he did go back to Brittania, because he would cause less civilian casualties by trying to change Brittania's eagerness to sacrifice non-pure borns than if he were to joing Zero's crusade to utterly destroy Brittania. Heck, I would too if I had the choice.

So I don't see why people hate Suzaku so much, much less call him a hypocrite. All he ever said was that the means that Zero is using is not the right way to do it, nothing more, nothing less. Which he is right on all accounts, since so far his way hasn't caused him to stain his hands with civilian blood. Nothing hypocritical about that. And I don't recall Suzaku ever saying that Zero was a murderer; anyone can give me the episode number and around what time did he say that?

I mean really, what's the reason why people think Suzaku is a hypocrite?

[Sinestra]

C.C pointed out to Lulu everything i was talking about from ep 12. But in her own reminded him that he must be resolute no matter what, its too late for him to turn back. But the way she said dont disappoint me gave me the creeps.

Suzaku manages to irritate me again. The first time was he was dense to notice that he was called a bastard twice and the second time it was used as if it was his name. Also, that idealistic bullshit he was crying about at Shirley's fathers funeral. Using the wrong methods with change anything. who is to say what the right methods are and who is he to judge. Yet in the beginning of the series he was willing to go into battle in the ghetto and displace people who had no where else to go. Then he was willing to fire on the JLF soldiers who could not fight back. The way he is now he is just a dog of the military he is a soldier and solider's follow orders. He is contradicting him self just because he does not agree with Zero's methods. The reason why i identify with Zero is at least he aknowledges that he is taking lives and that he must walk the path of carnage and he admits that he will bare the sin for what he doing. Suzaku is just whining because he does not know how to go about get his ideals to come to light. when he presents an actual way to move forward with out fighting then maybe i will start to respect him.

Shirley showing up in the middle fight really screwed things up. As cold as Zero can be especially since we just watched him blow up that tanker to confuse the enemy. There is no way he would fire with Shirley in the line of fire. Suzaku and Kallen resume their previous battle and it seems like Kallen has a new found spirit if Suzaku is not careful she will win since she is protecting Zero.

Now the real question is weather Shirley discover Zero is Lulu? will she shoot? or will she get geassed? Next episode title is interesting Geass Vs. Geass WTF.

[flou]

Actually, Suzaku calls Zero a murderer at the end of episode 13. But, I do agree with you on Suzaku, although he is hypocritical at times. He's only doing what he thinks is best for the people and as of yet, he still hasn't killed a civilian, unlike Zero.

[Trax]

Suzaku strikes again. That outburst at the funeral was terribly annoying, although he was actually correct about a few things. It just wasn't the time and place for it though. Perhaps he will finally start to realize his situation after hearing that Britannian officer's instructions and Cecile's reminder that he's a professional soldier.

For a while it seemed like Lelouche might become more considerate, but instead he turned total bastard by making it seem that the JLF selfdestructed their ship. That was as brilliant as it was evil, although when you think about it it was probably one of the few ways to gain an advantage there. Hadn't they joined the fray at all then all except the JLF General would have been killed. The result could have been even better if he waited longer but in that case he would lose his credibility among the OoBK.

[Darkeyesrina]

To Lumir & Magus

Please watch the episode carefully or read the full threat before you make any comment. Shirley was taken there by Villeta because she told her that Lelouch was possibly a member of the Order of the Black Knights. Villeta was using her as a bait knowing that this operation was underway and Cornelia will eb there to see which fish will pick up. Now Shirley decided to walk up to the point in which the fight was raging.

Personally I loved this episode. Character development for Lelouch, and a subtle bits for Suzaku and Karen.

[mugener]

oop, wrong thread. :x

[DragoonKain3]

@Sinestra
While he did not say so overtly, Suzaku from both his actions and what can be implied so far is that he wants to change Brittania with minimal to no civilian deaths in his hands. So far, he's doing quite well in that department and for sure much better than Zero at the moment, and thats why he can say his method is better than Zero's.

In the beginning he did fight in the Ghetto, but he was only fighting against the terrorists. As for the displacement of people, it wasn't really him that did that? Mind if you can find the episode number and around what time, because I'm having a hard time finding it at all.

And him firing on the JLF people who couldn't fight back... but they did fight back. Sure they were hopelessly outmatched and they did say they surrender, but their actions don't follow their words because they were STILL firing back and STILL moving away. Where was their white flag and hands in the air?

He might be a dog of a military right now, but that's only because he still hasn't risen to the top where he can start changing Brittania from within. First he has to gain rank, and in order to accomplish that, it would be to obey orders. However, that doesn't mean he'll obey any order; any direct order to harm a civilian will be refused by Suzaku.



@murderer part at end of eps 13
I must have missed that, since I was too busy enjoying the action scenes.

Still, last time I checked, we don't call our war veterans murderers just because they killed people. So why should Suzaku be any different, since all we've seen him 'kill' are combatants? Sure Suzaku was wrong on calling Zero a murderer, because intent to kill and actually causing the death both needs to be present in order to be one. The former was missing in the Narita incident, and the latter was missing during the funeral of Clovis incident. Suzaku calling a Zero a murderer just makes Suzaku someone who's misinformed (don't know what murderer actually means), someone who assumes too much (he might assumed Zero actually knew that there was a chance that his plan could've caused death in Narita), or someone who gets too emotional (he might have just said that out of the heat of the moment). That does not make him a hypocrite though.

So again, I ask, why are people calling Suzaku a hypocrite? When and where did his words contradict his actions? I'm curious to know, because I either forget or miss these things all the time, like the 'murderer' comment in this episode.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Darkeyesrina

To Lumir & Magus

Please watch the episode carefully or read the full threat before you make any comment...

Um, and what part of my post contradicted any of what you said? Just because I didn't see the need to describe the entire situation in detail doesn't mean I was unaware of why Shirley ended up there in the first place.

[Plan 36]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

@Sinestra
While he did not say so overtly, Suzaku from both his actions and what can be implied so far is that he wants to change Brittania with minimal to no civilian deaths in his hands. So far, he's doing quite well in that department and for sure much better than Zero at the moment, and thats why he can say his method is better than Zero's.

...

He might be a dog of a military right now, but that's only because he still hasn't risen to the top where he can start changing Brittania from within. First he has to gain rank, and in order to accomplish that, it would be to obey orders. However, that doesn't mean he'll obey any order; any direct order to harm a civilian will be refused by Suzaku.

Are you sure?

[LCeh]

I want to pose a question: Do you think Suzaku will rebel against Britannia as he gains power?

So far, he seems like a very loyal soldier to Britannia, for whatever reason I don't know, since he is the son of the Prime Minister of Japan.

I personally DON'T think he is going to rebel against Britannia as that's something that goes against his character. But if he doesn't rebel, what can he do? From what I have seen, Britannia runs a royal system where the throne is inherited, not through accomplishments. If he doesn't rebel, he still won't have any say in how the country should be run, no matter how long he works for them.

Maybe he has some other plans, like having a close relationship with one of the royals and then manipulate him/her or try to persuade him/her into not going into wars all the time, but either way, he is very naive.

IMO, he is at the wrong place if he thinks he can change the world without making sacrifices, especially in a system where you can't gain control of the country through working hard and fighting for the country. He will always be the royal's soldier, or officier, as far as I can tell. He should get out of this whole war business if he doesn't want to kill anyone. He should be EXPECTED to kill innocent people when asked, since he is in the freaking army, just like how Lulu should have EXPECTED to hurt the love ones of those who die in wars.

Now, I am not a rebel, I am not saying people should do whatever they want to achieve their goals and disregard the consequences. But if I was Suzaku, I SHOULD have realized that when I serve in the army, I will be killing people, and so to consider himself as the heroic one and Zero is the evil one seems pretty ironic to me, considering that it is Britannia who constantly reaches out and go for war.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

He might be a dog of a military right now, but that's only because he still hasn't risen to the top where he can start changing Brittania from within. First he has to gain rank, and in order to accomplish that, it would be to obey orders. However, that doesn't mean he'll obey any order; any direct order to harm a civilian will be refused by Suzaku.

That's the thing though, he hasn't encountered yet any of those situations.

Cornelia's first operation against Zero was to deal with another ghetto to lure him out and fortunately for Suzuka, he was not part of that operation. In the following operations though Cornelia actually went ahead and ordered an evacuating order for the civilians from battlefields which is a major contrast to how she probably would've done it.

Are you sure?

He put himself in line for Lelouch and CC and was willing to die to save the elevens and Honorary Britannians from being persecuted had he joined Zero. As Lelouch has stated, he hasn't changed at all, he's always putting himself before others, much like Euphie.

So again, I ask, why are people calling Suzaku a hypocrite? When and where did his words contradict his actions? I'm curious to know, because I either forget or miss these things all the time, like the 'murderer' comment in this episode.

He hasn't actually. All he's killed so far are enemy combatants. Zero fortunately has saved him that trouble But then again he'd be dealing with enemy prisoners, not civilians.

Do you think Suzaku will rebel against Britannia as he gains power?

Why rebel when you got power within the organization? To do that he will cause a civil war which will lead to deaths which Suzuka is trying to avoid. If he's at the top he's basically going to have a degree of control on how things will run.

[Plan 36]

The thing is, this world's politics are very much like our world (or close enough), and there isn't anyone in history who could convince a monarch/dictator to change his evil way through peaceful means. The only way to change a corrupted government is to overthrow it and create a new one.

I don't have anything against Suzaku's goal (I think think it's stupid), but when you join a gang of murderous racist and proclaim yourself a saint. Well, that's another story entirely, and I hate him for it.

[coldwarm]

I have a question for you all.

Let's say everyone is like suzaku, no terrorism occurs. How does suzaku rise in rank if that is the case in the military or even political stature.

Why rebel when you got power within the organization? To do that he will cause a civil war which will lead to deaths which Suzuka is trying to avoid. If he's at the top he's basically going to have a degree of control on how things will run.

You made the code geass world so easy. Being a lap dog of the military can get you that much political power. It will be easier for him to just quit the military and build his relationship with euphemia which has more political power than he will ever get.

Overall, the emperor doesn't need to listen to anyone on how to rule his world...

[ZombieSheep]

Is it just me or is Lulu's tactic seem all the same or at least very similar.

And it seem to be increasingly less effective and throw him into worse condition each time he uses it.

First time he has to eject but achieve his goal regardless

Second time he has to eject but was caught anyways, C.C. saves him

This time around he didn't even get to eject and now is bleeding from the head, worse that his identity is risk being exposed.

I would love to see Lulu adapt new tactics that deals more with troop formation and maneuvering instead of the make big bang and rush them style.

But as long as Lulu can't effectively counter Lancelot, rushing is probably his only option. As I personally can't think of any good tactic against something ultra fast and pwns anything that gets in the way, other than say deploy faster and get things done before "it" shows up.

So, by the looks of things, unless Lulu do something new, he is just going to get beat up even more, his situation looks increasingly bleak right now. I hope it doesn't last for the rest of the season, as he become increasingly evil with each defeat. I really don't want him to end up like Light from death note.

Cornelia's first operation against Zero was to deal with another ghetto to lure him out and fortunately for Suzuka, he was not part of that operation. In the following operations though Cornelia actually went ahead and ordered an evacuating order for the civilians from battlefields which is a major contrast to how she probably would've done it.

As for the Cornelia evacuating the city before invading, I'm pretty sure that's a Britannian city as the shot just before the land slide show it's not really crappy looking like where elevens lived. If it were an 11 city, I'm not so sure she'll would have spared them. The only other factor would be Euphie participating in the battle and perhaps has influence her sister to be more humane to 11s than usual.

[Plan 36]

He hasn't actually. All he's killed so far are enemy combatants. Zero fortunately has saved him that trouble But then again he'd be dealing with enemy prisoners, not civilians.

Well, he is killing his own freaking people here, not some "enemy combatants" as you put it, or did they stop being his compatriot when they became the 11s and/or picked up arms to drive the invaders from their country and/or he became a 'honorary' Brittanian?

Where I come from we have this thing we call "patriotism", but I guess it's not as exciting as working for the people who live off your people's misery, is it?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by coldwarm

I have a question for you all.

Let's say everyone is like suzaku, no terrorism occurs. How does suzaku rise in rank if that is the case in the military or even political stature.

Well then there would be no story now would there? How would Lelouch go against the Britannian Empire when he has no support because if there's no terrorism, then the populace is more or less docile and has no problems with the Empire, which in turn would be treating them well.

You made the code geass world so easy. Being a lap dog of the military can get you that much political power. It will be easier for him to just quit the military and build his relationship with euphemia which has more political power than he will ever get.

Of course it's anime

Though I'm questioning the use of the phrase "lap dog"

If Suzuka had done exactly what Jeremiah asked him to do and confess to killing Clovis, wouldn't that make him a lap dog? Since he's following him needlessly for Jeremiah's own political motives.

The closest thing would probably be where Cornelia wanted him to act as "bait" in that JLF hijacking scenario even though he turned it around for her.

Other than that the rest were either Suzuka's disregard for orders or just simply straightfoward military orders.

Overall, the emperor doesn't need to listen to anyone on how to rule his world...

You know the Emperor's words on "Survival of the fittest" literally says, "Shoot me." Plus, he's 62 years old, just watch, he'll die of a heart attack or something.

As for the Cornelia evacuating the city before invading, I'm pretty sure that's a Britannian city as the shot just before the land slide show it's not really crappy looking like where elevens lived. If it were an 11 city, I'm not so sure she'll would have spared them. The only other factor would be Euphie participating in the battle and perhaps has influence her sister to be more humane to 11s than usual.

Actually as Lelouch stated Cornelia would've gone in guns blazing in the JLF hotel incident had it not been for Euphie being there.

But of course, the fact that she allows Euphie that control still warrents something. I'm not sure it's a britannian city though since it's in an area heavily under the influence of the JLF front but I could be wrong.

Well, he is killing his own freaking people here, not some "enemy combatants" as you put it, or did they stop being his compatriot when they became the 11s and/or picked up arms to drive the invaders from their country and/or he became a 'honorary' Brittanian?

Where I come from we have this thing we call "patriot", but I guess it's not as exciting as working for the people who live off your people's misery, is it?

Well like it or not he made the decision to join the army. As Cecile stated, he's a professional soldier, thus, those JLF are enemy combatants. I'm just being realistic here. This is why I like characters like Cecile, Lloyd, and CC.

As I would put it bluntly, Japan is dead, as Lelouch and Cornelia would put it, those guys are nothing but ancient relics. (BTW I'm going by their POV here). You'd think those terrorists attacks make a huge difference in the long run?